Up grading to a new trike

[Big Tom]

As my title says, I am looking into getting a new trike to add an e-assist system to.

I currently have a delta trike (2010 hase lepus) with rear shocks (single at seat). I have a front hub ( MeZee350F_L10 ) and not too worried about high powered motors. I am looking at getting a full suspension trike. My main question is .... is there serious issues with suspension especially with suspension on the front forks with a front hub.

I am looking for guidance to help bypass possible future issues. I remember back over 10 years ago it was recommended to not put a hub motor on forks with suspension as the fork tube had a tendency to fail. Have things improved with these forks or was it actually a real issue.

Thanks, Tom

 

[amberwolf]

The main problem with suspension vs hubmotors is any decent suspension uses some form of cast alloy dropouts, which are not designed to handle any of the forces a hubmotor axle places on them. Good torque arms, correctly installed, will deal with that, or for high torque systems the entire dropout could be removed and a slit tube made with pinching/clamping dropouts integral to them; the tube gets clamped / epoxied over the stanchion tubes in place of the original dropouts.

The secondary problem is that whenever the motor is applying torque, it twists the stanchions against hte support tubes of the fork that they slide on, and can cause the bushings to bind while this is happening, which prevent the suspension from working (or makes it less effective). If the motor isn't operating it doesn't happen, but during acceleration or braking it's at it's worst.

If the fork's bushings are well enough designed and lubricated, it'll be less of a problem than with the cheap ones that usually use cheap plastic bushings, but it might still be enough of an issue to cause it to not operate as designed.




If you like your current trike but just want to add front suspension, then depending on it's design you may be able to do this to it instead of replacing the trike, though it will likely take some hefty modification of the frontend if it looks like the one below, as you'd have to change the "keel" tube so it goes upward far enough to place it's headtube high enough and at the correct angle to allow a suspension fork to fit in there and to give the correct angles for everything for the right trail and offset, etc. to not change the handling of the trike (much).

 

[Big Tom]

............
The secondary problem is that whenever the motor is applying torque, it twists the stanchions against hte support tubes of the fork that they slide on, and can cause the bushings to bind while this is happening, which prevent the suspension from working (or makes it less effective). If the motor isn't operating it doesn't happen, but during acceleration or braking it's at it's worst.

If the fork's bushings are well enough designed and lubricated, it'll be less of a problem than with the cheap ones that usually use cheap plastic bushings, but it might still be enough of an issue to cause it to not operate as designed.

Thank you.

I do use a torque arm on my current setup. I have even thought of applying a torque arm to both forks. I am not sure if that would be as beneficial as I think.

I was worried about "torque spin" of one part of the fork inside the the outer sleeve of the shock. One of the delta trikes I am looking at is the hase cross and kett. I have not personally seen any of these with suspension so I am not too sure as to the quality of parts there.

I am getting older and wanting to see if I can get a smoother ride, especially for touring. My trike currently has no front suspension (other than Big Apple tires). I have also been told that the newer rear suspension (independent rear, both wheel) is much better then what I currently have. My trike is about wore out and I am thinking of using my old trike for winter riding (new trike no salt and snow).

I am still unsure about a front wheel hub and shocks.

Thanks again, Tom

 

[offGridDownUnder]

I am looking into getting a new trike to add an e-assist system to.

You mentioned your main question, but also mentioned "possible future issues" so I'm wondering what your constraints are.

Are you decided about:

• Delta vs Tadpole?
• Re-using your current motor?
• Mid-drive vs Hub drive (or even stoke monkey)?
• Load carrying?
• Towing?
• Off-road?

No pressure, you needn't reply, I'm just curious. Engineering is the process of meeting constraints, and some of us do it for fun.

Does anyone make a trike like you post, but with suspension?

 

[Papa]

Amberwolf's response was, as usual, detailed and spot-on.

One of the delta trikes I am looking at is the hase cross and kett. I have not personally seen any of these with suspension so I am not too sure as to the quality of parts there

Hase does offer a front suspension fork. IIRC, it's a Spinner 300. (installed images on their website).

As a Delta pilot, I don't use, or openly recommend front suspension forks on Deltas. For a slight improvement in high speed handling, perhaps. Why?... It's because the Delta's CoG (typically 33f/66r), places the rider well behind the front wheel, where road vibrations are least felt. I do, however, use carbon fiber handle bars which dramatically suppresses chip-seal vibrations (not to mention, virtually eliminates much of the pain from my tendonitis). YMMV

 

[Big Tom]

You mentioned your main question, but also mentioned "possible future issues" so I'm wondering what your constraints are.

Are you decided about:

• Delta vs Tadpole?
• Re-using your current motor?
• Mid-drive vs Hub drive (or even stoke monkey)?
• Load carrying?
• Towing?
• Off-road?

No pressure, you needn't reply, I'm just curious. Engineering is the process of meeting constraints, and some of us do it for fun.

Does anyone make a trike like you post, but with suspension?

Let's see if I can answer your questions.
- I am leaning towards a delta trike. My current trike is a delta (over 13 years and many tens of thousands of miles) and I am comfortable with that style. In the past I had a quad and disliked having to deal with front wheels, keeping them true. I guess it is just personal preference but not married to it.
- my current hub is in a 16" wheel and I believe that I will have to go with a 20" front wheel. The 16" wheel models do not have the features that I am looking for. Plus I believe I will be using the current trike as my winter riding trike (like to keep new trike out of the snow and salt).
- I am not looking for a mid-drive as I do not want my motor tied into the drivetrain. If there is an issue in the drivetrain, my e-assist is down as well, with a hub motor it can still get me home if needed.
- my trike is my transportation, getting groceries, getting to appointments and some touring so I do pull a small converted kids trailer to assist.
- off-road ... not like mountain bike trails off-roading, but yes I do travel off of paved surfaces. Many trails here are gravel or crushed limestone (hard packed) and when touring some of the trails allow ATVs so they can get potholes and heavily crowned (if too bad I divert). So, not heavey off-road

I am leaning towards the Hase manufacturer. Their line of .....
Configurator for mountain-trikes with sporty chassis
or just the standard kettwiesel. I do prefer a higher seat like my current Hase Lepus Comfort but it is no longer made.

 

[Big Tom]

Amberwolf's response was, as usual, detailed and spot-on.



Hase does offer a front suspension fork. IIRC, it's a Spinner 300. (installed images on their website).

As a Delta pilot, I don't use, or openly recommend front suspension forks on Deltas. For a slight improvement in high speed handling, perhaps. Why?... It's because the Delta's CoG (typically 33f/66r), places the rider well behind the front wheel, where road vibrations are least felt. I do, however, use carbon fiber handle bars which dramatically suppresses chip-seal vibrations (not to mention, virtually eliminates much of the pain from my tendonitis). YMMV

You are correct in that the front wheel has limited weight applied in downforce which is an actual downside with a front wheel hub but I have learned to not "jackrabbit " the starts limiting he tire spin.

I am thinking that your worries is that a shocks upward motion could unload more weight off the COG on that wheel. I had not thought of that. There is now another thing to think about before I purchase. I was more concerned with how the torque might effect the workings of the shock (future issues). With a trike, it has 3 seperate wheel tracks and sometimes it is difficult to miss potholes and hitting with the front wheel can be jarring (if I have to hit one, I prefer a front wheel over rear wheels) because of that mentioned COG.

More to think about, thanks again.

Tom

 

[Papa]

I am leaning towards a delta trike. My current trike is a delta (over 13 years and many tens of thousands of miles)

Funny,... one of my early, Delta builds was,.. [thinking...] around '05/'06? Simple build - juiced RR, pedal LR for 2WD. Rode that sweetheart up until last year. A few builds in between I either sold or gave away. My current is still in a jig - I'll definitely need it come spring.

my trike is my transportation, getting groceries, getting to appointments and some touring so I do pull a small converted kids trailer to assist.

Yes, same here,.. well,.. almost. I'm on a couple of remote acres (purchased 3 yrs ago), 12 miles from town. I still have a car, but that's about to change, come January, when my license expires - just NOT gonna renew this time! Three trikes and solitude

You are correct in that the front wheel has limited weight applied in downforce

Actually, a properly loaded Delta should have equal weight on all wheels. 33% front/33% x2=66% rear.

 

[Papa]

Just remembered this Tom,.... close to your plan, maybe...

 

[Chalo]

I am looking at getting a full suspension trike. My main question is .... is there serious issues with suspension especially with suspension on the front forks with a front hub.

Apart from safety and technical issues, there's another major problem with both suspension and hub motor in front of a delta recumbent trike. There's usually not enough weight on that wheel for either of those things to work as intended. The telescopic fork will barely move unless you use hopelessly soft springs (which would present other problems when braking or surmounting edges), and the motor will spin and skid the front tire long before it makes good torque.

It's very much more valuable to have suspension and motor drive on the rear wheels than on the front. You could use something like a Cyclone kit to drive the rear axle. If the trike you like doesn't have articulated rear suspension, you could use gas struts as seat supports.

 

[Chalo]

Actually, a properly loaded Delta should have equal weight on all wheels. 33% front/33% x2=66% rear.

Sure, but the only delta trikes I've ever seen that accomplish anything close to that are upright granny trikes (which have other serious dynamic problems). Most of the 'bent deltas I've seen are split more like 10% front/90% rear.

 

[Big Tom]

Just remembered this Tom,.... close to your plan, maybe...

That is very similar to my current trike. Except I have an internal gear hub (shram 8). With the differential like this trike has, it is very surprising the amount of traction Schwalbe marathon tires have in s ow and ice (even wet ice). I have found that a derailleur system and snow/ice do not get along. These styles of trike, the rider is almost directly over the rear wheels/axle therefore the front wheel is not loaded with much weight. With the extra weight of the hub, I would estimate to be 75% rear and 25% front. Yes if you were to hammer down a throttle on an e-assist, the front wheel would just spin.

Chalo, I am not sure how these shocks are dampened but Hase has then on some of their higher end trikes so I imagined they have it figured out. I just need to see if it can hold up to the torque of a motor. Because of the way these trikes mount the rear wheels it would be near impossible to go with a rear hub motor (or even dual hub). Just like that video above, with a two wheel rear drive and a front hub motor, the trike becomes all wheel drive.

Thanks again for your opinions and information.

Tom

 

[PaPaSteve]

The only "suspension" delta trike I'm aware of is the Sun USX which does have a shock but when ridden it didn't feel anywhere near a workable concept.
Part of doing custom builds is throwing out conventional wisdom, trust your instincts and give it a try.
Adding a suspension fork is a simple experiment.
Be willing to accept and then correcting mistakes is key.
During the process do a weight balance check to see if it can be improved by moving things around.

 

[Papa]

.... do a weight balance check to see if it can be improved by moving things around.

Absolutely. install the hub motor up front, and mount the chunky battery pack as far forward as practical.
A single bathroom scale under one wheel, & equal thickness book(s) under the remaining 2 wheels will verify results.

 

[Big Tom]

The only "suspension" delta trike I'm aware of is the Sun USX which does have a shock but when ridden it didn't feel anywhere near a workable concept.
Part of doing custom builds is throwing out conventional wisdom, trust your instincts and give it a try.
Adding a suspension fork is a simple experiment.
Be willing to accept and then correcting mistakes is key.
During the process do a weight balance check to see if it can be improved by moving things around.

Hase has more then one model with suspension. In fact my 2010 Hase Lepus Comfort has suspension only that it is a single rear under the seat.

I am not looking for a custom build, looking into a new trike (delta) and trying to figure out if a front suspended trike can handle a front hub motor. People on this forum are much more knowledgeable than me which is wise I asked the question here. As for the COG balance, my current trike handles magnificently without any worries, even at speeds over 80 kph. To add to or alter the current balance will be nearly impossible, there is no structure to mount weight to up front (without interfering the pedaling). There is an option to mount a front baggage rack but that option is not compatible with a suspended fork.

Tom

 

[Chalo]

Because of the way these trikes mount the rear wheels it would be near impossible to go with a rear hub motor (or even dual hub).

Cyclone isn't a hub motor. It's a shafted motor with a small freewheel on the output, which you'd use to drive the rear axle. That's what I recommend. You could use a direct drive hub motor the same way, running it in reverse with a freewheel as an output sprocket driving another sprocket on the rear axle.

 

[PaPaSteve]

Hase has more then one model with suspension. In fact my 2010 Hase Lepus Comfort has suspension only that it is a single rear under the seat.

I am not looking for a custom build, looking into a new trike (delta) and trying to figure out if a front suspended trike can handle a front hub motor. People on this forum are much more knowledgeable than me which is wise I asked the question here. As for the COG balance, my current trike handles magnificently without any worries, even at speeds over 80 kph. To add to or alter the current balance will be nearly impossible, there is no structure to mount weight to up front (without interfering the pedaling). There is an option to mount a front baggage rack but that option is not compatible with a suspended fork.

Tom

Well . . . my mistake.

Is the Hase Lepus Comfort currently available ?
The Kettwiesel Kross sure looks good with it's full suspension.

KETTWIESEL CROSS STEPS Off-road Recumbent Trike

The KETTWIESEL CROSS STEPS is the recumbent trike for offroad fun. With fat, knobby tires and long-travel suspension, the off-road cousin of the KETTWIESEL is bringing the adrenaline of mountain-biking to the recumbent trike world.

www.hasebikesusa.com

With the your idea of front drive, and a hub motor in hand it seems finding a suspension fork (perhaps used for the first try) would be an easy experiment.
The Cyclone motor mounts halfway between the crank and rear axle. It would be a great idea but it takes more fabrication skills.
Perfect motor on a quad like this.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

As you may be making a solution, consider an Earles fork. This design may help with having such a small area to work with.

 

[Big Tom]

Well . . . my mistake.

Is the Hase Lepus Comfort currently available ?
The Kettwiesel Kross sure looks good with it's full suspension.

KETTWIESEL CROSS STEPS Off-road Recumbent Trike

The KETTWIESEL CROSS STEPS is the recumbent trike for offroad fun. With fat, knobby tires and long-travel suspension, the off-road cousin of the KETTWIESEL is bringing the adrenaline of mountain-biking to the recumbent trike world.

www.hasebikesusa.com

With the your idea of front drive, and a hub motor in hand it seems finding a suspension fork (perhaps used for the first try) would be an easy experiment.
The Cyclone motor mounts halfway between the crank and rear axle. It would be a great idea but it takes more fabrication skills.
Perfect motor on a quad like this.

View attachment 343960

They nolonger offer the "Comfort". They offer a Hase Lepus not the Hase Lepus Comfort anymore. The comfort model had a more upright sitting position (hips above the feet). I want a hub motor so I have two independent drive systems. If there is an issue with the chain drive I still have the hub to get me home and the other way around as well. Not a system tied together, dependent on eachother.

Tom

 

[Triketech]

Take a peek at HPV's new delta.

Ergo its an HPV and its a brilliant package. And it folds.

Hase makes a great product but the Delta TX may tick all the boxes and some.

Delta tx: Comfortable E-Chopper - HP Velotechnik

Delta tx – the chopper e-trike for everyday life and leisure. Lightweight trike with high seating position, low step-through and e-assist.

www.hpvelotechnik.com

 

[PaPaSteve]

Sounds good to me.
Should be an easy project.
The forum wisdom suggests ensuring the axle doesn't twist in the fork attachment and your good to go.

They nolonger offer the "Comfort". They offer a Hase Lepus not the Hase Lepus Comfort anymore. The comfort model had a more upright sitting position (hips above the feet). I want a hub motor so I have two independent drive systems. If there is an issue with the chain drive I still have the hub to get me home and the other way around as well. Not a system tied together, dependent on eachother.

Tom

 

[PaPaSteve]

Take a peek at HPV's new delta.
Ergo its an HPV and its a brilliant package. And it folds.

Hase makes a great product but the Delta TX may tick all the boxes and some.

Delta tx: Comfortable E-Chopper - HP Velotechnik

Delta tx – the chopper e-trike for everyday life and leisure. Lightweight trike with high seating position, low step-through and e-assist.

www.hpvelotechnik.com

That's a well done product.
The take apart feature would help reduce shipping costs.
Love to try it.

 

[Papa]

I want a hub motor so I have two independent drive systems. If there is an issue with the chain drive I still have the hub to get me home and the other way around as well. Not a system tied together, dependent on eachother.

We certainly agree

Hase makes a great product but the Delta TX may tick all the boxes and some.

The Hase is the gold standard IMO.

The DeltaTX appears above average, but fails to 'tick all the boxes' IMO. It appears to have a middrive, which employs the pedal drive system -- break any component in the pedal drive (chain, derailleur, cassette, ect)... and you lose forward motion.

 

[Chalo]

I want a hub motor so I have two independent drive systems. If there is an issue with the chain drive I still have the hub to get me home and the other way around as well. Not a system tied together, dependent on eachother.

If you use a motor driving the rear axle, you can have your desired redundancy without the traction problems you'd get by putting a drive motor in a wheel that doesn't bear enough weight.

 

[Big Tom]

If you use a motor driving the rear axle, you can have your desired redundancy without the traction problems you'd get by putting a drive motor in a wheel that doesn't bear enough weight.

Sorry, these model trikes it is nearly impossible to add e-assist to the rear wheels without "major" modifications or losing the ability to pedal. As for traction problems, they are more precieved over actual. My current trike, I have tested it going up a 6 and 8% grade(from dead stop), hub motor only and it pulled the trike along with little spin if I gradually added power, yes if I "jack rabbit " the throttle (go full power) it spins, even lays rubber (but tires are too expensive to do that) lol.

As I have mentioned before, I do not want to tie my e-assist into my chain drive, therefore my only option is a front hub motor.

Tom