500 Watt Gas Generator, $305 - 21 LBS, Unlimited Range???

So after an extensive search of the forum I don't think anyone has mentioned this generator... http://www.amazon.com/Powerhouse-60370-Inverter-Generator-Compliant/dp/B004RCVRWW

From my research online it appears to be the smallest ready to use modern gas generator available. At only 21 pounds I think it would be feasible to rack mount it to the back of an Ebike. You could also put it in a small trailer.

I currently have a 48v setup with 10AH of lipo. My idea is to use this generator to achieve virtually unlimited range. I'm thinking I strap this to a rear rack, plug a 48v SLA charger into it, hook the sla charger up to my batteries, and viola! Extended range.

I know the idea of an onboard gas generator has been LIGHTLY discussed before, but I have yet to see someone implement it. Perhaps nobody knew a modern generator this small was available? It is the ONLY 500W genny I can find currently in production.

Thoughts?

I'm seriously considering trying this...

Make sure you get a 500w\10amp charger to go along with it.

Weight really doesn't make it worth it, plus the weight of gas. You could add 25lb of battery instead, and not have the extra noise and smell.

Generator will only run 1.8hours per tank @ 500W.

I have a $700 50cc scooter that will do 100km on 3.2L of gas. Might be a better option.

Try this experiment?
After you have bought that generator, fill its tank, "fire it up", and stick your nose up its exhaust pipe?

And please let us know here how your experiment goes? (Length of time before you passed out, etc...)

Cheers

Lock

That's a nice find. I have a Yamaha 1000 Watt that weighs about 27 pounds plus fuel, but when contemplating a cross USA ride a few years back I searched for something lighter since 1000 Watts was more than needed to recharge batteries. Honda used to make a 500, but discontinued it a number of years back.

It's such a nice little package I'm tempted to get one just because. I would haul it in a trailer behind the tadpole trike and only use it when taking a break or while camping in the boonies where no outlets were available for charging.

Thanks for posting.

How come at 12 v DC its output is only 2.5 A...=30 W ??

el_walto said:

Generator will only run 1.8hours per tank @ 500W.

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Just read the specs, it will run 3.5 hours at full load.

Hmmm, sounds like an interesting way to get virtual charging capabilities, and 120v power should you need it. I would likely throw it into my small baby trailer. 21lbs plus 8lbs for a gallon…

Keep us up to date with your purchase and tests… IAN

interesting thought but the real reason no one implemented is because if your going to be using gas anyway it's more efficient to transfer the mechanical energy straight to a wheel instead of wasting it on converting it into electrical and running it through multiple inefficient mediums

ICE motors are around 20% efficient. Generator heads are around 50% efficient. Some claim 60%. Roughly a 90% loss. You may be better off with a small weed wacker motor type friction drive to get you to the nearest outlet if you run out of battery in the middle of nowhere. May be better off to wear a solar cell covered hat and coat while you ride or one of the fold out types if you stop for a break.

We are close to affordable fuel cell type generators which will be much more efficient. Should see a bunch of stuff on it in the coming years. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/the_miniature_fuel_cell

Duty cycle 25%.

Better option IMO would be a Golden Eagle or Staton ICE drive and DD hub or two - enable regen for "unlimited range".

davec said:

interesting thought but the real reason no one implemented is because if your going to be using gas anyway it's more efficient to transfer the mechanical energy straight to a wheel instead of wasting it on converting it into electrical and running it through multiple inefficient mediums

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This^^

My 50cc will do 100km on 3.2L of gas @ 60km/h (5hpish). Running an electric motor from a generator is simply not going to beat that.

But yes, your idea should work, give it a go, would be interesting to see the setup.

Yes... Please pipe the exhaust into yer face mask, and report here on ES the results of your experiment.

Very interesting! (not)

L

I understand it will not be nearly as efficient as having a gas engine directly powering a wheel, what I like is the fact that I have an ebike which I can ride constantly around town with just batteries, but if I want to go on a trip that is hundreds of miles - possibly over the span of several days, I NEVER have to worry about range or plugging in.

I have a bike I put together prior to building my ebike which is powered directly by a 2 stroke "happy time" 49cc kit. In is fine to ride for a few miles, but other than that it is a dog compared to the ebike. Also the drivetrain on a ebike is super simple... just a rear hub. Virtually no maintenance.

Now imagine: You're getting ready for an extended trip on your bike --- you strap a fairly light and quiet genny to your rear rack. In town or populated areas you just run on your normal battery pack with the genny off. But when you are out in the country you fire it up and it quietly purrs behind you, recharging your batteries and sending power to your hub motor. You now have unlimited range. With a reliable genny and a good bike you could ride coast to coast.

I think the idea has serious merit vs a direct drive gas setup. Also I'm betting that this 500W 4stroke inverter generator is significantly quieter than any direct drive gas setup.

21 pounds plus fuel is not light addition for a bicycle IMO. You would be much better off with a bunch of extra batteries and a charger on board. Interested in what you think of it after you try it out for a bit and work out the cost per KWH and live with the hassle of the tag along genset.

This idea comes up from time to time. If you do a search you'll find similar posts with similar responses.

The generator on a trailer idea actually seemed more reasonable than strapping it on the bike.

Lock said:

Yes... Please pipe the exhaust into yer face mask, and report here on ES the results of your experiment.

Very interesting! (not)

L

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Lock, is it that good that you recommend it?

Dan

As expected this thread has attracted some that can't contribute and rather decry any use of gasoline. But there are hybrid cars that allow long range driving when desired and clean economical electric propulsion around town.

With the setup you're proposing just getting rid of range anxiety alone might make it worth while. Tomorrow I'm going on a charity ride and I'm pretty sure I can stretch one of my batteries to cover the 40 miles but just so I can relax and enjoy the ride and keep up with my friends I'm going to cart a second battery with me.

Keep us informed on how it works out for you.

"...some that can't contribute..."??? Perhaps the Admins here could "crack" a fresh/new forum, called whatever, so folks that wish to talk about "all things gasoline-assisted etc" might move on over there?

Just a thought...

L

Would be better to generate the exact voltage you want, ie your fully charged battery voltage, rather than turning AC into DC, then stepping the voltage down to DC again.

Who knows what efficiency the electric side gets..

If you ran a decent little 4 stroke into a ~90% efficient electric motor hooked up to a controller doing direct DC regen to your battery, then you would have something that could likely be more efficient than a utility power station that is fueled by gasoline. Even better - you could convert it to natural gas and have very very low emissions as a result.

It's an idea i've toyed with, but usually go back to the idea of sticking 2.5kwh on the bike and calling it a day.

neptronix said:

Would be better to generate the exact voltage you want, ie your fully charged battery voltage, rather than turning AC into DC, then stepping the voltage down to DC again.

Who knows what efficiency the electric side gets..

If you ran a decent little 4 stroke into a ~90% efficient electric motor hooked up to a controller doing direct DC regen to your battery, then you would have something that could likely be more efficient than a utility power station that is fueled by gasoline. Even better - you could convert it to natural gas and have very very low emissions as a result.
.

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Yeah its a good point really as far as using a generator goes these AC generating units are quite inefficient since the generator is heavily optimized to output standard house hold electricity that is very far from what is ideal for an ebike motor or battery.

Would be cool to see some one heavily mod one of those bicycle 50cc petrol motors combined with a DC regen motor setup and fiberglass it so its in a small neat little package that could fit in a triangle frame. Being able to use natural gas or LPG would be the icing on the cake since it has 90% less carbon emissions and doesn't smell etc.

I support any ideas or experimentation as it can be a stepping stone to better technologies in the future.

SCOFF SCOFF SCOFF. Good ol ES for ya. You'd think he suggested riding along with a wind turbine.

Here's some real input, from a guy who really tried carrying a generator, and does take a generator on some trips. But I gave up the idea of carrying it on the bike. I had a delta trike at the time. My generator is at least 50 pounds, so much worse weight for 800w. But it's perfect for running two 350w chargers at the same time at a remote camp site. If you will ever take the ebike camping, you have found a great generator for it. The next pic would be the Honda EU 1000, a really pricy item!

First point. If carrying 15 more pounds of battery will get you the range you need, do that. First, it's 5 pounds or more lighter. 21 pounds is bound to be dry weight, so a few pounds more for gas will be added. Second, as pointed out, you get to listen to the damn thing, and smell it. Carrying 30 pounds of battery will take you a very long distance if you ride 20mph or less. Far enough to ride plug to plug when towns are 70 miles apart! Batteries are expensive, but generators are too. If you only need 40 miles range, it's quite possible to carry chargers that will get you going again pretty soon. 5 pounds of charger beats hell out of 25 pounds of generator, PLUS still carrying the charger.

Second point, at 21 pounds dry, it's just too heavy to carry well on a rear rack of a bike. The bike will very likely fall over eventually, and the genie might not like that much, slamming to the ground from that height. So think in terms of a trailer, or a trike that can carry it better. Once you put it on a trailer, you get into really having a bike that is ridable, AND has nearly infinite range, determined of course by how many pounds of gas you carry.

Third point. Efficiency. Who cares? If you can't make it on 30 pounds of battery, and or are going to where there are no plugs at all for several days, what difference does efficiency make? All that matters now, is you are way out in the sticks, and you have to carry some way to make your own power. Solar would be nice, but a generator works day or night, rain or shine.

Fourth point. You will lose power at the house some time. Then the guy who owns the generator is the only smart guy on the block. Buy a generator now. I have two. My Honda 800w will run a tv a computer, and a few lights for hours and hours on a very small bit of gas. The cheapo 3500 w will run two space heaters or my fridge and my freezer, or a hot plate or microwave to get cooking. A few years back during the ice storm, I was the only guy able to cook and heat my house when I wanted to for a week. The rest only got an hour of power here, and an hour there. None of the stuff in my fridge had to be tossed out, and my house was the only one on the block that didn't bust pipes. In summer we often get 2-3 hour blackouts after storms. My AC keeps running.

In summary, Buy a generator because of point four. But don't plan on carrying it around much, unless you will be riding to a place where no plugs exist. It's really great to drive to the mountains, take your generator, and then have power to ride your ebike in the nice scenery. That's how I use mine, and it's great. The trees are too far away to ride there, but once in the hills, there are no plugs. It's great to take a ride, charge and have a beer, ride more, charge again, all day long.

"... riding along with a wind turbine."

Some sailors used to (maybe still do) refer to gasoline-powered boats as "stink pots"... And a sailor uses watt to get around on the water? (I forget)... And how much does THAT cost (refresh my memory)?

I would like to see Michael Plogue renderings in 3 wheel vehicles ala a Volt some type of hybrid.

If you are the long ranger, then yeehaw. However, I will tell you that there have been several military sponsored competitions and programs to create small 250-1000 w personal generators capable of being carried by the individual soldier, capable of using a variety of fuel sources, at much higher efficiency, without some of the signal inversion losses. The ones I have seen created for the competition were about the size of water bottles, one was even the size of a coffee cup but it was something like 80 w. So, even for remotely charging small devices, disaster preparedness, etc. you are on the right track according to the gentleman who brought you the bomb, gps, the internet, moon rocks etc.. These competitions should be finished or at least close, so, you might check...always interesting to see what they come up with. If you are not being blown up by it, I suppose.

Report back.

It occurs to me the "OP" may be somewhere out in the country... Or otherwise "off the grid", and far removed from any electrical plug... Myself, I'm sorta a "city kid", where electricity is "all aroung us"? Guess I should check how long it takes me (my battery pack) to recharge... I'm usually asleep or something... I did travel something of a "distance" the other day, but that was only from downtown (Toronto) to the other side of Bramalea... A distance of only maybe 70 km (aka a little over 43 miles), but I did get to "take a break" and plug in on the way (recharge the batt a bit), while eating lunch... Or maybe the OP is still riding watt some of us might affectionately term a "lead sled" (with a heavier SLA batt pack, plus shorter range per charge).

L

dogman said:

SCOFF SCOFF SCOFF. Good ol ES for ya. You'd think he suggested riding along with a wind turbine.

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I expected to see some disapproval for the idea, but I think there's some serious applications for gas power. If one ever needs a lot of energy for some reason (Like say, someone wants to travel 35mph for 200 miles for a one off trip - might require 5 kwh), gas becomes more economical than buying the equivalent in batteries. Also, if someone runs the gas at the same time while riding, you never have to stop somewhere to charge(or if you do, you can choose WHERE to recharge), which is a significant savings in time plus you don't risk unwanted attention at the outlet. In sum, gas seems pretty ideal for long distance trips and any trips that require going over mountain passes or lots of energy-sucking terrain, like loose dirt, gravel or sand. (I.e., trails)

There's an application I was thinking about needing a high amount of energy available and that was for propelling an inflatable kayak 35 miles down a lake w/in a day. My research indicates that it would require about 75wh/mi, about 2625 wh, to accomplish that with a trolling motor. That puts me a touch out of range for my 1000wh lithium pack and there's nowhere to recharge on a lake, lol. A gas generator would be ideal for that kind of app (Though, I would probably worry about getting the gas gen wet...).

I'm personally a bit wary of the reliability of a generator. Even though I've never owned one, I get the impression they break down a lot. Correct me if I'm wrong.

(I was looking at that generator a few weeks ago. I personally trust honda generators for their reliability a bit more, but it seems like they don't offer anything less than 2000 watts currently. They used to provide a variety of wattages anywhere from 80 watts to 500 watts back in the old days.)