Newb planning a touring build

[chilehed]

Forgive me when I state the obvious. I’m half thinking out loud and could use some counsel.

I’ve been looking to add a motor to my trusty old skinny tire road bike in order to ease the load on my aging knees. My rides are often long and include 60+ mile days in western North Carolina; a favorite short trip is a 2,000 foot climb over 12 miles, and I still haven’t given up my ambition to ride the Pacific/Atlantic route. In general I’m not interested in speeds much over ~20 mph (that’s what long steep downhills are for: two hours up, twenty minutes down) unless it’s a long day across very boring and remote roads. I’m pretty certain that there’s no way I’ll ever not hate cadence sensing, but am willing to be convinced otherwise. I’m a mechanical engineer, and think I have a fairly decent grasp of the basics of electric power generation and storage.

1983 Cannondale ST500 (yeah, a dinosaur but I love it. Frame is solid.)
Tires: 700x23C
Crankset: 30/43/48 (I use 30 and 48 only rarely)
Freewheel: 13/16/19/22/26/32
Chain and sprockets are the originals, I know I’ll need new ones.

I’ve seen very little discussion online specific to a touring build, most everyone’s looking for MTB or max speed applications. It seems to me that for max efficiency I’d want the highest available voltage, and while I recall seeing motors over 70V they were hub drive. I’ve been interested in the CYC Stealth Gen3, but looking around here I’ve just become aware of the ToSeven DM-01.

I’d appreciate any insight people might have about building for multi-day long distance tours with loaded panniers.

Thanks.

 

[A-DamW]

This is good read for loaded e-touring
Surly E•D•LHT - Touring eBike Build with BBSHD!

 

[A-DamW]

Another good read:
Which kit to fit to a touring bike?

 

[chilehed]

This is good read for loaded e-touring
Surly E•D•LHT - Touring eBike Build with BBSHD!

You ain't a-kiddin'! Very impressive. I hope @Jaded is well and still enjoying the road.

I'm getting more inclined to the CYC Stealth, but am scratching my head about chainring and freewheel selection. The existing freewheel is a Shimano MF-Z012, I've found a used one with identical gearing for sale but I'm concerned about how used it is and how it'd match up with a new chain.

I wouldn't mind a 7-speed freewheel, and the closest match I can find is a SunRace MFM30 13-30. It's new and would be a decent match considering the chainring change from 43 to 38 teeth and the 5mm shorter cranks, but I've heard negative scuttlebutt online about their durability.

Lotta miles on this old girl:

 

[Diggs]

Don't become too attached or spend too much on any freewheel/cassette. If you're touring with the BBSHD you'll need to replace the freewheel/cassette (and usually chain) every season or two from the increased wear.

 

[Mongo]

I'll ask why you're leaning towards bigger motors on a lightweight "skinny tire road bike", as opposed to the CYC Photon, Toseven DM02, or a mid-power geared & cassette-style hub motor (although finding/fitting a rear hub motor in the narrow-ish O.L.D. rear would need extra consideration, I'd guess).

Also, sadly, after you hang ~20 lbs of motor and battery on it, it may no longer be the lightweight, nimble ride you know and love.

 

[Az.]

500W 48V rear hub motor will be probably more than enough for you.

CYC Stealth Gen3 and ToSeven DM-01 are a total overkill.

 

[chilehed]

I'll ask why you're leaning towards bigger motors on a lightweight "skinny tire road bike", as opposed to the CYC Photon, Toseven DM02, or a mid-power geared & cassette-style hub motor (although finding/fitting a rear hub motor in the narrow-ish O.L.D. rear would need extra consideration, I'd guess).

Also, after you hang ~20 lbs of motor and battery on it, it may no longer be the lightweight, nimble ride you know and love.

I'm certain to despise cadence sensing. I'm unsure of how much power assist I'll really need (my knee's really effed up), and would prefer to have more rather than less. I'm concerned about what I hear of the Photon's heat dissipation limits, and the Stealth isn't much heavier and doesn't cost much more. My rear axle is only 125 mm wide. And yeah, when you load a bike for touring it's a lot more cumbersome, been there done that. I just lost fifteen pounds, so...

 

[chilehed]

500W 48V rear hub motor will be probably more than enough for you.

CYC Stealth Gen3 and ToSeven DM-01 are a total overkill.

I've not seen any torque sensing hubs.

Overkill? Probably, but I like overkill.

 

[Az.]

I've not seen any torque sensing hubs.

Overkill? Probably, but I like overkill.

Woosh hub kit with torque sensor

Woosh torque sensor kit with choice of front or rear hub motors. Convert your bike easily into an electric bike in record time.

wooshbikes.co.uk

 

[chilehed]

Woosh hub kit with torque sensor

Woosh torque sensor kit with choice of front or rear hub motors. Convert your bike easily into an electric bike in record time.

wooshbikes.co.uk

Cool, but too power limited. 250 watts ain't making it for me. I know me.

 

[Diggs]

Lotta miles on this old girl:

Mine started out almost the same and is 40 years old. Coming up on 9,000 miles on the BBSHD conversion done 5 years ago. (There's a second battery in parallel in the trunk bag.) After trying different freewheels I settled on a 6-speed Shimano for the last couple of replacements. ...and don't be too sure you won't like cadence sensing. I didn't think I would, but it's great especially with the Bafang "cruise control" controller making the hills go away.

 

[chilehed]

Mine started out almost the same and is 40 years old. Coming up on 9,000 miles on the BBSHD conversion done 5 years ago. (There's a second battery in parallel in the trunk bag.) After trying different freewheels I settled on a 6-speed Shimano for the last couple of replacements.

View attachment 356996

Niiiiice! Swapping out bars to get more upright is definitely in the plan. Stopping by a powder coater today to see what it'll cost me.

 

[Az.]

Cool, but too power limited. 250 watts ain't making it for me. I know me.

It is just the sensor. It does not affect power.

Also don't confuse motor rated power with power used by motor (I was totally confused at the beginning).

Motor on my bike is rated 250W (legal limit) and yet I can set it up for well over 1000W

 

[molybdenum]

One possibility for a skinny tire touring build is keeping it light and lean so it performs much like a bicycle. Keeping the wattage minimal allows you to carry less weight in battery and motor, reduces charging times on the road. These builds are for fit cyclists that want some extra oomph. Have a look at:

Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

The Q100 fits 125mm dropouts.

 

[chilehed]

Cool, much to consider. Thanks for the input.

 

[Mongo]

Grin over at Grin (Home page), for ideas on torque-sensing mid-power hubs - via a torque-sensing spindle and a Cycle Analyst display, for example. But, too wide for your bike - dunno how comfortable you'd be widening an AL frame by >10mm.

At least you'd know how it can be done.

I'd be worried about potato-chipping a 700Cx23mm tire dished wheel at high speeds, and ending up with much more than "just" knee issues.

 

[chilehed]

I'd be worried about potato-chipping a 700Cx23mm tire dished wheel at high speeds

Why so? I've had it up to ~35 mph more times than I can count, and a few times around 40.

 

[Mongo]

Why so? I've had it up to ~35 mph more times than I can count, and a few times around 40.

When installed, an electric motor system will whisper to your bike, "I'm gonna introduce you to a whole new level of pain!" To the entire drivetrain and wheel in the case of a mid-drive, and for a hub motor mostly to the dropouts and wheel. Especially if you wanna go fast, and not just downhill.

Tires, chains, freewheel cogs & bodies, spokes, etc.

I'd make damned sure those wheels and brakes are up to snuff, especially if they're the 41-year-old originals. And I'd install the widest rear tire that'll squeeze through the chain stays.

P.S. Thanks Sam Kinison for the quote

 

[rudivb]

I'd just go BBSHD and get the largest triangle battery you can fit if you want to do serious touring miles and some wild camping like me.

Any bike can be a touring bike this was my previous bike set up for touring:



Now I've got a Surly, I'm excited to use that bike for my next tour!

 

[chilehed]

Spent a day with my BIL trying a few of his builds. I HATE cadence sensing, it's like trying to perform a favor on myself after getting slathered down with novocaine. And yeah, I agree that 750 watts is probably all I need, so it looks like the Photon. I liked his, it felt pretty natural.

I might be inclined to get a Bafang M635, except for the fact that when I emailed them about six months ago asking if they had a torque sensing motor they said they had none and no plans to make one. I don't take kindly to bare-faced lies, and Bafang has likely lost a potential customer forever.

The frame's stripped down, getting it ready for paint. Powder coating's off the table for a few reasons, including that baking 6061 T6 at 400F will affect the heat treat. I can't find a shop willing to paint it so I found a supply shop that had rattle cans of aluminum-compatible epoxy primer, whatever base coat color I wanted and (ain't modern times cool!) two-part catalyzed clearcoat in a spray can. Hopefully it'll look okay without needing to do a bunch of wet sanding and buffing.

I've got new driveline parts coming: BB, shorter crankarms, chainrings, chain, freewheel. I'll get to the wheels eventually.

 

[Az.]

Google TSDZ8. It has torque sensor and is 4 times cheaper than Photon.

 

[Mongo]

I might be inclined to get a Bafang M635, except for the fact that when I emailed them about six months ago asking if they had a torque sensing motor they said they had none and no plans to make one. I don't take kindly to bare-faced lies, and Bafang has likely lost a potential customer forever.

Hi @chilehed - some more info has trickled out (this YouTube video, for example) about the Bafang's M635 motor future (or not). To paraphrase, e-bike D.I.Y. component demand has dropped, and Bafang appears to be focusing on OEM volume sales.

​

 

[docw009]

Seems to me, I'd want to keep the motor light. I would use the BBS02B. It's heavy enough at 10 pounds. Will need a little tuning of its power settings, but you can probably adjust the assist levels for a leg/motor combo that feels good. I've had one for 7 years and I would trust it to tour.

The TSDZ2B's are around 8 lbs, but they need extensive tuning with 3rd power firmware. Then the torque sensing is really nice, but TongShengs have a rep for wearing out. Meaning I wouldn't trust it to tour 500 miles. For my use, they're great. The DM01 and DM02 don't have a track record yet, but they appear to be nice T/S kits with higher power outputs. I dunno about the TSDZ8. SOunds like a higher power T/S motor, but the user community on Facebook seems to think it has incomsistent performance, not as good as a tuned TSDZ2 when it's off,

An important factor is what happens with a motor fail? You want a bike that can still be pedalled to the next waypoint. The BBS02B, TSDZ2B, and Q100H can all be ridden with a dead battery. As far as broken chains, ourers probably carry a spare?

 

[Az.]

user community on Facebook seems to think it has incomsistent performance,

TSDZ8 goes into power saving mode when battery voltage drops under certain level.

not as good as a tuned TSDZ2 when it's off,

Yes, of course it performs much better when it is on.