Studded Tires?

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DrkAngel
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Studded Tires?

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 17, 2010 9:21 pm

Please remember though ... studded tires are not a cure for ice and snow.
They just help give you a fighting chance!


Picked up a pair of Innova studded tires ... cheap ... in July. (ebay)

Cost me about $40 for the pair, including shipping. I wasn't very impressed with design, but hey, couldn't beat the price. Have to give them a try.

First, there are plenty of studs, 1 every 3/4", but I feel they are placed too close to the center. I fear they will wear down from constant abrasion. Ideally they should make only minimal contact on a straight run. That way they will be fresh and sharp on any sort of turn, where they are most needed. Presently, both rows of studs contact, on the straight, any turn lifts one set, effectively halving the, "stud" traction.

Just started snowing yesterday so I winterized one of my EZip Mountain trailz. The studded tires make a very noticeable noise, not sure what to compare it to, but at slow speed it sounds almost identical to microwaved popcorn.

The tires are only 1.75" but that should make them cut through the snow and let the studs cut into the underlying ice. Unfortunately, with no snow, I'm a bit fearful of cornering too fast. I keep thinking about steel studs sliding on cold wet blacktop, ... maybe I'm just paranoid?

Image

Also bought another pair of tires, over the summer. They are possibly the poorest attempt at studded tires that I can imagined. I will post pictures ... soon.

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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by tom2slow » Dec 17, 2010 9:38 pm

Sigh,

there was a superb winter riding website called icebike.org, but the domain is parked :-((
There is a listserve, and they have a website at http://joeclark.org/icebike.html

To try to answer your questions from the one season I thought I was tuff enough. Studs are really and answer to ice, they do little to help with snow and are really a PIA on the hardtop. I had a set of Kendas I got from Nashbar, got rid of them w/ my uprights. You are right those studs are pretty close to the center line, and all studs are slicker and a little more prone to kick sideways when you load them up on a turn You will want to be careful.

A little utilized trick is to manage the contact patch using air pressure, if you run thos studs as hard as possible you will do better, and then in the crud let a few lbs out and enjoy the better stud/garbage contact.

Whether the stud wears down or not is dependent upon the material, use and all kinds of other factors. FWIW automotive studs wear, but generally are good for more than 1 season, again depending, and you gotta take them off in Feb/Mar or whenever you actually run out of ice...

Good luck, and get good insulation, as long as you are tougher than I you will have a lot of fun.

--T

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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 17, 2010 9:42 pm

Finally got a chance to run on a variety of winter roads.

They do excellent on:
Fresh fluffy snow - cuts deep and studs get good contact.
Ice on road - excellent tracking and stopping.
Light snow, on ice - tread cuts through snow and studs cut into ice

Good:
Fresh heavy, (wet), snow. Up to, a couple inches

Poor:
Grainy "slush" - When too cold, salt turns snow to a slippery "sand", 1" plus, is treacherous
Frozen "rutty" slush - better than without studs, still "nasty"

Tips:
Brakes - "arrow" shaped pads w/straight front edge, to "clean" wheel, not polish
- better rear pads, rear pads must lock rear wheel before front

1 studded tire - must be placed on front
2 studded tires - If not studded equally, place better studded tire on front
(If your rear tire losses traction it is called fun, if your front, it is called OUCH!)

Image EZIP ENGINEERING 101 Image
Last edited by DrkAngel on Dec 18, 2010 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 17, 2010 9:56 pm

Drumroll please, ......... and now, the studded tires, apparently designed to showcase, every flawed design possibility!

Image

What's so wrong about them?

Well, first off, these studs are aluminum! Not only will salt eat them away, quickly, but they will wear away almost immediately on blacktop, even faster on concrete! AAAND! As soon as the studs are worn away, the pan type "stud holders" will let you slide easily, even on the driest roads.

Image

It appears that they used a fairly large drill, which cut through many of the threads that give the tire its support, strength, reliability, etc. Oops!, looks like it will need about 3 layers of liner, to protect the tube. Yes, the studs, are actually, aluminum pop rivets!

Image

It seems, someone might, actually be proud of their design!

Image

I plan on keeping these, as a novelty. But, if anyone dares to claim this to be a good design, I will threaten to sell, to them!

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Last edited by DrkAngel on May 18, 2014 7:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by MadRhino » Dec 17, 2010 10:06 pm

I've been racing on ice, so I could add:

-Put your weight in the front at all times, and as much in the front as you can while in turns
-Transfer your body weight inside turns, in order to keep the bike as upright as possible
-Maintain traction at all times, by torque or compression, but never freewheel
-Practice your skill at speeding on plain ice, before going into snow cover
-Have fun :twisted:
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by el_walto » Dec 17, 2010 10:09 pm

I have Schwalbe Ice Spikers. They are awesome this winter on all the ice and dry pavement. I use a front wheel drive hub.

Image

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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by LI-ghtcycle » Dec 17, 2010 10:21 pm

Sounds like fun! I wonder if there are bike tires with walnut shell too that might grip well too? I never heard what the verdict was on the car tires, but I think the idea was hard enough to grip ice, but wouldn't cause you to skate as much as a metal stud on black top.

I will be watching this thread with interest to see what people are using. :)
Thank you Justin_Le for your selfless act of kindness! We all are in your debt.
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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by MadRhino » Dec 17, 2010 11:04 pm

LI-ghtcycle wrote: I will be watching this thread with interest to see what people are using. :)
I don't use studded tires on the street, for most of the winter the streets here are cleaned and regularly covered with abrasives. So iced street is not a common situation, and studded tires are not fun to ride on pavement.

I use studded tires offroad, and I make my own.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by LI-ghtcycle » Dec 18, 2010 1:05 am

MadRhino wrote:
LI-ghtcycle wrote: I will be watching this thread with interest to see what people are using. :)
I don't use studded tires on the street, for most of the winter the streets here are cleaned and regularly covered with abrasives. So iced street is not a common situation, and studded tires are not fun to ride on pavement.

I use studded tires offroad, and I make my own.
Kewl, I used to do the same with my XT500 Enduro. I simply took automotive studs and drilled a hole (the diameter of the SHAFT of the stud, not the head) into the center of beefy lug on the tire, and forced the hole open enough to get the head of the stud in there with some modified needle nose pliers.

I never really had a use for them though, when it really got Icy I just chickened out and drove the truck. :wink:

The test stud that I installed stayed put for about 8 mon. or so then I took it out, but I also made some really ghetto "studs" from tiny tack nails that stayed put in the tires of my GF's MTB that I borrowed one year in Montana, rode that everywhere in the winter, worked great, and they never came out, they were in those tires for years. I'm sure they had less grip than real studs, but they also didn't make the bike skate on bare road either. 8)
Thank you Justin_Le for your selfless act of kindness! We all are in your debt.
Back on track E-Bronco! Now with Cro Motor Mid-Drive Goodness!
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=44997

Vision R40 w/3000w MXUS as mid-drive, NuVinci N171B rear wheel as transmission, Silent yet powerful, running 72v 11.6 ah (20s 18650 Li-Ion) to climb hills, tow trailer with zero pedaling when needed!

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=75247[/size]

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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by MadRhino » Dec 18, 2010 1:33 am

I use kold kutters, to make my ice tires. 20$ for a box of 250, quick to do. Anyone with those, can do much better that any studded bicycle tire. Use the 3/8 Kold Kutters on a downhill tire (can use half inch on some brand new tires), and you don't have to take it off the rim to screw them in. Of course, you'll have to replace some sometimes, but nothing gives a better grip, and you can fit a LOT of them on a tire. :mrgreen:

They grip on pavement but very noizy, and likely to be thrown sometimes like 22cal shots to the cars following you :roll: .
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by LI-ghtcycle » Dec 18, 2010 2:04 am

Wow, I never knew there was an "official" sheet-metal screw used that way, I always assumed it was just something you got at the local hardware store. I installed mine from the outside too, I'm probably never going to need THAT much of a "stud" on the street either, if any at all, I wonder how well the stud-less bike winter tires do? I'm always leery of the way metal tends to skate on pavement.

I'm guessing that those screws rock on straight ice and down-hill? I was never talented enough to do dirt really, I once took that beast ('79 Yamaha XT 500) on a race course with the DOT knobbies ( sign up for expert he said .. you'll get more laps! ... naw it's not a race really, just a bunch of guys getting together ... :roll: ) first mud I hit I was in in it with the bike pointing forward, me backward and one leg with me, one leg pointing with the bike! :shock: :lol:

I think that wipe-out in the first 5 min of the course was God's way of saying " you really don't belong here, do you ..." it would have been my first time of really doing ANY off-road riding, and had insane jumps and such! So glad I didn't go on it and smash myself against a tree! :mrgreen:

Sorry for the OT!

I have seen chains for MTB's too. I wonder if they were the rubber type like you see that strap to the bottom of boots if they wouldn't be more effective? I thought of making something with old tubes and sanding belts to give traction on every other knobbie or something ...
Thank you Justin_Le for your selfless act of kindness! We all are in your debt.
Back on track E-Bronco! Now with Cro Motor Mid-Drive Goodness!
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=44997

Vision R40 w/3000w MXUS as mid-drive, NuVinci N171B rear wheel as transmission, Silent yet powerful, running 72v 11.6 ah (20s 18650 Li-Ion) to climb hills, tow trailer with zero pedaling when needed!

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=75247[/size]

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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by MadRhino » Dec 18, 2010 2:39 am

LI-ghtcycle wrote:Wow, I never knew there was an "official" sheet-metal screw used that way, I always assumed it was just something you got at the local hardware store.
Regular sheet metal screws do skate on pavement, and most of the studs that are on ready-made bicycle ice tires. Kold Kutters grip better on pavement, but that does not make them a good ride, only safer. Anyway, I never felt the real need to use studded tires on the street, but a few times in the whole winter.

Dirt biking is a drug, once you get past the first fear and survived a few crashes, you're addicted.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by MrBoots » Dec 19, 2010 12:00 pm

I tried DIY studded tires on my MTB and consistently had punctured tubes despite using loads of tire-liner. This year, when it came time to equip my 700c commuter, I opted for a decent-quality studded tires over DIY or taking a chance on my regular street slicks. I ended up picking up a pair of Nokian Hakkapelitta's for $40 a piece online and boy have they worked beautifully!

Though road noise is quite loud now and there's much more added rolling resistance (these snow tires are 35's whereas my street tires are 25's), I've been very happy with them. The other day, I was forced to ride over a 30 ft. patch of ice caused by a broken water pipe, I cruised right over without issue. Had I done that with my street tires, I would've lost traction and taken a tumble for sure.

I've also gone over a bike path with some light snow/slush and again, no problems. It's crazy that I'm actually looking forward to snow fall to really test these tires. The massive parking lot at my work is just becomes a chaotic zoo when snow falls so it'll def be nice getting in and out without waiting for hours!

Image

Image

The studded tires and Sturmey Archer drum brake have worked like a charm in inclement weather. For those of you who'd like to upgrade to a disc brake set-up but don't either have the disc fork or want a cheaper/easier alternative, these SA drums would be great.

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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by janine » Dec 19, 2010 3:53 pm

I have a question. We just had a bunch of ice here and I live on a private road so my road for 1/2 m was really solid ice in most places. I have to ride my bike to the bus for work and started commuting on the new ebike. I'm not going to talk about how many times I crashed...on and off the bike.

I just ordered the schwalbe winter hs 396 tire in a 26 inch to put on the front. I am interested in just getting another wheel for the tire so I can just change it out with bad weather and I almost ordered a 26 inch mountain bike wheel. But looking at my mountain bike the area that the tire seats in doesn't look as big as the currie veronique wheel and I googled but couldn't find any place that sold them. Any ideas?

The bike shop where I got my trailz said the back tire is a bugger and would take him at least 30 minutes to change out in the shop so I wasn't going to mess that that.

Also are quick release skewers ok to use on the ebike?

Thanks a bunch!!!

janine

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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by LOWRACER » Dec 19, 2010 5:26 pm

For extreme snow and ice I take my 6-wheeler...


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Happy Winter!

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 21, 2010 3:07 am

I recommend allowing wheels to acclimatize, if taken into the cold, after being "warm", snow will melt on wheels and will freeze into a coating of ice. Allowed to cool down first, "Cold" wheels will gather a bit of snow, but they will not accumulate an icy coating.

On "cold" days it is important to check brake function often!
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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by janine » Dec 21, 2010 8:13 pm

Good issues to note! I usually put my bike out, and then get all my work stuff, helmet, gloves, boots on and go but the last couple of days been keeping the ebike in the garage as it's alittle gooopey and salty when getting home. Of course my batteries are snug in the heated house, charging away.

I saw something about double walled rims and figured the ezip trailz wheels are these, I saw that currie has the whole front assembly for sale so I called them and they won't sell just the wheel and it's $100 for it so I'm back looking for a wheel again. Just hate buying a tire when I don't need it. And the bike was really cutting out today as I pulled a trailer and going up a steep hill. I wonder how long it is going to last! I didn't have hardly anything in the trailer then. I only weigh #115 and the trailer weighs #35 and I had maybe 5# of stuff in there not sure about that.

I'm thinking it takes cruiser wheels maybe. We are suppose to get a storm but I'm not working til the day after xmas. So hoping for no ice.

Happy Holidays ebike lovers,

janine

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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by lifepo4ever » Dec 24, 2010 12:32 pm

OK so if anyone want the cheapest set up : box of 100 #8 1/2 wood screws

you want to use about 50 screw because more then that its to heavy

i use some powder baby and add a other tube inside the tire

inflate tire to is maximum to keep the screw under pressure

this set up is cheap and neve have problem since 2 year

you can also put some in the midlle of the tire for icy road but you have to grind them all must at the base of the tread to not slowing you down.
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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by lifepo4ever » Dec 24, 2010 12:33 pm

DrkAngel wrote:Picked up a pair of Innova studded tires ... cheap ... in July. (ebay)

Cost me about $40 for the pair, including shipping. I wasn't very impressed with design, but hey, couldn't beat the price. Have to give them a try.

First, there are plenty of studs, 1 every 3/4", but I feel they are placed too close to the center. I fear they will wear down from constant abrasion. Ideally they should make only minimal contact on a straight run. That way they will be fresh and sharp on any sort of turn, where they are most needed. Presently, both rows of studs contact, on the straight, any turn lifts one set, effectively halving the, "stud" traction.

Just started snowing yesterday so I winterized one of my EZip Mountain trailz. The studded tires make a very noticeable noise, not sure what to compare it to, but at slow speed it sounds almost identical to microwaved popcorn.

The tires are only 1.75" but that should make them cut through the snow and let the studs cut into the underlying ice. Unfortunately, with no snow, I'm a bit fearful of cornering too fast. I keep thinking about steel studs sliding on cold wet blacktop, ... maybe I'm just paranoid?

Image

Also bought another pair of tires, over the summer. They are possibly the poorest attempt at studded tires that I can imagined. I will post pictures ... soon.

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whre you get them ? here they are 40$ each at cost price

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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 24, 2010 12:55 pm

First off, my Innova studded tires are working satisfactorily. But I never want to become complacent, sooo ... I decided to try my hand at making studded tires.

Plan of action:
Surprisingly, the aluminum pop rivet debacle, help guide me away-towards many good-bad ideas.

Avoid:
1. Drill will cut-damage the ply-cords
2. anything jagged-pointy against tube
3. screws in center

Use:
1. Screw with wide-low profile head
2. Screw with wide deep threads

I found 2 candidates: #8x1/2"

Image

The screws fit nice and flush to the tire, hopefully with their wide heads, the tube will help support them nicely.

Image

For my first attempt I decided to use one of my swapped out EZip tires.

Image

The "studs" look nasty, I thought about grinding them down some, but I believe I'll just wait for the next heavy snow-ice storm.

Image

I didn't over do it on quantity, this is just a test item. 100 of these sharp little screws and 8 bloody fingers later, I have my prototype!

Image

I left the center "stud free", straight line riding requires very little extra traction. My stud pattern will wear some, on the straight but studs will cut deeply on slight turn, and outer row will dig in, on sharper turn. Lowering tire pressure will allow outer row to hit with a lighter turn.
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Last edited by DrkAngel on May 18, 2014 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by lifepo4ever » Dec 24, 2010 1:33 pm

DrkAngel wrote:First off, my Innova studded tires are working satisfactorily. But I never want to become complacent, sooo ... I decided to try my hand at making studded tires.

Plan of action:
Surprisingly, the aluminum pop rivet debacle, help guide me away-towards many good-bad ideas.

Avoid:
1. Drill will cut-damage the ply-cords
2. anything jagged-pointy against tube
3. screws in center

Use:
1. Screw with wide-low profile head
2. Screw with wide deep threads

I found 2 candidates: #8x1/2"

Image

The screws fit nice and flush to the tire, hopefully with their wide heads, the tube will help support them nicely.

Image

For my first attempt I decided to use one of my swapped out EZip tires.

Image

The "studs" look nasty, I thought about grinding them down some, but I believe I'll just wait for the next heavy snow-ice storm.

Image

I didn't over do it on quantity, this is just a test item. 100 of these sharp little screws and 8 bloody fingers later, I have my prototype!

Image

I left the center "stud free", straight line riding requires very little extra traction. My stud pattern will wear some, on the straight but studs will cut deeply on slight turn, and outer row will dig in, on sharper turn. Lowering tire pressure will allow outer row to hit with a lighter turn.
you not answer my question where you get your innova tire?

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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 24, 2010 3:33 pm

lifepo4ever wrote: you not answer my question where you get your innova tire?
Reread line #1 of thread! ...

Still having problem?

Have some friend explain it to you. ...
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

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DrkAngel
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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 27, 2010 10:42 am

Studs should barely touch on the straight, dig in firmly, on a slight turn, and second row joining first row, on a heavier turn.

Next trial will be with tires with larger knobbies, better target and support for screws.

I just found some, same type screws, with 3/8" length. They should be the perfect length for the inner rows!
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lifepo4ever
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Re: Studded Tires?

Post by lifepo4ever » Dec 27, 2010 11:54 am

el_walto wrote:I have Schwalbe Ice Spikers. They are awesome this winter on all the ice and dry pavement. I use a front wheel drive hub.

Image
you have the best tire man with carbide but they almost 100$ each here

i just see innova tire are not good on pavement road , they wear very easy because they use regular carbon steel

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DrkAngel
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Joined: Dec 15, 2010 11:14 am
Location: Upstate-Western-Southern Tier NY. USA

Re: Studded Tires?

Post by DrkAngel » Dec 28, 2010 10:05 am

lifepo4ever wrote:
el_walto wrote:I have Schwalbe Ice Spikers. They are awesome this winter on all the ice and dry pavement. I use a front wheel drive hub.

Image
you have the best tire man with carbide but they almost 100$ each here

i just see innova tire are not good on pavement road , they wear very easy because they use regular carbon steel
You're correct about the Innova wearing. Being so close to center, and the studs being of a less durable material, the rear studs have worn nearly flush to the tread. This after only a couple hundred miles of clear road. Possibly the wear was accelerated by the extra weight and extra torque on my rear wheel. The front wheel still has substantial stud protrusion.

I am waiting for the arrival of my 3/8" screws before trying my "homemade" studded tires. Protrusion on inner ribs will be reduced from 1/4", to a more reasonable 1/8". Still, initial trial will be on ice, or at least, accumulated snow. At full pressure, studs will still make heavy contact on level travel. After normal wear, contact should still be reasonable on the straight and substantial on any lean, (turn). Better contact can be supplied with a minor pressure reduction. Re-pressurize for clearer roads ... etc.
Guess I should carry a small CO2 "pump".
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely, sobers us again.

I enjoy enlightening ... and enlivening the spirit of the innovators.

New & Improved - Acronym Definitions

Index - Homemade Battery Packs - Updated - November 2015

EBike Toolbox - Bargains! $

Endless Sphere Wiki

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