GNG BB drive (Sensorless)

snellemin · Oct 15, 2012

I build me a center drive ebike with a GNG kit with 12s1p lipo. The kit needed some tweaking and got it to work. Found me a Giant Prodigy frame on ebay and started from there. Well the bike is nice and light, but can't handle the torque the motor/gearing setup produces. The rear of the frame just twist under load. Bummer that after all that work, I will have to take it apart again and set it up with as something different. So I stuck it in a Hard tail Fuji bike. I'm going to use Lyen 6fet mini monster, Left hand throttle, 3 speed switch, with 14s1p lipo.
Replaced some of the metal spacers with Nylon ones. The spring on the idler is tighten up a bit, adding some tension to it. I'll add some threat locker too. Got to see what other screws I can find at the Ace hardware store. Still need to finished wiring it up and adding the CA. Installed a Connex 9 speed chain, hoping I won't snap like the chain on the Prodigy.

Pics of the Prodigy, which now back to a regular bike which the wife uses.

Here's the Fuji Nevada 1.0 hard tail.

Cyclebutt · Oct 17, 2012

Nice bikes! I tested this rig on a WallyWorld Next and tore that thing up on trails, in about an hour. Hopefully this F5 will do better. It's single speed now but will be converting to 7 spd as soon as I finish my home made chain guide. Had chain drop issues with the first bike, don't want to beat up the finish on this one.

snellemin · Oct 17, 2012

Nice bike man.

I'm having issues with my setup right now. It cuts off intermittently. Tried different throttles and different controllers with the same issues. Good news is that I haven't snapped the wipperman chain. Will need to troubleshoot it some more with a sensorless controller instead.

I really wanted a light low power torque monster for the trails and this was it. Running the Magic Pie on 24s on the trails is fun, but certainly not light like the GNG.

snellemin · Oct 28, 2012

I'm going to install a chain guide on mine. Chain fell today on the trails and its a good thing I have the connex chain with the easy removable link. I need more amperage and gonna try to run this motor sensorless one of these days. I have no issues with my chain idler and stock spring. Just added tension to the spring and it's still holding up. Belt is still ok, but have a Goodyear belt as back up just to be save. MTB trail was busy today and had quite a few that was asking questions about the setup. One dude even rode it around a bit and was impressed with running it through soft sand.

Cyclemeter Map
https://maps.google.com/?q=http://s.../4f26/0f90/Cyclemeter-Cycle-20121028-1018.kml

gorach · Oct 29, 2012

Hi Snelleman, the flex issues you had on the prodigy-are they related to the swing arm on the suspension unit and distortion of the chain line? I am looking for a s/h full suspension bike for the GNG unit and want to know what to avoid. cheers hech.

Cyclebutt · Oct 29, 2012

Chain guide

snellemin · Oct 29, 2012

Hi Gorach. The swing arm on the Prodigy really flexed under load due to the design of it. I didn't install it on my other full suspension bike too see if I still would have the same issues.

I bought me a Origin8 Torqlite UL Chain Guide - 31.8/34.9mm Clamp and an Ebay chain tensioner. I'll see how they will work out.

$(KGrHqZHJDYE-87eZ,SGBP4(4U3tuQ~~60_12.JPG

ebiker1 · Oct 29, 2012

snellemin

that prodigy is a great looking bike build. i'm just getting started with one of those kits that i'm putting on a montague paratrooper (hummer). that's only because i have the bike already and think it will be a good combination, ie, lightweight setup that i can still throw on a bus bike rack or stuff in somebody's trunk. i will be looking at this thread closely while i'm building it. BUT, i have thought it would be a great idea to put a different setup on a bike that was already made to be an ebike. i would appreciate any tips from you or any body else that is/has built one. what do you think the limits are for wattage with this motor? before it fry's. no, so it won't fry.

snellemin · Oct 29, 2012

Thanks Ebiker1. I have two other ebikes that I ride as well. One is an EVG bike and runs really well. It's heavy, but really stable at high speeds. No so much with the other full suspension bike. The full suspension bike runs on 12s max. Any more and it looses it's good qualities. Tire choice is key for your build. The wrong tire for your application will mess the feel of the bike up.

Max power for the GNG is still a mystery too me. I ordered another CA and stand alone shunt, so data will be available soon. I also have the Eagletree datalogger and will connect that as well for some power graphs.

I should be getting my Lyen 6fet 4110 sensorless controller back today from repairs. I'll hook it up to the GNG and see how well the controller runs it, if at all. The other thread stated that the Lyen 12 fet sensorless works well.

My stock controller sometimes disables itself. I have to push the bike backwards a bit to get the motor to rotate a bit, for the controller to work again. Intermittent, but still annoying.

snellemin · Oct 29, 2012

Confirmed that the Lyen 6fet sensorless controller works perfectly. I have set the Phase current on 60 and the battery amp current at 25A. Plenty of smooth power, along with the 3 speed switch. Power came from 14s1p lipo.
I had it set at a higher battery and phase settings and it was just way too much. I also got some weird motor noise at that settings, with the motor stopping. I'll have to wait for the CA to get here and go play with the Amp settings within the CA, rather then reprogramming the controller over and over again. The Eagletree will be connected to record the Amp spikes.

Looks like you don't need no stinkin' sensors with this setup.

spinningmagnets · Oct 29, 2012

snellemin, thanks for posting this. Sensorless Lyen 6-FET is small and affordable. Even if a builder was happy with the stock 22A, the Lyen controller allows a CycleAnalyst to vary control of the amps, and the sensorless working well is a bonus (IMHO).

14S Lipo is 52V-58V? times 25A = 1350W? Just trying to get a handle on its working limits. If it works well at an efficient 1350-ish watts, thats good for me (I like too much power as much as the next hot-rodder, but I want to "be the change I wish to see" as an example). Any belt tooth-skipping?

snellemin · Oct 30, 2012

There hasn't been any belt skipping yet during my usage. I just had to adjust the belt tension every so often.

I'll mess with the bike some more today, if work doesn't get in the way.

snellemin · Oct 30, 2012

I just swapped over too the Goodyear Hawk belt. Gonna see how long it will last. Ran with 15s1p lipo in and around the retention pond. Love the unstoppable torque climbing up. It felt pretty fast going with the 12T. Gave the poor 160mm disk brake a good workout. The controller was warm and the motor was barely above ambient.
I'm really loving the 3 speed switch with this setup.

wavezz2k · Oct 30, 2012

really loving this 3 speed setup ..

Could you describe that Lyen 3 spd function a bit more detail, does that set the upper volt limit which the throttle has full range? or is it full volts, but changes the phase frequency? Provides a better throttle control at the lower end of speed for more trails type rides? If yes, that's really intriguing.

Ditto for thanks on posting this, keen on the following comment -

14S Lipo is 52V-58V? times 25A = 1350W? Just trying to get a handle on its working limits. If it works well at an efficient 1350-ish watts, thats good for me

Very cool indeed... can the Lyen 6fet Go up to 72v, as Christerljung has done w/ GNG mod'd belt setup?

ebiker1 · Oct 31, 2012

snellemin said:
Tire choice is key for your build. The wrong tire for your application will mess the feel of the bike up.

still haven't got a handle on that quote thing. i'm running 26x1.95 K-rads. perfect profile and has some grip for the wet weather we get "once in a while" in seattle. are those ok, IYO?

snellemin · Oct 31, 2012

wavezz2k said:
really loving this 3 speed setup ..

Click to expand...

Could you describe that Lyen 3 spd function a bit more detail, does that set the upper volt limit which the throttle has full range? or is it full volts, but changes the phase frequency? Provides a better throttle control at the lower end of speed for more trails type rides? If yes, that's really intriguing.

Very cool indeed... can the Lyen 6fet Go up to 72v, as Christerljung has done w/ GNG mod'd belt setup?

The Lyen 6 fet can go all the way to 24S if you wanted it too. You just have to let him know that is what you are planning to do, so he can mod the controller for you. I have three 6 fets controllers from him and one 12 fet. An 18 fet is in the near future. For where I'm riding, I don't see me needing a 9 fet or 12 controller with the GNG. The 6 Fet 4110 controller is more then enough.

So the 3 speed switch reduces the speed to whatever you program the controller with. Torque stays about the same.
In my case: speed 1 = 40%
speed 2 = 60%
speed 3 = 99%
I tested out the 3 speed setting some more late afternoon. I found that once in a while I will get a full blip of startup torque, lifting up my front tire. After that the controller behaves itself in the lower speed setting.

So I essentially use gears 1->4 and use the 3 speed switch in combination with those 4 gears. Works really nice.
Sometimes I don't require the full power or speed of the controller when running in between trees and whatnot. I don't have to waste time shifting gears, when I have a 3 speed switch that reacts faster. I don't have anybody to go with me on the trails to take vids of the bike in action.

Bad news; My datalogger is messed up for some reason. I can record live data, but not stand alone on the bike. Power surge resetting it somehow.....I'll figure it later.
Good news; The CA has been shipped.
Sensors are really not needed with the GNG setup.

Things to do: Install Bionx inverse brake switches.
Built a center box for the controller and batteries.

o00scorpion00o · Oct 31, 2012

Hi Snellemin

What do you think of the GNG compared to the PIE ? Do you think the pie has much better acceleration and better if you just want sheer acceleration ?

The GNG would probably be best for lots of steep trails where you would be going slow enough which would probably over heat the Pie or any hub really ?

Mark

snellemin · Oct 31, 2012

ebiker1 said:
snellemin said:

Tire choice is key for your build. The wrong tire for your application will mess the feel of the bike up.

still haven't got a handle on that quote thing. i'm running 26x1.95 K-rads. perfect profile and has some grip for the wet weather we get "once in a while" in seattle. are those ok, IYO?

Click to expand...

From me riding on my faster bike, I found that I need way more rubber on the ground the faster I go. I've ridden on 26x2 and didn't like it over 30 mph. I had to slow down way to much to take a corner and it just didn't feel "secure" going fast.
I really love my Michelin's for road riding. 26x2.3 and are really sticky. I've ridden them in heavy rain going 30 mph and not once felt like loosing control. I've even taken them on hard pack mtb trails. I run between 40-50 psi in those tires.

Those K-rads look good and I wouldn't mind trying them out in 26x2.3 or 26x2.5.

Cyclebutt · Oct 31, 2012

snellemin said:
Hi Gorach. The swing arm on the Prodigy really flexed under load due to the design of it. I didn't install it on my other full suspension bike too see if I still would have the same issues.

I bought me a Origin8 Torqlite UL Chain Guide - 31.8/34.9mm Clamp and an Ebay chain tensioner. I'll see how they will work out.

Any chance you could post photos, cost, source, after you mount these? Mine works but it's not very pretty.

Great intel on the Lyen 6 fet controller, note made. I'm pulling around 1000/1100watts (CA stand-alone) under normal usage, all original GNG set-up with a 48v, 20Ahr CI power (looks like a Vpower) brick.

snellemin · Oct 31, 2012

o00scorpion00o said:
Hi Snellemin

What do you think of the GNG compared to the PIE ? Do you think the pie has much better acceleration and better if you just want sheer acceleration ?

The GNG would probably be best for lots of steep trails where you would be going slow enough which would probably over heat the Pie or any hub really ?

Mark

Hey Mark,

The GNG is just a torque monster for the trails. Climbing steep hills with little power is it selling point. A regular hub setup will not do what this setup can. Speed is good too if you can keep the derailleur in check. I'm having issues with gears 13-11 on mine with full power. If I use speed setting two(60%) it runs ok.
The Pie in my EVG pulling a kids trailer(two kids) up a steep hill, has no problem doing so. And it's doing it sensorless! However it is doing it with 24s2p and a 12fet controller. GNG would do it with less power if the rear gear cluster can keep up. I'm not sure if the little skewer on my hard tail can hold all that weight of the trailer and two kids going up a steep hill though.

I rode the pie last Friday during the Houston Critical mass. It's just a conversation piece and everybody is just amazed at the sheer power and acceleration of the beast. I would pedal along @10-14mph with zero motor assist most of the ride. I would just hit the throttle (second speed setting) and take off like the other people where just standing still. An 18 Fet sensorless controller from Lyen is in the near future for the EVG. I will have to upgrade the phase wires coming out of the motor for sure this time around.

The Pie has better acceleration and is maintenance free at the cost of weight when wanting more power out of it. The Pie is so underrated and people should just try it out first.
The GNG has monster torque with a smaller controller and 15s1p lipo. Weight is less and people on the mtb trail didn't notice me having it vs me running a hub motor. It freewheels so easy and keeping up with the 29'ers was easy as "pie".

Here's little vid of a cat almost getting run over in front of me. The cat part is @2.37 into the vid.
[youtube]7OQJ3SmQpeI[/youtube]

hydro-one · Oct 31, 2012

cheater

ebiker1 · Oct 31, 2012

From me riding on my faster bike, I found that I need way more rubber on the ground the faster I go. I've ridden on 26x2 and didn't like it over 30 mph. I had to slow down way to much to take a corner and it just didn't feel "secure" going fast.
I really love my Michelin's for road riding. 26x2.3 and are really sticky. I've ridden them in heavy rain going 30 mph Those K-rads look good and I wouldn't mind trying them out in 26x2.3 or 26x2.5.

and road is probably going to be 95+% of my riding. you wouldn't happen to have any pics of the "fast" bike, eh ? i'd like to see it after seeing those pics of your giant build. .......... and which style/model of michelins?

snellemin · Oct 31, 2012

hydro-one said:
cheater

I hear that all the time.

snellemin · Oct 31, 2012

ebiker1 said:
and road is probably going to be 95+% of my riding. you wouldn't happen to have any pics of the "fast" bike, eh ? i'd like to see it after seeing those pics of your giant build. .......... and which style/model of michelins?

The tires are Michelin Pilot Sport HD Folding Bicycle Tire - w/Protek HD Reflective Sidewall. You can get them on Ebay or Amazon.

Here's a link to the bike build.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37480

spinningmagnets · Oct 31, 2012

snellemin, which 3-speed switch are you using? do you have a link?

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