Studded Tires?

I think I misunderstood you. When you said tire liner, I thought liner made from a tire. :D
I like the idea. Gives excellent support to the studs passing through both tires. I just measured my protrusion of several studs at .22" to .23", so with these tires, and if I could find a thin (1/8"?) inner tire I would still have plenty of protrusion down the middle.
Bob
 
oldswamm said:
I think I misunderstood you. When you said tire liner, I thought liner made from a tire. :D
I like the idea. Gives excellent support to the studs passing through both tires. I just measured my protrusion of several studs at .22" to .23", so with these tires, and if I could find a thin (1/8"?) inner tire I would still have plenty of protrusion down the middle.
Bob
Look at the 5x Slime tube.
Available at Walmart.com ... etc. About $10.
5x the thickness on outer, (tread), regions.
Should hold up to ... most any, "reasonable" screw head

Oops!
Now called SmartTube and about $13.

$7.98 @Pricepoint.com - shipping unknown?

SmartTube.jpg

!Tube weighs more than, most any, tire ... but if you need durability ... !
 
Drkangel,
Here's a sketch of what I had in mind. Based on a misunderstanding, but I like the idea. Without 'tire' liner on the left, and with it on the right. This summer I'll try and find a suitable knobby tire- smooth tire 'liner' combo. (The OD of the inner 'tire' has to be just the diameter of the inside of the outer tire.)
screws.jpg
Under torque, the screw rocks, pivoting where it passes through the tire cord (the dotted brown line). This tends to wear and even tear the tire lug where the screw passes through, as well as wearing the tube and inner surface of the tire. Using a cut down tire for a liner, the 2 cords are a distance apart and will absorb the rocking motion as linear force applied to the cords. I would expect it to almost eliminate rocking. And if the screw head wears into cord, it will be the liner's.

I don't want to deal with the slime when, not if, I have a flat. :) I expect that multiple thin tubes with powder between them will work better than one thick liner or a thick tube for minimizing wear from the screws (the liner will slide instead of trying to resist any screw motion). If I found a thick, non slime, tube (had one in my bike 50yrs ago), I might try it, but don't think it would be better than multiple tubes. You folks that ride 10,000 mi a year might get tube wear where the liner ends, but I tend to have flats for non wear related things (nails, steel scraps, glass) often enough to allow inspections. :wink:

If you ride long distances on pavement, I expect you should leave the middle unpopulated and use high pressure so the studs only touch when leaning, and even then they will wear (and possibly skid). These screws are cheap and easy to replace (once you get the tire off). Kold kutters are easier, at least if you do it before the head wears off, (in which case the threaded part can work it's way in and cause flats).

I chose the stud setup in the picture on the last page BECAUSE my conditions are unusual. All winter I ride on ice, packed snow, or sometimes loose snow, and almost never on bare pavement. I wanted something that could grip the ice when there was a thin layer (1/2"+) of snow on it, and help when it was thicker. I've been impressed beyond expectations.
Pavement with ice patches is a whole different story.

Next year I'll have a 17" motorcycle wheel on the rear and hope to find a tire I can mount these on (a worn till it's 'flat' knobby?).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/160727232092
claws.jpg
Replacing the bolts with these (or equivalent), as well as in the spaces between the claws.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/140699580066
stud.jpg
And putting these between the knobs along the outside.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220948809531
stars.jpg
I have them and wouldn't have to order, the links are just examples.

Edit: found the shorter ones (11mm). Expensive, and still plenty long.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/140704984848
maxigrip.jpg

Bob
 
I said I would put up some pictures when I had a flat. That was yesterday. :)
The tire has been slipping on the rim, allowing the screws to cut the liner, as is visible in the first pic. The second pic shows the wear on the studs.

stud inside.jpg
I have about 200 miles on this setup, but less than 5 on asphalt, mostly crossing the road. When I cross, I tend to make a full throttle S turn.

I had a hard time getting a good pic of the wear on the studs. The ones down the center are worn angled back, and the ones on the outside are worn toward the outside. The closeup sure shows the weather checking, which isn't visible to the naked eye.

I was a little premature when I proclaimed it to be spring a few posts back. Yesterday was the first day it got above freezing since then. :roll: It got down to -28F only a few days ago. This has been the longest, coldest winter I've ever seen, and I've been here over 30 years. My guess is we had an average temp of -10 for the last 6 months. I've tended to ride less often, and for shorter distances this winter.
The pic for my avatar was taken in front of my 'drive way' march 23rd.

<edit> I also said that I haven't fallen this winter. I now have to modify that slightly, as I've fallen a couple times climbing the snow berm in the avatar. I haven't fallen at over 3 mph. :wink:

Bob
 
WoW oldswamm, and I am complaining because I am in Sweden. I guess I have to feel grateful it is above freezing here.
 
Another "perk" to this whimpass Winter!

Just won 2 separate auctions! (eBay)

Schwalbe Ice Spiker HS 33 Studded Bicycle Tire (26x2.1, Wire Beaded, Reflex)
$24.95! each - No one else bid, on top quality Studded Winter tires.
$15 combined shipping.

"Schwalbe Ice Spiker HS 33 Studded Bicycle Tire (26x2.1, Wire Beaded, Reflex)
~ Open box item
~ Brand new
~ Condition: never used before
~ Includes: bicycle tire
~ Original retail price: $124.99
~ Picture indicate actual item
Product Features

Item Shape: Wire Beaded, Outstanding performance
Extended durability
304 specially long spikes offer maximum traction on snow and ice
All Schwalbe spikes have an extremely hardwearing tungsten-carbide core with a base of fully galvanized steel"

Ready for next Winter! ... If it shows up?
 

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It's a buyers market!

Just got another new Schwalbe Ice Spiker for $19.95. A "spare". ~ Original retail price: $124.99

Someone else got 2 "Continental Spike Claw MTB Bicycle Tire (26x2.1--120 Studs)", 1 for $6.50 the other for $9.50. Used, but look new.
 
oldswamm said:
I said I would put up some pictures when I had a flat. That was yesterday. :)
The tire has been slipping on the rim, allowing the screws to cut the liner, as is visible in the first pic. The second pic shows the wear on the studs.

I have about 200 miles on this setup, but less than 5 on asphalt, mostly crossing the road. When I cross, I tend to make a full throttle S turn.

I had a hard time getting a good pic of the wear on the studs. The ones down the center are worn angled back, and the ones on the outside are worn toward the outside. The closeup sure shows the weather checking, which isn't visible to the naked eye.

Bob
It appears that your problems are due to excessive stud length!
The studs are tipping and wearing-running on the side of the studs, like a ski, or the runner of a sled.
file.php

Shortening (grinder?) the studs should give you much better traction and tire survivability.
Judging by your picture, the studs appear to be gliding on top of the ice, rather than digging into it.

Trimming the studs down to ... 1/8"should cure yer' ills.
 
DrkAngel said:
It's a buyers market!

Just got another new Schwalbe Ice Spiker for $19.95. A "spare". ~ Original retail price: $124.99

Someone else got 2 "Continental Spike Claw MTB Bicycle Tire (26x2.1--120 Studs)", 1 for $6.50 the other for $9.50. Used, but look new.

Darn, just payed $75 bucks for these, but they are better than the shwalbe ice spikers I've worn out before. http://www.jensonusa.com/Nokian-Extreme-Tire. Side walls are still super thin and crappy like the Schwalbe.

FYI. Jenson USA will price match with no questions asked.
 
Well ... in about 1 week, we've gotten more snow than we did all last Winter.

Got almost 12" in a few hours. The streets had a bottom layer of salt-snow with another 8 inches of a granular on top. Run a bunch of vehicles through, to churn it up a bit, and we get a nasty mess. My homemade studded couldn't climb through the rutted horror. Sidewalks, with frozen footprints, were a bit better, but finally started running through front yards ... with my feet paddling through 12" granular ... yeah, it was down in the teens (*F).

Since it looks like we're getting some real snow this Winter, I have decided to build a Nasty version of my homemade studded.

Purpose:
To bite through that "salt snow", climb ruts, traverse snow covered frozen earth etc.

Means:
Lengthen and multiply the number of screws.
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attachment.php


These are pictures of my original "prototype" build.
I relented and shortened the center screws.
Upcoming build will take advantage of the longer screws and and be doubled, possibly tripled, in quantity.

The longer screws might tip and damage on bare roads.
So I will install on a spare wheel and swap for the appropriate "nastiness".

Will post up pictures and evaluation ... pretty soon!
 
Goal - All terrain Winter Tire

Proposal - A ridiculously large number of long sheet metal screws!

Step 1
From the outside, screw in screws at desired locations.

Step 2
Invert tire ... turn it inside out.
Mark the locations of all screws.
A BIC medium ball point works nicely,
2 lines converging on screw, screw hole is difficult to see.

inside.jpg

Step 3
Remove screws.

Step 4
Reinsert screws using pre-screwed holes.

Step 5
"Revert" tire.

Side.jpg



Next?
Slather all screw heads with construction adhesive, insert old tube, add normal pressure, allow to set.
(Due to lack of air, curing might not occur, contact adhesive night be a better idea.)
Slit tube in center, remove stem, place real tube inside.

Wait for more nastiness!

Regrets?
Way too many screws!

Further thoughts.
Next project I may predrill from the outside with an extremely small bit 1/16th or smaller, (wire gauge?), just enough to mark the screw position.

As a front tire, 10 screws hitting the road simultaneously, it is possible that it could survive limited bare road use?

PS - Oh Crap!
Just decided to add 2 rows of 3/8" screws along the center ... 444 screws total!
 
Well, I coulda stopped at 148, went to 296 ... figured I might as well go "Whole Hog", 444 screws!

Hedge Hog ... that is!


HHprofile.jpg

The screws might weigh more than the tire did!

HHinards.jpg

Will I actually use it?
Damn Skippy!

If only to scare the hell out of slow walking pedestrians!

I intend on making some decent impression on any weather that gets dropped on me this winter.

HedgeHog_01.jpg

I added a 5x Slime tube, outer area at 5x the thickness of normal tubes.

There might be an actual danger of picking up stuff in my tread, chipmunks, squirrels, shoes etc.
 
Now that's a spikey tire! I admire folks like yourself who have the patience to exceed the boundries! Nice work!
otherDoc
 
DrkAngel said:
There might be an actual danger of picking up stuff in my tread, chipmunks, squirrels, shoes etc.
:lol: nwo my ribs hurt more thn the rest of me :lol:

you might be ablet o clmb a car instead of crashing into it now. ;)
 
DrkAngel said:
As a front tire, 10 screws hitting the road simultaneously, it is possible that it could survive limited bare road use?

PS - Oh Crap!
Just decided to add 2 rows of 3/8" screws along the center ... 444 screws total!
Since I added the extra 2 rows of screws, center screws shorter, it looks like 4 rows will hit simultaneously. With about 8 in series hitting with about 40lb pressure, for a continuous 30+ in contact.

Each head covers about .3 square inches.
.3" x 32 x 40psi = 384lb against the screws vs about 70lb weight on front tire.

Looks like straight treking on bare road might be extremely well supported.
 
Finally packed away my Winter bike.
Homemade studded tires proved adequate for all, but the deepest snow.
We didn't get a great amount of snow ... but the cold seemed ... never-ending.
Gittin' old ... actually ran my car most of this Winter ...

I'm sad to say that I never got a chance to try my "HedgeHog". Sold it to a Pennsylvania eBiker with a front hub motor. He needed it worse than I did!
I grew too attached to it, was tempted to hang it on the wall as artwork. First run in the salty snow would have started it rusting. Will post up, second hand, report when available.
 
Replaced center rows of screws on my "homemade" studded tire and am ready for Winter.

attachment.php

For my "typical" Winter conditions, I can't recommend any "better" stud pattern. The tread pattern works nicely with every 3rd knobby studded, which gives good stud and tread contact, allowing reasonable all weather performance.

attachment.php

Still running the "real" Klondike XT carbide studded tire on the rear. But will swap my homemade studded tire on the front as weather dictates. 65lb for "normal" Snow <40lb for glare ice.
High pressure lets the center tread and central studs contact, slight turns increase stud grip and heavy turns add double studs. Lowering tire pressure for ice allows more studs on the ice in all positions.

Never tried "The Hedgehog", sold it to a Pennsylvanian who "needed" it worse than me. He has a front hub motor and runs on packed snow back roads. He pedal assists for an effective "all wheel drive."

file.php


Sadly ... I must confess.
I was afraid to run it in the salty snow ... It would have started rusting very quickly ... and I considered it more, a work of art.
 
As mentioned previously, fat knobby tires are best for riding on top of the snow, while thin studded tires are better for cutting through the snow to let studs touch road surface.

My homemade tires use a stud free center with 2 outrigger rows of studs.

attachment.php

Since these tires are necessary for all-terrain use, everything from glare ice to bare bricks, I do want lots of rubber on the road as well as solid stud contact.
On the straight inner rows of studs both hit with reasonable pressure and while number of studs on the ice decreases with a moderate turn, the studs dig in more firmly and 2nd row of studs grip with a heavier turn or any slip.

Tire pressure?
Well I am working a compromise ...
I use full (65psi) tire pressure.
Lower pressure will let more studs contact at any moment ...
But, each stud has less "dig-in" pressure, less cutting depth-grip.
And ... the higher pressure decreases tire deformation, which with cold tires is severely power robbing!

My common Mountain tread works excellently with a 1/3 of knobbies studded.
Pattern works nice, as well as keeping a minimum of 3 studs contacting under all circumstances.
Lots of rubber on the road and minimal stud wear on the straight.

But! For trying to ride on top of snow, lower tire pressure-fatter tire is much preferable!
 
I flew in last night from California after a glorious Turkeygobble holiday but was really worried that I'd be facing snow this AM. :? Too tired to do the tire swap I waited until this morning:

Ice Spiker Pro (26") on the Front, and Panaracer Fire FR (24") on the back. The front is studded, and the rear has knobbies large enough to be studded.

The removal and installation went quite a bit faster this year because I upgraded to Park Tool Tl-6 Steel Core Tire Levers, and cos I used a liberal amount of soapy water :wink: :lol:

Removing the heavy duty DH tube, I could readily see how the Stop Flats 2 tire liner wandered all over Hell and back; I really hate tire liners; just a RPITA to position. The Front Hookworm had a Panaracer Kevlar liner that stayed perfectly aligned inside the tire; I left it in place for next season - and clue to what I probably should do for the winter tires come next year.

Inflated to 40 psi on both and then set off on a test ride; damned near crashed due to the awkward change in handling - truly more sticky and spongy than I was used to.

After a days' ride - tempted to put some more pressure in - but I need to wait for snow. So far I have not encountered black ice. It's 28°F tonight; Weatherman says it's going to drop to 20°F by Friday with no chance for precipitation, although a 30% chance of snow on Sunday :twisted:

Bring it! KF
 
While it is fun to see and read about all these different stud setups and tires I have to wonder... doesn't anyone make a set of chains with studs that would fit onto a bike?
 
ootpek said:
While it is fun to see and read about all these different stud setups and tires I have to wonder... doesn't anyone make a set of chains with studs that would fit onto a bike?
I haven't seen any. Be neat if someone could have a set like crampons-type that you could just strap on, one-size-fits-all. You could be the first to invent one! :wink:

Crowd-sourcing, anyone?
~KF
 
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