Ypedal
100 TW
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery
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The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiasts
- Thread starter justin_le
- Start date
Marc S.
100 W
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_at_high_and_low_temperatures
Ypedal said:
Even better YPedal, you can attach a 10K thermistor to any of your battery packs between Gnd and the 3rd pin of the XLR plug, and then see your actual battery temperature rather than just the charger temperature on the Satiator display. Then even if the Satiator is warm from being used you can still observe the true pack temperature.
This warrants more than just a paraphrase from wikipedia. Would love to see direct from-the-source testing results from entities that have actually studied the matter (like Tesla presumably), but everything anecdotal seems to suggest charging above 0 celcius is generally OK. I do find it odd that there's no problem discharging at like -10C (living with a much higher internal resistance of course) but that the reverse reaction is problematic, although at least the Cadex quote gives reason why this could be the case.
After many intervening events, I finally got a chance to pull this out and start testing it with the Satiator, vs the original charger.amberwolf said:
Rest over here to keep thread clear:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=64279#p1126990
mrbill
10 kW
Just thought I ought to publicly note that I've recently started getting frequent Power Faults. I'm using v1.008, and the faults occur more frequently when my pack is nearly fully discharged, say, to 3.3v/cell no load. Pack is 7s18p Samsung INR-18650-29E cells.
The faults can be cleared by unplugging the Satiator for about 15 seconds, then re-plugging and selecting the charge profile. Once in a while I get two faults in a row.
The faults can be cleared by unplugging the Satiator for about 15 seconds, then re-plugging and selecting the charge profile. Once in a while I get two faults in a row.
parabellum
1 MW
How many thousands of cycles do you want?diff_lock said:
Remember, those are not Lipo's.
mrbill
10 kW
parabellum said:How many thousands of cycles do you want?diff_lock said:
Thanks for your concern.
These packs see 50-100 cycles annually, so I suspect I suffer more from calendar aging than cycling stress.
I usually discharge to about 10-20% SoC, but lately I've been hitting 2-5% SoC due to riding longer than I expected and the colder weather that reduces expected capacity. On the CAV3 I see IR of 25-33 mOhms during most of the discharge, but when the battery drops below about 5% SoC I have observed IR between 40 and 45 mOhms.
The only time I discharge (at rate of about 0.3C) to BMS cutoff (first cell to fall below 2.8 volts) is when I run my annual capacity test, which I try to do in early January when the weather is cold.
That said, and to get the thread back on-topic, I hadn't seen the Power Fault error until I lately found myself charging nearly discharged batteries. So, maybe the fault tolerance for this error needs to be relaxed further.
parabellum said:How many thousands of cycles do you want?
I need to get at least 40,000 km of use (to beat the cost of a gasoline scooter), so lets say that's 1500-2000 cycles. Running 14s13p, Samsung 29e, 1800Wh and pulling 2.5C more often than I should because it turns out to be fun.
I use a 70% profile on the Satiator most often and discharge to 40%. If I get closer to 30% after a ride I have a 40% profile for storage. I don't even need to hit the 70% SOC. Commute is only 300Wh (less than an hr charge) and I charge before going back home too.
Biggest concern has become that I run the Satiator at 62C all the time. It isn't rolling back noticeably but 60C doesnt sound good. I am thinking of slapping a heat sink on it.
mrbill
10 kW
diff_lock said:
The Power Fault occurs when the Satiator starts to feed charging current through the battery, when it first switches "on" its charge cycle. Someone else may be able to explain it better, but I think the fault occurs when the Satiator thinks it's feeding current into a short circuit or something with too low resistance. This seems to occur most often when charging large battery packs that have naturally low IR.
justin_le said:
Forgot to answer this..
My use would be to power something at a chosen voltage (like LED lights) or as an extra/backup lab supply. The force start option helps, but it would be nice to have a 'power supply mode' where one can adjust the voltage (using up/down keys) during use, and if possible - in use adjustable current limiting as well.
I've been using the NiMH mode for a while now. It doesnt always complete the charge when using it with thermistor, but the cause may be that I need to tune some of the parameters more (the 34S NiMH pack is also getting a bit worn now, it may be due to higher internal temp rise..).
There also seems to still be a bug when charging with a thermistor connected but with thermistor mode set to false. It still says 'charging to 1.0deg/m' when starting, but if I disconnect the third powerpole connector for the thermistor it changes and says charging to -0.3V deltaV (as I want it to always do when thermistor is set to false).
mrbill said:
Hi Bill, with the 1.008 firmware you should be able to clear the power fault message by pressing the buttons (or unplug the pack first, then press a button). When this happens next time, can you see if you can exit the power fault screen without unpowering the Satiator, and then attempt to charge it again? If it immediately shows the power fault error message again, then indeed there is something in your setup that is causing the Satiator's hardwired hardware over-power protection to trip, which can only be reset by powering off. But if it's able to start charging again, without the Satiator being unplugged and replugged from AC, then it's a false indicator.
I do wonder if this might be related to burp mode behavior of the power stage when it is starting off into these lower voltage packs, since a flat 7s battery will have you at voltages where it would behave this way at the lower ramp-up currents.
mrbill
10 kW
justin_le said:
Hi Justin:
I was able easily to summon the Power Fault again. The Power Fault seems to occur most frequently when the Satiator is cold. After it had been sitting in the sun doing nothing for several minutes and had warmed up, I could not prompt a Power Fault.
I tried resetting the Satiator by pressing either button, but when the charge cycle re-started it presented the Power Fault after about 1 second of sitting at 0.0 amps. I then tried unplugging the battery (but not the mains), then pressing a button. That put the Satiator in the mode of waiting for the battery to be connected or reconnected. Upon reconnecting the battery, the Power Fault occurred, again after about 1 second, as above. The only way to clear the error is to unplug the mains for 15 or more seconds (whether or not the battery is connected), then try again. Sometimes it gives the error twice in a row when resetting the Satiator in this manner, but so far I've always been able to get it to start charging upon the third unplug-wait-15-seconds-replug attempt.
My battery when testing was a 7s/18p Samsung INR18650-29E at 25.7 volts no load.
OK Thanks Bill, that is perfect info and indicates that you are with 100% certainty tripping the power surge fault protection of the Satiator. It's not some kind of glitch in the firmware, and it's almost for sure a consequence of the low voltage pack with very low impedance allowing higher than normal current spikes during the burp-mode behavior the Satiator's output is ramping up from zero. Once the current has ramped up then it will be in continuous duty mode and this scenario should no longer be present, which is why you only observed it at the very start of charging.
Anyways the good news for you is that my next post will be on the availability of the 24V 15A (and 72V 5A) Satiator models, and the 24V model will be much better suited to these 7S packs since it will now be in the sweet spot of the power stage's output, and you'll be getting 15A of charge current too
Anyways the good news for you is that my next post will be on the availability of the 24V 15A (and 72V 5A) Satiator models, and the 24V model will be much better suited to these 7S packs since it will now be in the sweet spot of the power stage's output, and you'll be getting 15A of charge current too
And we have it! After some agonizing months sorting out last minute issues we're ready to make available both the 24V 15A version and high voltage 72V 5A Satiator devices. It's a pretty limited run, with about 15 pieces of the 24V unit at ~80 pieces of the 72V devices available in total.
The 72V unit has a max output of 103Volts so you can use it with up to 24S packs, but otherwise looks just like the standard 48V Satiators with the XLR output cable and is available here
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/experimental/satiator7205.html
The 24V unit has a max output of 30V, so good for 7s lithium or 8s LiFePO4, but because of the higher current output we couldn't use the connectorized output on the Satiator so instead it's 4 conductors going through a grommet. A DC+, DC-, communication signal, and the 4th wire is to use as an optional remote LED indicator for future firmware releases, since our assumption is that the 24V unit is more likely to have traction in onboard OEM applications. Anyways it's available here:
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/experimental/satiator2415.html
For both these chargers we have not yet gotten the UL and CSA test certification, that's scheduled to happen in January of next year, and for some CYA reasons we'll be confirming with everyone who places and order to ensure that they understand that the device does not have regulatory approval. You can make that easy by stating as much in the comments of the order checkout, like "I understand that this is a beta/pilot charger which does not have regulatory test approval". Hopefully that's not too much of a disincentive, since we're in a funny situation of needing to sell these devices to raise the $20K needed to pay for the lab certification testing
Anyways I hope this is in time to make the christmas list of a few eager ES'ers. We should have shipments going out starting tomorrow or Friday. I'll have posts by Friday with an updated satiator software suite that automatically detects which model you have plugged in and adjust the voltage/current limits accordingly. And you may have noticed that we've also added the 24V and 72V Satiator support in our charge simulator web app too:
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/charge-simulator.html
The 72V unit has a max output of 103Volts so you can use it with up to 24S packs, but otherwise looks just like the standard 48V Satiators with the XLR output cable and is available here
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/experimental/satiator7205.html
The 24V unit has a max output of 30V, so good for 7s lithium or 8s LiFePO4, but because of the higher current output we couldn't use the connectorized output on the Satiator so instead it's 4 conductors going through a grommet. A DC+, DC-, communication signal, and the 4th wire is to use as an optional remote LED indicator for future firmware releases, since our assumption is that the 24V unit is more likely to have traction in onboard OEM applications. Anyways it's available here:
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/experimental/satiator2415.html
For both these chargers we have not yet gotten the UL and CSA test certification, that's scheduled to happen in January of next year, and for some CYA reasons we'll be confirming with everyone who places and order to ensure that they understand that the device does not have regulatory approval. You can make that easy by stating as much in the comments of the order checkout, like "I understand that this is a beta/pilot charger which does not have regulatory test approval". Hopefully that's not too much of a disincentive, since we're in a funny situation of needing to sell these devices to raise the $20K needed to pay for the lab certification testing
Anyways I hope this is in time to make the christmas list of a few eager ES'ers. We should have shipments going out starting tomorrow or Friday. I'll have posts by Friday with an updated satiator software suite that automatically detects which model you have plugged in and adjust the voltage/current limits accordingly. And you may have noticed that we've also added the 24V and 72V Satiator support in our charge simulator web app too:
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/charge-simulator.html
ecycler said:
In the same way that it's not ideal to use the standard Satiator for 12V batteries, it's not ideal to use the high voltage satiator on 24V packs. It can do it, but the power stage is frequently in burp mode operation and is running at lower efficiency and power levels than in the sweet spot of operation which is in the range from 60%-100% of the full charge voltage. So if you are mostly wanting to charge high voltage packs and just occasionally top up a 24V battery it should be OK, but if 24V is your main battery then I'd get either the standard or low voltage Satiator model.
MrDude_1
100 kW
justin_le said:
Is the Charge Simulator ever going to support lipo packs? Specifically I am intrested in the 5ah 4s Turnigy bricks, but any pouch hobby lipo would model ok for me...
As I understand it, it uses measured cell internal resistance in it's calculations.
I also seem to recall from posts here on ES and elsewhere that this is inconsistent (sometimes wildly) in such hobby packs, and so the simulator would need some sort of notation that pops up to advise the user of that, and that it's results might not be what'd really be seen with such packs, because of it.
I might be misunderstanding the amount of effect that might have on the simulator, though.
I also seem to recall from posts here on ES and elsewhere that this is inconsistent (sometimes wildly) in such hobby packs, and so the simulator would need some sort of notation that pops up to advise the user of that, and that it's results might not be what'd really be seen with such packs, because of it.
I might be misunderstanding the amount of effect that might have on the simulator, though.
MrDude_1 said:
It's a fair question, but having been witness to so many unpleasant LiPo incidents, I've made a conscious decision to avoid any kind of promotion or even mention of the use of Turnigy of other hobby grade LiPo as an option for ebikes. If I model and add these cells to the list, then in some sense that is legitimizing the use of the Satiator to bulk charge non-bms protected LiPo packs for people who really shouldn't be doing that. That's not to pass judgement on people here who know what they are doing and the risks involved, but I really want to keep that list of people small and contained!
If there were some legitimate ebike related lithium polymer cell brands that are widely used and respected in the industry then I would model those, but as far as I can tell the entire ebike world, from the very high end to the very generic, has moved to 18650's.
justin_le said:
I applaud that response!
Regarding my original question. I am about to thin the herd, but my stable currently ranges from a 24v Ping to a 24s10P hotrod pack and everything in between! I have multiple RC and bulk chargers for the 8s and 10s packs I use for my wife's ebike and skateboard, etc. so I will just continue to use those and save the Satiator for the 36v+ packs. I basically want to simplify my charging station as it is crazy to keep up with all the wires and plugs! Did you ever make the firmware changes if one were to experimentally use diodes and a CV charger to charge beyond the 103v limit like you and Luke were discussing at the beginning of the thread before this higher voltage satiator was released?
Ykick said:
Well, hopefully your and many other people's Christmas wish can now be granted! We'll be shipping right up until Tuesday of next week and any orders that come in over the weekend with fedex shipping selected should arrive by the 25th.
I should mention too that one of the things we've been doing is a low vacuum air leakage test validate the gasket seal and water tightness of each device since many of the setbacks that we faced were related to minor enclosure defects which could compromise the sealing.
With a bit of rework we've been able to get a majority to pass this so that we can be confident that they'll live up to a watertight IP rating. However, there have been a few that no matter what seem to have a persistent small leakage. So if there are high voltage satiator beta testers who don't really need a certified watertight enclosure, then rather than attempt to fully rework these we could offer them at a discount instead. I mean they'll still be totally splash proof etc. but if you use the charger regularly out in the rain then there's a good chance of them drawing moisture inside.
Ykick
1 GW
justin_le said:
Oh damn, so Christmas poor right now!
Missus will be giving me stink-eye for a while but I really do want/need one of these… How best to inquire about one of those “discounted” non-watertight Satiators?
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