Chalo
100 TW
Good engineering is using one component to do two or three jobs, not using two systems to do one job.
38% of cars sold in China are now electric, Sinopec says the ICE is doomed
- Thread starter neptronix
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Hillhater
100 TW
well , down here in Oz, the Toyota Hilux truck is one of the top selling vehicles, and is also now available as a “Mild hybrid”.
Basicly this is just a 48v , 16kW, “Altermotor” system with a 1.4 kWh battery….much like many other 48v systems fitted by GM in the US, and European manufacturers to meet the latest emmissions targets.
In the Hylux (and likely the Tacoma) the system achieves a claimed 10% improvement in fuel use by enabling the use of engine Stop/Start function , and removing the main engine power drain of the ancillaries (AC, power Steering, etc)
The system does not operate in the same way other Toyota hybrids do..(ie the truck cannot be driven on electric power only), but the battery is primarily charged using regen braking.
Basicly this is just a 48v , 16kW, “Altermotor” system with a 1.4 kWh battery….much like many other 48v systems fitted by GM in the US, and European manufacturers to meet the latest emmissions targets.
In the Hylux (and likely the Tacoma) the system achieves a claimed 10% improvement in fuel use by enabling the use of engine Stop/Start function , and removing the main engine power drain of the ancillaries (AC, power Steering, etc)
The system does not operate in the same way other Toyota hybrids do..(ie the truck cannot be driven on electric power only), but the battery is primarily charged using regen braking.
Hillhater
100 TW
That may be one idealistic definition, but good engineering can also be defined as any solution that improves the efficiency, performance, simplifies the construction, or reduces costs , of a product.
EG, there is a very good reason why many heavy goods locomotives are diesel powered, but use electric traction motors..
1). It eliminates the need to electrify millions of miles of rail systems if only electric drive was used
2). It eliminated the hugely complex and expensive transmission and drive line that would be required to transfer the huge torque of a large diesel engined train to multiple traction axles. Electric motors on each axle is simpler and cheaper.
So, using 2 systems to do one job solves many problems and reduces costs.
Similar could be said for the use of Combined Cycle Gas Generation plants, where both chemical energy (gas turbine) is used in conjunction with thermal energy ( steam turbine ) , to do the same job .(.power generation), whilst improving efficiency and reducing costs.
Chalo
100 TW
Diesel-electric locos are using the electric part as CVT, nothing more. Gas peaker plants are used to close the gap between demand and efficient supply, nothing more.
Hillhater
100 TW
You are avoiding the point…they could just use a full electric drive, but huge infrastructure costs.
However diesel/ electric, ….two systems for one output =.clever engineering
There is different types of gas plants …CCGT’s employ 2 systems to improve efficiency = clever engineering. !
raylo32
100 kW
Nothing to do with EPA, the MPG is only like 1 better, and not sure folks are even seeing that in the real world. They did if for marketing and specifications bragging rights. And yes, they both hybrid and non-hybrid have the 10-speed transmission, which is fantastic. I have a non-hybrid version and it has tons of power... and decent economy for a big ICE vehicle. Basically gets the same MPG as my 2009 Tacoma that I sold when I got this. The hybrid's extra power is totally unnecessary, but I suppose if you had a maximum rated trailer that extra tq from the electric boost would be nice for getting it moving.
As a side story Toyota has recalled over 100,000 of these engines due to premature main bearing failures. They claim that manufacturing debris was left in the blocks and that stuff gets pushed into and caught in the #1 and I believe #3 main bearings on the initial startup. Then over time those bearings can fail catastrophically. Happens to many around 20,000 to 30,000 miles. Mine has 25,000 now. Toyota hired 400 extra folks to build new engines and they are currently shipping to dealers around the country. Mine is scheduled to be replaced in May.
Interestingly, the hybrid versions are not recalled because it is not deemed a safety issue since one with a failed ICE engine can theoretically move itself out of harm's way with the electric motor. Those engnes are still have the regular warranties but there are many unhappy hybrid owners out there. This has been a bit of a shit show for Toyota.
As a side story Toyota has recalled over 100,000 of these engines due to premature main bearing failures. They claim that manufacturing debris was left in the blocks and that stuff gets pushed into and caught in the #1 and I believe #3 main bearings on the initial startup. Then over time those bearings can fail catastrophically. Happens to many around 20,000 to 30,000 miles. Mine has 25,000 now. Toyota hired 400 extra folks to build new engines and they are currently shipping to dealers around the country. Mine is scheduled to be replaced in May.
Interestingly, the hybrid versions are not recalled because it is not deemed a safety issue since one with a failed ICE engine can theoretically move itself out of harm's way with the electric motor. Those engnes are still have the regular warranties but there are many unhappy hybrid owners out there. This has been a bit of a shit show for Toyota.
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Hillhater
100 TW
A little clarification on these Toyota hybrids.
the USA Tundra is a 3.5ltr V6 gasoline motor with an integrated 60+ hp electric assist ..
the US Tacoma is a 2.4ltr, 4 cyl gasoline motor with a similar integrated 60 hp electric assist.
the Australian Hilux / Prado is a 2.8 ltr, 4cyl, diesel motor with a 20 hp , 48v “altermotor” assist system.
Toyota do not refer to these 48v systems as “Hybrids” , since the vehicles cannot be driven on electric power alone, and their primary function is to improve fuel consumption.
www.chasingcars.com.au
the USA Tundra is a 3.5ltr V6 gasoline motor with an integrated 60+ hp electric assist ..
the US Tacoma is a 2.4ltr, 4 cyl gasoline motor with a similar integrated 60 hp electric assist.
the Australian Hilux / Prado is a 2.8 ltr, 4cyl, diesel motor with a 20 hp , 48v “altermotor” assist system.
Toyota do not refer to these 48v systems as “Hybrids” , since the vehicles cannot be driven on electric power alone, and their primary function is to improve fuel consumption.
Toyota’s new 48-volt mild hybrid diesel had three years of Australian testing
Toyota may have chosen to announce the addition of a 48-volt mild-hybrid diesel engine quietly by way of a nonchalant press release, but brand executives Mud, dirt, water-fording and 3500kg towing tests have all been part of the regimen for the incoming Hilux and Prado mild-hybrid engine
www.chasingcars.com.au
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raylo32
100 kW
Here is a photo of one of the new petrol 3.4L twin turbo replacement long block motors for US Tundra. Pretty complicated. Same engine goes into the non-hybrid i-Force and the i-Force Max hybrid.
classicalgas
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The BMW !3 is a series hybrid...its "range extender" ICE motor is only connected to the drive train electrically, through the generator and battery, there's no mechanical connectionAnd what does an BMW I3, an electric car, has to do with hybrids?
Your awareness of EV tech is less than you think.
classicalgas
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..."No, …for one they specifically referred to cars….not trucks."...
No they did not. Look again at your little green graphic. It's "vehicles", so the magazine quote you're nitpicking was accurate.
classicalgas
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..."and removing the main engine power drain of the ancillaries (AC, power Steering, etc)"...those loads are not "removed", they are shifted to electrical drive, but ultimately still drawing energy from the ICE engine. There may be slight gains in efficiency in doing that, but probably the most advantage comes from better packaging and lower maintenance (no belts)
Just looking that thing makes me disgusted. The Prius' motor is so much cleaner than that.
Nothing beats the electric motor though! ( iMiEV motor)
Maybe we add one more to Teslas 17+ fires?
Las Vegas police looking for links between Cybertruck blast and New Orleans attack
Authorities are investigating a Tesla Cybertruck explosion on Wednesday outside the Trump Las Vegas hotel in Nevada as a possible act of terror, law enforcement officials said.
We'll see what the investigation uncovers.
Hillhater
100 TW
As is yours apparently..!
The BMW i3 is a plug in EV, Not a hybrid of any variety !
…the “range extender” was a different model , the “i3 Rex” , and is no longer available .
certainly the energy was originally generated by the ICE, but would have been wasted as heat from the brakes.
…instead the kinetic energy is recovered by the regen system and then used to power the ancilliaies…effectively removing those loads from the main ICE. That , together with the use of an engine stop/start to reduce idling time, is claimed to result in 10% fuel reduction which helps Toyota meet the new carbon emission levels being introduced in 2025.
Also, the point obout less belt maintenance is not relavent as the 48v “altermotor” Is belt driven both to the main ICE , and the ancilliary components.
raylo32
100 kW
Oh, I still like ICE motors. Cams, rods, pistons... the interplay and timing of all the parts, now enhanced with modern electronic controls. Good stuff. I also like the electric motors, just in a different way. It is sort of like comparing a Rolex mechanical watch to a Casio digital. For the watch, I'd actually take the Casio, since the extra expense of the Rolex does not buy you better function. For vehicles right now, I'll take the ICE, simply because of the high initial cost and poor convenience/high cost of charging EVs on road trips. But hopefully the charging infrastructure will improve and some of the advanced battery concepts that promise to increase range, reduce costs, and charge faster actually come to fruition in the not too distant future. Once cost and convenience approach parity I will reevaluate.
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classicalgas
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Nothing you've said changes the fact that a BMW i3 with the range extender option is a series hybrid, what works just like "an ebike with a gasoline driven generator"
classicalgas
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Bwaaaahaaahahah! More of your bullshit. The ICE provided all the energy for the ancillaries, that load wasn't "removed". No pure ICE vehicle runs regen, there has to be an electric motor in the drive train to make it possible.
You can try to claim that the regen braking is powering the power steering if you want, but you look stupid trying. Especially since it was mostly the ICE that accelerated the car, giving the regen energy to work with.
All that bullshit, to gain 10% in MPG.
classicalgas
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Clearly blown up on purpose, it's not a "tesla fire", it's a "truck bomb"Maybe we add one more to Teslas 17+ fires?
Las Vegas police looking for links between Cybertruck blast and New Orleans attack
Authorities are investigating a Tesla Cybertruck explosion on Wednesday outside the Trump Las Vegas hotel in Nevada as a possible act of terror, law enforcement officials said.abc7.com
We'll see what the investigation uncovers.
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Hillhater
100 TW
..and nothing you’ve said changes the fact that the “BMW i3“ is a pure EV
If you are talking about the ranger extender model , at least use its correct model name..”BMW i3ReX”
Any EV with a generator in the trunk ( or on a trailer behind ) is a hybrid…acording to you.
What makes you think there isnt an electric motor. ”in the drivetrain” ?
you obviously do not know what a “mild hybrid” or “altermotor” actually is , or does !
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classicalgas
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So you agree, all the energy for the ancillaries comes from the ICE in a hybrid?
"
I jut said there was, in the statement you quoted, and then misread.
"The BMW i3 is an electric car that was manufactured by German marque BMW from 2013 to 2022. The i3 was BMW's first mass-produced zero emissions vehicle and was launched as part of BMW's electric vehicle BMW i sub-brand. It is a B-segment, high-roof hatchback with an electric powertrain. It uses rear-wheel drive via a single-speed transmission and an underfloor lithium-ion battery pack ...with an optional range-extending petrol engine.[15]
The rex was an option, not a separate model.
Back to the original topic.
Some recent developments.
BYD recently outproduced Tesla
China is looking to ban/control exports of certain minerals, completed batteries, and other things related to EVs to the USA.
China plans to curb exports of minerals and battery technology—key to your EVs and electronics
I wonder if this spurs us into better domestic production ( Tesla finally has competition ) or greatly delays electrification here.
Some recent developments.
BYD recently outproduced Tesla
China is looking to ban/control exports of certain minerals, completed batteries, and other things related to EVs to the USA.
China plans to curb exports of minerals and battery technology—key to your EVs and electronics
I wonder if this spurs us into better domestic production ( Tesla finally has competition ) or greatly delays electrification here.
Hillhater
100 TW
Errr ?, yes….i actually said that TO YOU way back in post#83,..when you were arguing that a hybrid is considered an EV !
“.you're calling a hybrid a gasoline vehicle, that's dumb. Most sources consider them EV's, *because they have batteries and electric motors* You can't reasonably call a hybrid a typical ICE vehicle, so you're comparing oranges to apples.”
….Where as now you seem to suggesting the opposite….that a hybrid is just an ICE with an electric drive ?
POST#83
BUT… as i also said, the hybrid RECOVERS the kinetic energy that would othewise be wasted as heat in the brakes, stores it, and reuses it to power the ancilliaries
Why are you so adverse to the differentiation of BEVs, HYBRIDs, and ICEs, as 3 very different technology groups ?
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Hillhater
100 TW
depends on who you chose to believe ….
BMW i3 model guide - Prestige & Performance Car
The BMW i3 was a modern pioneer, offering battery power without the weight penalty thanks to its composite construction
prestigeandperformancecar.com
Electric motor does the job of:
Gearbox
Clutch
Starter
Alternator
Advanced Fuel injection *
Electronic ignition *
Variable valve timing *
Variable length intake system (and exhaust if it were at all particle) *
* A fixed rpm engine can easily be tuned and way better optimized without fuel injection, electronic ignition and variable valve timing.
The intake and exhaust pipe lengths can be optimized and remain optimal for a fixed rpm.
It is only at a constant speed, with the fixed rpm ICE geared to drive the vehicle at that 'one' speed that a direct connection is more efficient.
NB that BYD's upcoming Series hybrids are said to do 2.9 l/100km (81mpg) using series hybrid most of the time and changing to a direct drive top gear when (occasionally) appropriate.
BYD also uses a few other Ecomodder tricks like a lithium battery for the 12 volt system, louvered grill, LED bulbs everywhere.
BYD's new plug-in hybrid car tech promises 2.9 litres per 100 km fuel efficiency - check details - CNBC TV18
According to BYD’s chairman Wang Chuanfu, the new plug-in hybrid technology can offer a driving range of up to 2,100 kilometres with a fully charged battery and a full gasoline tank.
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