MAC motor worth it?

dogman dan said:

Hand turn your motor forward, then back. If it feels the same both ways your clutch is not working, or you don't have one.

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Thanks - this is my first hub motor. It does feel the same both ways, and there's a squeak just when starting and stopping. Is there a "break in" period with these? I was a bit surprised that I couldn't pedal faster than 10 mph without minimal throttle, but that makes perfect sense if I'm overcoming the gears and back EMF.

The axle is 12mm with 10mm flats, with the cable exit cut like the GMAC, just without the splines. Also, I was able to fit a 160mm disc rotor without using the included spacer, which was nice. Branding is "MAC 1000W" and serial number.

The 12mm axle with 10mm flats sounds like a rear MAC cassette motor.

The "Freewheel" rear MAC has 14mm axle with 10mm flats so the axle is a little stronger than the cassette version.

A few questions please...

Is either end of your axle hollow?

You said it has the L1019 cable?

Where did you buy it and was it new?

I like the side exit cabling and may have to buy one.

Thanks

The axles have a shallow ~2.8mm pilot hole at either end but are otherwise solid - the L1019 cable exits along a groove like the GMAC. I had to use a spacer inside the torque washer so that the tab wouldn't cut into the cable.

I ordered new from Eunorau: https://eunorau-ebike.com/collectio...-28-wheel-electric-bike-conversion-kit-45km-h

Pros:
Pre-built with a 26/27.5/28" wheel - the 28" is actually 700c with a 19mm ID /25mm OD
Controller supports Cycle Analyst, possibly has 4110s (60+ volt support?) but can't confirm
Express shipping from Hong Kong
28" wheel build weighs only 10.2 pounds before tube/tire/cassette
Value-priced (10% off with coupon for $500+ orders; I added brake sensors)

Neutral:
2.3mm spokes - at least they're not 12G
L1019 harness is longer than I need, but will be plenty for most builds
Controller uses bullets for motor phase and battery

Cons:
Limited rim sizes (ask if they have others?)
Item description could be better (are these all clutch-less, or did I get a unicorn?)
Needs a more advanced controller to reach its full potential

Thanks for the info.

MAC does make a plate that can replace the freewheel clutch in the motor...possible that is in your motor. I just bought the plate but have not had a chance to install it yet.

The L1019 connectors are convenient but limit the amount of amperage you can use. I have seen them several places and some say 45A max and some say 40A max. That should be plenty for 90% of users.

I am a huge MAC fan...mainly because it will produce more torque per amp than any motor out there.

Only real limitation is the amount of power you can run through the motor before it starts to overheat. It only becomes a big concern if you try to go over about 30 mph or continuously climb hills. The Grin Tech Motor Simulator is a great tool that will help you select motors, batteries, controllers, wheels, and tires...just plug in your parameters and the temps it predicts are pretty accurate. I use a 1.4% incline because it matches my real world temps pretty good and according to Justin at Grin Tech, you can run the MAC up to 145C BUT I probably wouldn't push it that far. Maybe set the power to start rolling back at 125C and the motor to shut down if it reaches 135C. I have been running the 125/135 for a while and have had no problems. EM3ev ships their MACs programmed for the power roll back to start at 110C and shut down at 120C...all the programming is done via the Cycle Analyst and it is super simple once you figure it out :lol: .

Thanks again for the info.

The < $500 price seems incredibly low for a MAC kit and battery, but 10T (not 8T) is what would be best for me since the application is off road (as a diversion from a BBS02).

2old said:

The < $500 price seems incredibly low for a MAC kit and battery, but 10T (not 8T) is what would be best for me since the application is off road (as a diversion from a BBS02).

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If your primary use if off road...you will not like a MAC.

Two reasons...

A. Even with a 12T...my MAC overheated. Now I was riding basically single track and speeds were everywhere from 5 to 20 mph. If you keep your speed up and don't have to climb hills, you may be OK i.e. riding open fire roads or hard packed dirt roads where you are not constantly stopping and starting.

B. The freewheel clutch in the MAC has little springs that keep the rollers in place. The rollers get pinched beween two surfaces and that is what engages the clutch. If you ride fast over big roots, rocks, or hard bumps...the little springs get knocked out of place and your clutch stops working correctly. Mine just wouldn't release so not a big deal but I can't predict all the failure modes.

If you are going to ride off road with constant starting and stopping, climb decent size hills, or ride over harsh bumps...I'd highly recommend a BBSHD or at least the BBS01/02 because you can change the gearing so the motor runs efficiently at whatever speed you need.

I tried oil cooling and water cooling my 12T MAC...it works but there are some issues like leakage that make it pretty much a pain in the butt AND if you are using oil and it leaks on your brake rotor...your brakes completely quit working :wink: .

Something else you can do to help a MAC is run a small diameter wheel/tire. It is the only way to change the effective gearing of a hub motor or a geared hub motor. I tried a 20" tire for a while but I didn't like it because it messes up the geometry of the steering because the rear of the bike drops down too much and the bike steers extremely slow.

That is a good price $489...that does not include a battery from what I could tell. You will need a Cycle Analyst IMO. You can not monitor or utilize the automatic power reduction or shut down features unless you have one. The kit will work without it but I wouldn't recommend it since you have no way of telling how hot your motor is getting internally.

The same basic kit from EM3ev runs about $550 delivered to the US. This does not include a cycle analyst.

Again, the connector will limit the amperage you can run but it will be fine for most users. The connector is more convenient than the wiring coming out the end of the axle like the EM3ev. So there are trade offs.

For any newbies...IMO you do NOT need the switch on your brakes that kills the power. YES it is safer but you'll get frustrated waiting for the power to come back on EVERY time you touch the brakes. Had a good friend who went with the automatic cut offs and after his first ride he disconnected them .

colsaunders2 said:

It does feel the same both ways, and there's a squeak just when starting and stopping.
<snip>
Also, I was able to fit a 160mm disc rotor without using the included spacer, which was nice.

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Back out the disc bolts a few mm. You may have the bolts in so far, without the spacer, that they are "locking" the hub casing to the motor inside.

amberwolf said:

Back out the disc bolts a few mm. You may have the bolts in so far, without the spacer, that they are "locking" the hub casing to the motor inside.

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Good point. I backed out the bolts but there was no change. Checked the length against some other bolts I had, and the MAC's were shorter. The sound was present even without the wheel mounted. I'm not concerned about it - thinking that the hub just needs some time to break in.

Found a solution to the 'cogging' while pedaling unpowered (battery off). Holding the throttle apparently drains the residual power and drops the resistance, allowing me to pedal about 15 mph. Not bad for a single-speed belt setup.

Bullfrog said:

For any newbies...IMO you do NOT need the switch on your brakes that kills the power. YES it is safer but you'll get frustrated waiting for the power to come back on EVERY time you touch the brakes. Had a good friend who went with the automatic cut offs and after his first ride he disconnected them .

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I'm sure that's true if you like to basically run the motor and the brakes at the same time, like the car drivers you see with their brake lights coming on all the time. It's the first time I've seen any complaint about it, though, so I have to wonder if it's all that common a problem. What kind of riding was your friend into - some kind of off road, maybe? Bicycle messenger?

colsaunders2 said:

Found a solution to the 'cogging' while pedaling unpowered (battery off). Holding the throttle apparently drains the residual power and drops the resistance, allowing me to pedal about 15 mph. Not bad for a single-speed belt setup.

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Which confirms that you have a clutchless GMAC style hub there, right?

colsaunders2 said:

Found a solution to the 'cogging' while pedaling unpowered (battery off). Holding the throttle apparently drains the residual power and drops the resistance, allowing me to pedal about 15 mph.

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Holding the throttle doesn't "drain" power, it provides power *to* the motor, more of it the more engaged the throttle is.

Some controllers (like Phaserunner) have an option to setup a "freewheel" current, specifcally for direct drive / clutchless geared hubs, to remove the unpowered resistance to pedalling.

It's usually not enough current to cause the motor to move you, just enough to counter the "generator" mode of operation at low speeds.

The Cycle Analyst v3 could also be setup to do this, for any controller.

Bullfrog said:

For any newbies...IMO you do NOT need the switch on your brakes that kills the power. YES it is safer but you'll get frustrated waiting for the power to come back on EVERY time you touch the brakes. Had a good friend who went with the automatic cut offs and after his first ride he disconnected them .

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That just means it's a poorly designed (or setup) controller (the most common kind, unfortunately). Good ones wont' have a delay (or will have a programmable one able to be set to zero).

FWIW, you *do* need the switch on the brakes if you want to use regenerative (or other forms of electric) braking, for almost all controllers. (A few use only the throttle for braking, or have some other special control for it). Most of them use just on/off regen braking, so the switch directly controls it. Some use the switch to turn the throttle into a braking control instead of an acceleration control.


So you shouldn't just tell everyone they don't need the switch, or that it will cause delays in restarting acceleration, because it is not necessarily true.

I have never used the brake lever switch for brakes, but its wise to use regen braking when on a direct drive hub motor, as it saves a lot of money on brake pads. Some people go years and years without replacing brake pads, I go a few months but I dont ride all that fast neither. I tested my speed yesterday with my cell and a gps speed app, 15kph is a tad slow, 20kph is cruising speed, 25kph is a faster cruising speed, while 30kph is moving at a good fast speed for me. There are times though I like to go full wide open throttle, 35kph on 36V which is more then enough for me.

amberwolf said:

That just means it's a poorly designed (or setup) controller (the most common kind, unfortunately). Good ones wont' have a delay (or will have a programmable one able to be set to zero).

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I'm going to have to get on my bicycle one of these days and find out if I have a good one - wasn't aware if I had this problem, but I don't generally ride that way. I assume it would be noticeable mainly when going up hill, where you'd need the motor power to come right back because you're losing a lot of momentum. Could it be that what seems like a delay is the same thing that was recently touted here as a virtue of some of the better controllers, an acceleration "ramp up"? So you'd need to configure that down?

donn said:

I assume it would be noticeable mainly when going up hill, where you'd need the motor power to come right back because you're losing a lot of momentum.

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Depending on how the particular controller works, it may be obvious even just riding slowly on flat road.

I had a Fusin kit that was like this, using a LiShui controller and Kingmeter LCD, but it was not configurable at all (unlike some LiShui controllers). If you used the ebrake, the controller would cutout for at least a second, maybe more. So if you were riding along and something happened that caused your instinct to brake to begin, then you overrode that because it wasn't needed, then even though you never let go of the throttle it still didn't do anything further until the delay was over. It didn't feel like a ramp up, but could have been a fast ramp (asymptotic curve rather than linear, etc); it did not have this delay when just throttling up, so probably not a ramp.

Could it be that what seems like a delay is the same thing that was recently touted here as a virtue of some of the better controllers, an acceleration "ramp up"? So you'd need to configure that down?

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Depends. If there is a ramp on the throttle, it should affect throttle operation regardless of ebrake use. So you would have the same ramp up if you were at say, 10mph, and just let the throttle off then slammed it on again, as if you hit the ebrake at that moment without letting go of the throttle.

But if there is just a delay after brake release, and no throttle ramp, then the throttle would instantly respond when just letting it off and slamming it back on, but would not do so after you use and release the ebrake.



On the Cycle Analyst v3, for instance, you can configure ramping, so assuming the controller has no delay, you can create one if you need it. Some controllers have this ability as well.

On the current model Grinfineon, there appears to be no delay, but on a much older one it had a little less than a second's delay, and did not appear to be a ramping up, just a delay, because it always responded to throttle instantly except after using the ebrake.

On another generic I have, it definitely has a ramp up, but that's a function of the throttle itself, and not because of using the brake. It does that every time the throttle is engaged regardless of how quickly you move the throttle, or whether you have used the ebrake or not.

Another generic has no delay and no ramp up. Response is isntantaneous in any of the above circumstances.

Etc.

Response of controllers varies quite a bit, but most of the generics dont' have a way to change this particular behavior; some of the newer ones with displays *may* have this ability, but only if that batch of them wasn't factory-preset (permanent) to disallow end-user access to those settings.

BTW, the ability to add a ramp-up is only a virtue if you can't control your use of throttle ("lead foot") but need to prevent instant throttle response for some reason, like the list below:

-- System's hardware (axle, dropouts, chain, whatever is the torque transmission device) can't handle the instantaneous torque produced from sudden throttle demand changes.

-- Battery can't handle the current spike from sudden throttle demand changes

-- Rider can't deal with sudden torque changes, can't control the throttle well enough, etc., to prevent wheelies or other loss of control (like loss of traction, wheelspin, etc).



Generally these are all problems in fairly high power (several kW+) systems, and not typically an issue in low-power (say, under 500w) systems.

They aren't typically a problem in high power systems that use current (torque) throttle control rather than voltage (speed/pwm) throttle control, as the rider has much finer control over what the system does, that way.

Not sure this is feasible since none of my bikes have regen but can you set it up using a left thumb throttle so you get variable braking/regen?

I believe the brake switch will only give you a fixed amount of braking/regen...somebody correct me if I am wrong .

The time it takes for the motor to come back on after you hit the brakes and kill the power is only an issue if you are riding aggressively...off road or on pavement. We were riding fast off road since we both raced MX way back when two strokes were the fast bikes and four strokes were slow :lol: .

Bullfrog said:

Not sure this is feasible since none of my bikes have regen but can you set it up using a left thumb throttle so you get variable braking/regen?

I believe the brake switch will only give you a fixed amount of braking/regen...somebody correct me if I am wrong .

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You might want to read my previous reply to you.

amberwolf said:

(A few use only the throttle for braking, or have some other special control for it). Most of them use just on/off regen braking, so the switch directly controls it. Some use the switch to turn the throttle into a braking control instead of an acceleration control.

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Well did a little research and this video is pretty explanatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nyiDbWZuM

Looks like the GMAC with a Phaserunner controller has braking that is proportional to the motor rpm...assuming your battery is capable of accepting the supplied regen amerage. AND like Ambewolf said, you need a switch to activate it and the simplest and easiest way to do that is probably via the brake switch .

I guess I was thinking way to far ahead because I would think it wouldn't be too difficult to have variable regen/braking which you could activate with a thumb throttle on the left side assuming you had the throttle that controlled the amperage from the battery TO the motor on the right side. It is just a chip and a few transistors....sounds super simple doesn't it :lol: .

I guess my statement should have been...I don't see a need for the brake switch unless you have regen capability.

ANY delay is aggravating to me and seems like an eternity when your buddy is passing you coming off a corner and there are times when I want to preload the drivetrain before completely letting off of the break and a switch would not allow it .

Bullfrog said:

I guess I was thinking way to far ahead because I would think it wouldn't be too difficult to have variable regen/braking which you could activate with a thumb throttle on the left side assuming you had the throttle that controlled the amperage from the battery TO the motor on the right side. It is just a chip and a few transistors....sounds super simple doesn't it :lol: .

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It does.

And it can be. But the controller has to support it. The throttle doesn't actually *do* anything other than provide a signal to tell the controller how much of something you want. If the controller doesn't already do that something, it doesnt' matter what you tell it to do.

There *are* controllers that do use just a simple, separate, analog input for the ebrake, to control the variable / proportional regen. This project
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=105711
will do that, once it's complete, on my SB Cruiser trike.

But you don't have to use a throttle (twist grip, thumb, etc) to control it. You can use just a brake lever, if you like. You can even use a brake lever to control the regen for the phaserunner, grinfineon, etc, that use a switch to activate it and a throttle to control it.

This thread
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=105460
shows how to do that, in a few ways. The first is how the trike is setup now.

But you do have to have a controller that offers some form of analog-controllable regen, first.



IIRC, it's been attempted to control the amount of braking with on/off regen controllers by PWMing the ebrake input to get some control over it...but it doesn't work because there actually *is* a delay even with the best controllers--it's just so small that normally you couldn't tell. But the PWM pulses are so short and close together that the controller can't tell the difference between them and just keeping the lever pulled.

Amberwolf...thanks for the info and the links, watching a video now...figures "Honda" would have one of the better designs, I have always admired their engineering :wink: . My expertise is more in the "mechanical" side of things...it is a lot simpler when you can see what is happening, only reason I know those spark chasers are correct is that my TV remote control works. The guy doing the videos on the Honda set up does a super job of explaining everything...even I can understand it :lol: .

All...I suggested to Justin he sell a kit to enable a MAC to have regen...he cautioned me and I am paraphrasing Justin...Potential problems include "the keystock shearing off, the motor stator wiggling loose, problems with the external axle nuts, and lack of room for a bonding torque arm...and the worst with the MAC motors is that the ring gear is threaded into the motor shell, so with regen torque it unscrews itself and then binds up against the rotor and totally locks the wheel up. According to Justin, the GMAC addresses all those problem areas....

All...there is a presentation by Justin on Youtube at 9 am CST this morning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c96n0Ma2rLY&list=PLH8T1SX8ZJv_-5jh18xosYCH08jmdL_-T

Bullfrog said:

...and the worst with the MAC motors is that the ring gear is threaded into the motor shell, so with regen torque it unscrews itself and then binds up against the rotor and totally locks the wheel up. According to Justin, the GMAC addresses all those problem areas....

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This might explain the odd behavior I've noticed with mine especially while running with everything switched off. Frequently, when braking it feels like the wheel "locks up" as if the brakes were applied too hard. Fortunately, I don't think it's ever actually locked the wheel, or it's freed up right away. The resistance usually goes away when I resume pedaling, but if not, a pull on the throttle will eliminate it.

Bullfrog said:

figures "Honda" would have one of the better designs, I have always admired their engineering :wink: .

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*All* of the OEM EV inverters are better designed than the stuff you generally find on your ebike, becuase almsot all the ebike stuff descends from the same primitive sources, with minor changes to get different features....but the basic designs are intended to be cheap to manufacture, regardless of field performance.

There are exceptions, but they were generally designed from scratch, for a specific purpose, by someone that didn't have manufacturing costs, etc., in mind.

All...I suggested to Justin he sell a kit to enable a MAC to have regen...he cautioned me and I am paraphrasing Justin...Potential problems include "the keystock shearing off, the motor stator wiggling loose, problems with the external axle nuts, and lack of room for a bonding torque arm...and the worst with the MAC motors is that the ring gear is threaded into the motor shell, so with regen torque it unscrews itself and then binds up against the rotor and totally locks the wheel up. According to Justin, the GMAC addresses all those problem areas....

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Yes, that is why he had the GMAC created, because just locking up the clutch on a regular geared hub "works", each design has it's quirks (usually done for manufacturing reasons) that can make that problematic.

Things are usually more complicated than they seem at first look. This is why you can find so many unfinished projects around here (especially mine); it became impractical, or even impossible, to actually do what was wanted, vs doing something in a different way or with different parts, etc.

Bullfrog, thanks for the info on the MAC off road. I have a BBS02 which has been great for five years at 52V, but was looking for a project during this weird interval in life. Also agree about not needing the brake sensors.

Amberwolf...I am with you on unfinished projects :lol: . I get all these grandiose ideas and then realize it is never as simple as I envisioned.

colsaunders2...what about a MAC build for use on hard packed and/or paved surfaces or a BBSHD with a high amperage controller? Just don't follow my example below.

FAT BIKE TIRES AT HIGH SPEEDS...well I should have stuck with my 26x3.8" Maxxis FBR. Mounted a new Vee Apache Fatty Slick that is 26x4.5" to get the rolling resistance down and at 15 psi (minimum inflation pressure) I went around a corner at about 30 mph and the rear end slid out with the asphalt coming up to meet me very rapidly . 16 stitches in my left forearm and some severe abrasion and bruises on my left hip and my right should...landed on the left hip/left forearm and after realizing I was just about out of meat on that side I rolled to the right shoulder. Totally my fault...there was a little loose gravel/sand in the corner and although the slick rolls really fast, the traction absolutely SUCKS if the pavement isn't perfectly clean. Been through the same corner 100s of times without issue using tires with tread. Hope all can learn from my mistakes...I have made enough of them for a few lifetimes. It is really tough be a 12 year old trapped in an old man's body and now the old man's body is going to really slow me down for a little while. Only smart thing I did was wear a helmet so no cranial damage but there isn't a lot up there to damage anyway it seems after the stunt today .