Bafang G510/M620 (Bafang Ultra) thread

Fast and Furious said:

Depends on your controller options. Mine are European nomenclature. Bafang are Chinese to English nomenclature.
Your question's vague, lacks information. If I share "Mine" and you don't have an X1, how does that help you?
But certainly !!! Just as soon as you provide relevant information WTF you are talking about.

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The stock controller, did you send your motor away for X1 installation?

1boris said:

Imo its the best ebike motor available, people seem to have forgot about this motor and by all kind of new weak shit that overheat or breaks down easily.Stock program made my motor terrible,so usually programing is importent to get the right impression of this motor

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Absolutely. If 'best-of-best motor' feature's is on a builds short-list, you've arrived. So deal w/ the compromises - like spacing the (alloy) Chain-Ring out 5mm to save it not being eaten alive on normally used cogs like 11 and 13T.
I'm sure it exists, but I haven't found the hill my M620 will even stutter on. Nothing like my (rather paltry) previous experience.
You want control, and X1 flashed controller (and the cracked software files) has everything - clear up to 300NM Torque output.
Such setting vary with a User's tastes.

F'nF

shap08 said:

The stock controller, did you send your motor away for X1 installation

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No, I ordered a WattWagons with X1 installed.
If you pestered them, they might find you an Archon, and then, if you PM me I'll send you the Admin level software, but I'm not responsible for you doing wheelies into trees or for any consequences of your failed program application exuberance.
There is no 'installation' - except for an X1 flashed Stock Bafang controller.

F'nF

Fast and Furious said:

No, I ordered a WattWagons with X1 installed.
If you pestered them, they might find you an Archon, and then, if you PM me I'll send you the Admin level software, but I'm not responsible for you doing wheelies into trees or for any consequences of your failed program application exuberance.
There is no 'installation' - except for an X1 flashed Stock Bafang controller.

F'nF

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I found this Archon X1 controller-only upgrade for your Bafang Ultra

WattWagons currently (no pun, etc.) has a close to the X1 motor upgrade controller.
2300watts - nominal. Start there - or flail around until that offer disappears.
Using a Lap-top w/ two-stage (Eco and Sp) Display (DP 18?) that controller's easily programmed and set to personal preference.
I've published the 'cable' required and the software, but no I won't download screenshots of the files and publish my settings.
Not being rude, but suggest getting a butler and nursemaid for such service,

F'nF

shap08 said:

I found this Archon X1 controller-only upgrade for your Bafang Ultra

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VIRUS

Fast and Furious said:

WattWagons currently (no pun, etc.) has a close to the X1 motor upgrade controller.
2300watts - nominal. Start there - or flail around until that offer disappears.
Using a Lap-top w/ two-stage (Eco and Sp) Display (DP 18?) that controller's easily programmed and set to personal preference.
I've published the 'cable' required and the software, but no I won't download screenshots of the files and publish my settings.
Not being rude, but suggest getting a butler and nursemaid for such service,

F'nF

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Must require installation due to shipping the motor, it would cost $1k to ship to USA, $1K for the upgrade, $1k to ship it back. Not worth it.

I don't need to upgrade. Totally Cool w/ my set-up.
You have me confused w/ ur associate rubes that click on viral trash.

I think yours came with it already installed, Ill wait for High voltage upgrade kit.

shap08 said:

Must require installation due to shipping the motor, it would cost $1k to ship to USA, $1K for the upgrade, $1k to ship it back. Not worth it.

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Controller Installation is basically two small bolts and it weighs 4oz , MAX.
If the motor's off-frame, 10minutes work.
Not worth it, unless you understand what you're doing and do it yourself. Just a matter of taste, but why you're buying and shipping a 3kg Motor when all you need is a 0,25kg Controller seems quite irrational, to lil' American me.

F'nF

shap08 said:

I think yours came with it already installed, Ill wait for High voltage upgrade kit.

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Waiting can be productive, but insufferable patience is a curse.
If you don't already have the motor ....
There's your problem Homie.

F'nF

Fast and Furious said:

Controller Installation is basically two small bolts and it weighs 4oz , MAX.
If the motor's off-frame, 10minutes work.
Not worth it, unless you understand what you're doing and do it yourself. Just a matter of taste, but why you're buying and shipping a 3kg Motor when all you need is a 0,25kg Controller seems quite irrational, to lil' American me.

F'nF

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• Ship us the motor after purchasing the upgrade: Watt Wagons, 966 Watertown St., West Newton, MA, 02465

I've serviced the m620 twice now, don't get me wrong I like DIY. I have the UART version so I've played around with the software. The efficiency of the X1 is appealing, not the price tag.

Every point well taken for sure. You know. Do you have the new style 3rd gear and rotor?
Have you owned the elder style? Even if not I'd like your take.
WW might find you an X1 controller. I misspoke. They come w/ a motor side-plate.

WOW, that $799 price tag is a bit.

Fast and Furious said:

Every point well taken for sure. You know. Do you have the new style 3rd gear and rotor?
Have you owned the elder style? Even if not I'd like your take.
WW might find you an X1 controller. I misspoke. They come w/ a motor side-plate.

WOW, that $799 price tag is a bit.

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2019 model

I do about 5,000km a year, so this is approx. 25,000km motor. I ride in rain or shine.
I will replace my clutch next service. I have had no issues with my motor.

This is factory grease

Fast and Furious said:

WattWagons currently (no pun, etc.) has a close to the X1 motor upgrade controller.
2300watts - nominal. Start there - or flail around until that offer disappears.
Using a Lap-top w/ two-stage (Eco and Sp) Display (DP 18?) that controller's easily programmed and set to personal preference.
I've published the 'cable' required and the software, but no I won't download screenshots of the files and publish my settings.
Not being rude, but suggest getting a butler and nursemaid for such service,

F'nF

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To be clear that motor upgrade in my opinion cannot compare to the Innotrace X1. Wattwagons "upgraded" controller is just the stock controller with firmware to allow more amps. So all the other benefits the innotrace gave like increased efficiency, and different torque sensor programming are not going to come with it. Further more you can accomplish this with a shunt mod if you know how to use a soldering iron. I've even seen the 45A firmware for canbus floating around, meaning it could be as simple as a firmware flash for those with canbus.

Considering in early 2023 is when Innotrace started to fall apart and 2024 they declared bankruptcy so I doubt wattwagons will have any more to sell. And unfortunately it seems the HV kit isn't going to happen

Damn. My Archer D1x needs a charge. @ hours it'll be +80f. Oh well, I have some time and your summary shows you did some research or were effected by this fiasco.
Here's my thoughts.
Please entertain these questions. What if: The 'X1' is the same exact controller as all UART M620's and the only difference is the software and the Innotrace software contains executable zip-files (all available with various grades of verified log-in permissions) that'll flash any M620 controller?

No rush for me. I'll be looking this fall. Searching "compressed files", it's the largest file. I'm not into 'fine-tuning' my perfect tuning
Just a thought.
Krasnodar didn't make (ie: solder the chips on) these X1 controllers, he developed software and flashed them.


If you have a professional research him, you'll find Krasnodar's Bread & Butter field is programming chips for robotic packaging machines.
I owned a legal support service that specialized in finding out who and where 'people' were for PI's and Attorneys.
Not even using Lexis Nexus Accurint (though I do have a fiduciary interest and could), He was easy.
Krasnodar's Bread & Butter field is programming chips for robotic packaging machines
A degree from Czech Republic, but his name, 'Krasnodar' is a Region in Russia, bordering Crimea, a hotbed of Russian Separatists and Nationalists. Nowhere near Czechia.
So I checked a bit more and found his existence began 10 years ago and it appears he also now owns the world largest BMW, AUDI, Mercedes 'Computer' recycling Junkyards (one in Germany), buying (unregulated because they're considered 'recycled') EU made automotive computers - containing chips BANNED from export to Russia because they contain weapons grade guidance capabilities.
Before he just went 'poof' there was a 12 month hiatus of users being able to sign in and use the program and never one updates was issued to subscribers - who'd paid thousands for the service.
He too busy with 4 other (export sensitive chip related) jobs and running two (export sensitive chip related) junkyards.
He appeared unkempt, sullen and a 'hard-drinking 55 with a 5-day-shadow' in company-bio photos.
Hey, it could all be just happenstance, grannie passed or something - or maybe he's in German dungeon.

Innotrace was a subsidiary of Black Forest bikes. They got all the money and divvied it with Krasnodar, the co-owner. I verified he was living nicely, comfortable. His residences being on Google Earth. LOL. To coin a phrase: Crooks today!

Users had to go through BF b's server to log in - at the user-level BF allowed, screening who got to use what level of the software, by restricting permissions. From there the constant complaint was it took so long while the screen said 'executing'.
No shit. It was installing firmware created by a Russian circumventing the rules. Who knows where the server was (Moscow?) or what else was downloaded by special agent in place, Krasnodar the Junkyard King.
Mass confusion arose in'22 when BF shipped pre-flashed controllers. For those people log-in took 30 seconds - after checking for updates, which took an hour or four.
Was it was credential verification - bouncing around the world and ending up at KGB headquarters? I use Western EU sites and none of that wait time.
Where BF blew it was the Chicken having fled the coop w/ the client list hard-drive, they shipped flashed units to distributor levels, but that flash contains all the files for every level of permissions and if you can bypass the permissions page. lol

Krasnodar (the creator) took off back to Russia, with all the log-in keys. He frocked everyone, shut down all permissions regardless those who'd paid a ton of money (he'd spent) for access to the program (at various levels - 1000; 2300; 3000watts) leaving owners of $10,000 bikes stuck with no settings - or if you previously had access, with the changes you had made and nothing more.
Angry, EU hackers found a hack bypassing log in and shared it on EBR - what I'm using with full admin privileges, so I can set for up to 3000watts. God Level.
EBR banned owners for publishing and sharing that software - since Black Forest Bikes (Innotrace was suing Krasnodar for rights. Except BF bikes had by then negligently failed to provide the updates (for which we all had paid substantial sums), or the right to even tune our bikes - for over a year WELL BEFORE Krasnodar pulled his shit. And they refused to refund our money.
Hey, non-performance voids a contract. You sell me a car and keep the keys, I have rights to repair and or sell it and my position's I purchased software but was being deprived of it's use while BF bikes got the cash.
I never signed in because they prevented it - and two years later still do. I never agreed at any level not to publish my property, or that anyone had overriding rights precluding me doing as I please and my controller came directly from BF bikes/ Innotrace.
Now, the files and the log-in crack are public domain.
WW has them. I have them. A lot of Ultra owners do, while EBR banned the victims, depriving those who came forward (mad as hell) from obtaining relief.
I think the EU hot-dogs actually improved on the code - which itself uses segments of published, opensource M620 code.
These 150kilo EU off-road guys are some serious Beasts. You want Godzilla grade M620 programing, learn German and check their sites and Hey, no reports yet of G510's burning 3000watts melting down. Wires yes. The motor can hang. It's nicely overbuilt, but the 3000watt Max controllers are the limiting factor.
There's the story.

F'nF

Bengy22 said:

To be clear that motor upgrade in my opinion cannot compare to the Innotrace X1. Wattwagons "upgraded" controller is just the stock controller with firmware to allow more amps. So all the other benefits the innotrace gave like increased efficiency, and different torque sensor programming are not going to come with it. Further more you can accomplish this with a shunt mod if you know how to use a soldering iron. I've even seen the 45A firmware for canbus floating around, meaning it could be as simple as a firmware flash for those with canbus.

Considering in early 2023 is when Innotrace started to fall apart and 2024 they declared bankruptcy so I doubt wattwagons will have any more to sell. And unfortunately it seems the HV kit isn't going to happen

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BTW. WW gets returns and X1's are on certain bikes. You put some cash down, they'll certainly find one if one becomes available.

I didn't realize WW was still in business.

Bengy22 said:

To be clear that motor upgrade in my opinion cannot compare to the Innotrace X1. Wattwagons "upgraded" controller is just the stock controller with firmware to allow more amps. So all the other benefits the innotrace gave like increased efficiency, and different torque sensor programming are not going to come with it. Further more you can accomplish this with a shunt mod if you know how to use a soldering iron. I've even seen the 45A firmware for canbus floating around, meaning it could be as simple as a firmware flash for those with canbus.

Considering in early 2023 is when Innotrace started to fall apart and 2024 they declared bankruptcy so I doubt wattwagons will have any more to sell. And unfortunately it seems the HV kit isn't going to happen

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I'm heard talk about a HV kit, but no details and assumed this refers to 72v. Not sure how useful that would be.
At 52v the X1 peaking at 3000watts (SP 5) is unusable for me - hell, SP 3 is. At 3000watts the motor produces close to 300nm and it comes on like an ejection seat in a fighter jet - BAM. The stress destroys ($125) alloy chainrings real quick at that level, will snap a chain and shred the big alloy cog on an M8000 Cassette.
Looking on Aliexpress the M620 52V 1000W UART controller (w/o side plate) is about $100.
My bike budget's used up this month, but perhaps in time for my teardown (Oct/ Nov) to lube I'll see if it respond to the X1 software and updates the firmware - pending I can locate the file. I can compare for any obvious physical differences w/ the installed X1 - like larger capacitors or enhanced gauge wiring to accommodate higher current.
I know the 'Calibration' program is on the X1 Software - but as I remember (a year since I was looking at my laptop, software up and interfaced w/ the Ultra) it was named 'synchronize' or some such.
When I do the lube my options will be open if I don't like the wear and opt install a new stator and improved 3rd gear, having to calibrate.
When this shitstorm hit on EBR, I asked myself 'why do all these EU guys want a log-in key if they don't own an X1 controller ???
Once the bypass was provided they all disappeared. Black Forest bikes was saying many 'server queries' did not match their records of controllers they'd sold to clients. They even disavowed all WW's X1's - while some of those controllers had already been verified by BF bikes, logged-in and tuned. WTF?
The easy way is to provide the entire file and control the various level permissions for users. A problem in Zanzibar? With Team Viewer access the shop can remotely re-flash the entire software - while on vacation an Antigua. That means the file is on the software. Too smart by half, now anyone that saved that folder, had everything - if they cracked the permissions.
It does seem the X1 is a program, not a controller and absolutely worth $100 to find out - all the more since reports regarding the motor's lifespan are good.
-
Bafang's M620's market focus is World Class - ie: Asia, the EU North America.
In Asia it's used as a truck motor, carting a ton around town - day in, day out. That implies reliability without erratic failures and robust, low-down torque.
In EU, it's only for off-road, but owns the market for the apex of performance/ weight ratio.
In North America it's a Class III (USA) - not certain in Canada, but 'street legal' w/o insurance, etc.
A close look at the (new) Bafang IGH systems paired specifically for this motor indicates cargo 'delivery service duty ' is the focus, not performance riders. I'm sure it's cool for a Pedicab.
See here: GEARSHIFT METHOD. AUTO - GEARS. 5 - WEIGHT (KG)3.7
I'm sure a 8SP , say 11 x 36 would work well for me and a bike built around the M620 will weighs 61 - 85lbs.
Using throttle for takeoffs is very harsh on the drivetrain.
A note on that.
I have the only (titanium framed) WW Cross Tour w/ factory installed Domino 0-5 ohm twist throttle.
What can I say? They humored me.
I tried everything. Resistors and cross-overs, still have all the files. Same results: BANG - throttles on.
Oh, it works nice once in motion. In SP Modes it's unfettered like a Suron, but ramp-up sucks.
Even in ECO 2, using throttle doing a u-turn the bike'll do a 10" wheelie - circling, while up on the rear wheel.
It's one hell of a rush - who doesn't like that? Bystanders love it !!!
Well hell yes. You do a 15' u-turning wheelie looking super-cool wiggling the bars back and forth - but that's a terrified reaction to realizing the fronts not steering.
I find pedaling w/ the TS is the way to go, so I switched to a thumb throttle - rarely used, but good to have when needed.
The (52v) M620 responds perfectly w/ this throttle. Ramp-up is better than I could obtain w/ the Domino and it freed up space on my bars w/ no more UGLY hump compromises.
I've two Dominos (soon to be up for sale). One's modded w/ soldered on Julet plug - oh, and a third - for parts only- a bit disintegrated.

A rider strong enough for an 11 x 34-36T cassette - or adept at tapping into ECO L2 can use an 8SP. Perfect to take full advantage of the big power with blistering acceleration.

From 0 - 20mph, my 100nm/ 1000w MXUS hub-drive w/ a cheap Altera 8SP will smoke 62lb 'Gumbo de Bodacious even with GdB's D1x wireless, electronic shifting and twice the torque.
A big benefit using a 8Sp is you can run a STEEL chain-ring and unify wear, evenly over the entire drivetrain.
Using 11-12SP alloy rings is a failure point - and nobody I can find even makes a 50 - 52T 11SP steel ring - my correct combo for ultra's power.
The (prerequisites) correct spacers and proper length ring-bolts pointing the chain-line on the second to smallest cog will balance drivetrain wear and 8-9SP parts are dirt cheap.
I stick w/ Archer D1x wireless because I can program shifting to any amount of gears - as precisely spaced as I desire.
Take an M8000 11 x 42T, 11sp cassette. Remove the big cog set, install spacers. Viola! An 8SP 11 x 34T narrow set.
Work great, but no steel chain-ring of worthy size is made in the, '8000' narrow chains - so forget it.
3000watts ??? Expect to replace drivetrain at <300 mile intervals - if you shift precisely.
I suggest talking to BarnBoy on EBR about (Kindernay XIV) IGH longevity. He rides a X1'd Watt Wagons FS Hydra, and his savvy, intelligence and self-determination provide a lot of valuable answers.
Given the chain slack created by full suspension's oscillation, correct shift-tuning at those extremes takes serious talent.

M620's a tricky beast and most of my learning comes from from wrecking stuff.
I hope my commentary helps somebody, and someone with more knowledge clues me in to better understandings.

My thanks to the community.

F'nF

shap08 said:

I think yours came with it already installed, Ill wait for High voltage upgrade kit.

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Thanks Bro. I learned from you. Here's the two-bolt controllers.100 bucks.
You have a laptop? I have an extra (modified) interface cord. It plugs in any (like a DPC 18) Display's USB port.
On LT: Save software and log-in bypass file.
Open software file and log-in w/ bypass file. Entire Innotrace programming file access opens.
Happy to share my property if anyone wants, but that's on the recipient to designate a method where forums don't over react and ban me for file-sharing. I saw a fuckin' purge on EBR over this very information; a robust forum turned to silence by their 'Moo'-derators.
Pretty Chicken Guano move, and why (The original) Fast n' Furious dumped them.
I'm here (1st) to learn and (2nd) to share.
Just give PM me an address.

PW

Deacon Blues said:

I didn't realize WW was still in business.

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Et tu Deacon? But I feel ya Northern Bro.
They certainly don't reply to queries much. Impale WW if you will, but (as you know) they literally (lol) resurrected the dead for me.
Your WW UC is a 2022 bicycle version of a '66 289 Shelby Cobra - reincarnated in titanium.
We may be cut-loose from the factory to tend these Beasts, but I can think of worse fates .

Deacon Blues said:

I didn't realize WW was still in business.

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Yes, they're in business. I see they discontinued the CF Hydras and are using Alloy frames on the Gen II.

Motor: Bafang Ultra boosted to 2300W peak (same as the X1 controller)
Battery: 1050 Wh (52V, 20Ah, 21700 Samsung 50E cells), 60A peak BMS, Fast charging capable
Range: 50-75 miles per charge
Torque: 120-230Nm (same as the X1 controller, but no 3000watt option)
Charger: 4A
Display: Bafang DPC 18 or X2 mini display

mcfizzlestag said:

Not sure about any UART full bikes, but i was able to get a current m620 UART motor kit from greenbikekit's website. Included the new rotor design, 1000W, and i was able to use one of my already owned eggriders with it to program most settings. Only issue i've been having is a power save mode thats forced on you at ~30% battery voltage. The reseller told me nothing can be done about it, but im sure theres a firmware out there that turns this off. I was hitting this wall that limited me to 350W suddenly on my rides up the mountain and wondering why no one has complained more about it, especially people with large packs. I was losing access to 6AH of battery because of this. I figured it must not be this bad for most people, and there must be a variable its based off. So a few days of testing and horrible rides up the mountain:

Power Save mode is 43% of your programmed current limit.
Default is 30A, so you will get maximum 13A when you hit it. Unfortunately, i had mine set to 18A and so it was rough endings to my commutes, being limited to 7.7A while on 11% grade. I haven't finished testing, i still need to find out if theres different tiers of power save as the battery drains further, and if Offroad mode uses a different threshold. You cant go higher than 13A unfortunately due to firmware restrictions on the current limit.

So if you want to still limit your current, i will recommend leaving the Limited Current: 30 Amps. Instead change your Assist levels to compensate. Ive set my Assist 9: Limited Current 60% which equals 18 Amps

Noise wise, itsmuch quieter than a cyc stealth. My bbshd had a chain guard to correct the chain line when climbing, its quieter than that, but not quieter than a bbshd with a good chainline. Only time its get a bit louder is when you are maxing out the motors RPMs by being in too low of a gear

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mcfizzlestag said:

echarging at (approx) 20% is a good idea.

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mcfizzlestag said:

Not sure about any UART full bikes, but i was able to get a current m620 UART motor kit from greenbikekit's website. Included the new rotor design, 1000W, and i was able to use one of my already owned eggriders with it to program most settings. Only issue i've been having is a power save mode thats forced on you at ~30% battery voltage. The reseller told me nothing can be done about it, but im sure theres a firmware out there that turns this off. I was hitting this wall that limited me to 350W suddenly on my rides up the mountain and wondering why no one has complained more about it, especially people with large packs. I was losing access to 6AH of battery because of this. I figured it must not be this bad for most people, and there must be a variable its based off. So a few days of testing and horrible rides up the mountain:

Power Save mode is 43% of your programmed current limit.
Default is 30A, so you will get maximum 13A when you hit it. Unfortunately, i had mine set to 18A and so it was rough endings to my commutes, being limited to 7.7A while on 11% grade. I haven't finished testing, i still need to find out if theres different tiers of power save as the battery drains further, and if Offroad mode uses a different threshold. You cant go higher than 13A unfortunately due to firmware restrictions on the current limit.

So if you want to still limit your current, i will recommend leaving the Limited Current: 30 Amps. Instead change your Assist levels to compensate. Ive set my Assist 9: Limited Current 60% which equals 18 Amps

Noise wise, itsmuch quieter than a cyc stealth. My bbshd had a chain guard to correct the chain line when climbing, its quieter than that, but not quieter than a bbshd with a good chainline. Only time its get a bit louder is when you are maxing out the motors RPMs by being in too low of a gear.

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No, no, no. It's not you, and in fact you have an excellent battery management program.
Recharging at 20% is a safe 'V' that won't brick the battery - and yes it happens. You run to, say 15% and one cell (common) is very slightly lower 'V' than the other 55 cells, but the effects are magnified by depleted batteries and if forces the BMS to constantly (off/ on. off/on. off/on) try and balance, Which expends current, causing more 'V' degradation.
If you put the bike away w/o recharging), it will bring 'V' down to a point below the BMS allows - which bricks you battery as a DANGEROUS fire hazard - determines it's 'V' is UNSAFE.
Other side of the coin is charging to 80-85%. From 20 - 85% provides superior life-span and performance.
The key is dumping % and using Voltage Readings.



Here's some 48 and 53V charts to get a full sense of it.
I'd be cool with such programming as you describe. Forces me to be idiot-proof, and that's really hard.
This does not mean your batteries will last. It only means they'll get the best chance to.
-
A brutal skeptic, I doubted the '80 x 20% charge' concept and researched the seminal sources. All were using 18650's and produced results in various degrees from 30% - 40% longer total mileage lifespan of the cells.

Fn'F

Has anyone ran 60v in the stock motor & controller ?