19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tires)

[Ch00paKabrA]

As Promised!

I received the IRC GP1 19 X 2.75 Tire from Dennis Kirk today. For those paying attention, the issue with this tire was that certain nay-sayers who will remain nameless refused to believed that the weight of the tire was only 5.43 lbs for the 19 inch and just over 6 lbs for the 21 inch. There was talk about how these sites just incorrectly cut and paste... blah blah blah (just kidding :lol: )

[I don't know how much the Shinko 244 weighs but since it is a 4 ply tire it is probably between 8 and 10 lbs. It would be good to know so if someone has a Shinko 244, please weigh it for us.

I also use electra fatty-o 24 x 3.00 bicycle tires on another build so I compared the two tires. I was worried that the IRC would have a flimsy sidewall like the bicycle tire but it does not. It is firm and keeps its shape while uninflated. The IRC GP1 19 x 2.75 and the fatty-o 24 x 3.00 appear to have the same outside diameter so they are just a little smaller than your average 26 in. bicycle tire. The fatty-o is 1.2 kg.

I haven't mounted it yet as I don't have my motor yet but hopefully it will be here sometime this week. I like it and I ordered another one for the front.

I hope this helps those who were curious.

Before I sent Jay the 2.75x19 SR241 and SR244, I weighed them. The 244 was just over 7# while the 241 was 6.5#. The SR241 was almost 1 pound lighter I rememered. Keep in mind that I weighed them on the bathroom scale, So I know I'm close but it may not be exact.

That is good to know. Since the difference in weight is only 2 lbs, it may not be worth the extra $10 to go with the IRC tires. Perhaps a Shinko on the back and an IRC on the front instead of a bicycle tire.

 

[Rix]

I don't think you can go wrong with the IRC. I tried an IRC trials tire on my bike a while back, it wasn't as good as the shinko was offroad, in the loose stuff, but they were even every where else. Both were 17x2.75 tires. Infact I still have them, I will weigh them tonight and see what the difference is on those two as well.

Rick

 

[pucksterpete]

Here is what a 17x1.4 and 19x1.4 rim looks like with the 24MTB and a 3.00 x 24 Duro Razorback (25.5" OD) on the front. The 17 is mounted with the 2.75SR241 (23.3" OD) and the 19 running the Bridgestone M23 (24.9" OD). Keep in that your 26MTB with crazy Bobs on the front are probably about 1 inch bigger diameter than the Razor back.

Rick

Minus the pics from your post Rix, why not run the same size rim & tire on both the front & back, advantages/disadvantages?

Pete

 

[Rix]

Minus the pics from your post Rix, why not run the same size rim & tire on both the front & back, advantages/disadvantages?

Great question Pete. I have been searching for the happy medium to maximizing mechanical advantages of a slightly smaller rear wheel, and looking aesthetically pleasing with a 24MTB on the front for a long time now. The 19x1.4 running any tire that is 3" and narrower looks great and takes keen eye to spot whats going on at any distance while the bike is in motion. And it looks good even with a 26MTB which is you can see by Offroader's build. The 18 I have tried so far is the same, but, you can tell its just slightly smaller than the 24MTB. The 17 is blatantly obvious. Even though it does look pretty decent with a 24MTB front, its not as aesthetically pleasing in looks as an 18 or 19. So why not just stick with a 19x1.4? I am always looking for a mechanical advantage with direct drive hub motors. I am a heavy guy, and I do lots of hill climbing or some soft sand road riding. I need the mechanical advantage. Obviously a 16MC with a small tire would provide the best leverage, but running that with anything but a 20"Bmx front wheel doesn't look aesthetically pleasing at all to me. But you cant be the performance. Recently I had Volt Riders lace a 19x1.4 PW Racing rim to a MTB hub. That is what is what is currently on the front of the Bomber. Running a MC tire with the SR241 on the front is pure Nirvana for steep gnarly Offroad descents, and because that tire sticks so well, I can hit loose corner much hotter as well. Even though offroad performance is vastly improved, the weight penalty is not worth it. In the future, I will more than likely stick with Downhill wheels/rims/tires up front and the MC setup on the rear. This is the best combo for offroad durability and keeping the bike from gaining unnecessary weight. Obviously this isn't everyone's cup of tea. For the Ebikers out there that want to run the same size and types of tires front and rear, this isn't going to work for them.

Rick

 

[2007blueprius]

well I got my spokes today, those nipples are huge,

for some reason my order got mixed up in the paperwork called them this Tuesday and just got deliver so considering that was pretty fast, I am a bit bummed up that they don't come with the washers, thought those were some specially struck washers with that curved profile, most of my reasoning for choosing Holmes was for it has been done and tested, and it worked for many, guess I have to check the hardware store, not that big of a deal, just food for thought I would have paid a couple extra bucks for the complete set, it'd be nice to start build as soon as delivered, not worry weather the washers I got were thick enough or they may slip out of place or were too flat etc

the other bummer I have been procrastinating and the tire I wanted is now on backorder at DK, son of a ...............

oh well it will give me a minute to build it and tinker with the suspension etc.

So this is what I came up with





View attachment 3




George

 

[GCinDC]

I am a bit bummed up that they don't come with the washers

you must have missed this post on page 10?

I am still a bit unclear on the Holmes setup, a few threads back it mentioned those are special nipples? as in no washers needed? or did I misunderstand?

JRH has custom nipples that fit MOPED wheels w/o washers. but to fit MOTORCYCLE wheels, you'll need washers. unfortunately, i've heard from JRH that he no longer sells the washers, but will make them when nec for wheels they build.

nice handiwork tho. let us know how they work..

 

[Rix]

I am a bit bummed up that they don't come with the washers

you must have missed this post on page 10?

I am still a bit unclear on the Holmes setup, a few threads back it mentioned those are special nipples? as in no washers needed? or did I misunderstand?

JRH has custom nipples that fit MOPED wheels w/o washers. but to fit MOTORCYCLE wheels, you'll need washers. unfortunately, i've heard from JRH that he no longer sells the washers, but will make them when nec for wheels they build.

nice handiwork tho. let us know how they work..

+1, that's one way to get your custom washers dished. I like it.

Rick

 

[Obiwan007]

What a great idea for dishing washers. JRH made mine and said that he produced a special die for stamping them out. Your method looks like the best DIY method I have seen. Those washers look a bit thicker than the ones I got from Holmes but I guess it does not matter as long as the nipples don't protrude. Obiwan

 

[2007blueprius]

well not too brag but I am pretty good making things happen, I started looking for a ballbearing and a small socket, but couldn't find one when I came across my flaring tools.

If I had to do it again, same hub same rim I'd order 154mm, I got 156mm and its right where I measured them to be , that is great but they are only snug I have yet to true it and only got a couple mm left to work with, not good.

better yet I should have ordered the cheap Chinese stuff for an experiment, these spokes are too nice to waist, I wonder if they can be cut down a bit I know the threads are rolled, I am almost tempted to use a die to thread them a couple mm further down so I can cut them, not sure if any local shops have a machine, last I checked they barely knew what prices they were asking on the bikes, we'll see if I can true it as is.

as for the washers it worked out great, and the measurements are very close to what GC posted.



now I have never been a fan of black on silver but fudge this looks good.



not only that I took some weights, my bathroom scale is funky but rough idea, stock noname ebay hubwheel/tire about 18 lbs, motor only about 13, rim 3.5, whole wheel with MC rim about 18, so the real penalty will be whatever the tire/tube/rimstrip

further I have started a thread about this build, I threw the kit as it came on a cheap steel 26 frame, well I got it on CL but the bike was not cheap goes for about $300, with a hub the thing is down right dangerous, had the battery on the trunk rack it came with, too top heavy, impossible to ride with one hand, guess I got used to my 29er, it literally felt like a clown bike on steroids, fun for a couple testrides, but these hubs belong in such a wheel and a bigger frame, I am only 5'8", but that frame was more for a 5' . I could not believe the retail on that bike what a pos, heavy as hell, the fork is a joke and its a 1" or something my other forks are too big, the rear suspension might as well be a hardtail.

I have a cheap wallmart steel hardtail I bought for this project, my nicer bikes are aluminum and I don't want to cut them up, nor does my welder do aluminum, we'll see what it turns into, maybe I'll make one out of two

 

[Rix]

I like your wheel build Bluehomey. as far as truing goes, you got just too options, first remove the spokes, bump grind the 2mm off the spoke head, and relace, or just true, and trim the excess of with a Dremmel. Either route you go, it will work.

Rick

 

[2007blueprius]

I'm almost there, it did not take much at this point, surprisingly easy to true these rims, it was pretty decent just snug, just a few tweaks and its within a mm, I'll mess with it some more but I figure I'd call it the night let them stretch a bit.





a 19 would be silly in that frame I think



I almost bought one last year, but this works for me I used to do it with a piece of chalk when I was a kid, I mentioned it before I usually do it by the finger torque-o-wrench, and I get them pretty good this way.



as for the spokes, they are just about perfect, it did not take many turns beyond snug, none are any close to poking through, but that was not my concern, these are different, I got a couple extra ones, and the nipple does not get beyond the spoke, gets stuck, unlike bicycle spokes

 

[Rix]

Nicely done Blue, just throwing this out there. What ever tire you are going to run, look at getting a knobby cutter. You may to need to trim the sides as much as possible for clearance on the stays.

Rick

 

[2007blueprius]

I actually have a tire grooving machine, I thought about it, the wheel is done, about as true as it will get, the more I mess with it the more I screw it up, so I'm done, now what to do about a bike?

its a nice sunny day, I think I am about to pull out all my stuff take some pics and post them here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58336 see if you all can get me some input.

 

[GiantEV]

Took my 4080 and 19" rim to a local motorcycle shop in town. The guy there showed me some spokes that looked like they would work and I went ahead and had them build the wheel for me. I just got it back today and decided to take some pictures for you folks. The spokes are 9/10 gauge and came out to about 5 1/4" long. I told him 132mm but he says they were too long when he cut them that length so he had to cut them shorter. The wheel spins true and looks great. It feels very solid. I ended up installing my CST 2.0x19" tire and Kenda tube as well. I'm pretty good at installing bike tires, and I've got to say that this tire was a lot more difficult to install than any bike tire I've installed, even harder than my 20" Shinkos! The tires are very thick and felt like I was going to break my Pedro plastic tire levers, but they held out and didn't break. As you can see in the last picture, the tube is just a hair over 2". This will work on the bike I have now and when I get a wider frame I'll swap it out for a Shinko. After I mounted the tire I realized that I should have weighed the tire. I've changed out enough bike tires in my day to say that these tires are in the same weight category as your typical 26" knobby tire. I'll let you guys know how it rides when I get the motor installed.

 

[2007blueprius]

looks good, that was the 3 lbs supposedly tire? aren't mtb tires available in 2 + inches? just wondering how is it working for you, if it is not much different than a bike tire, is it supposed to wear better?

 

[Rix]

Damn Giant EV, that came out good. That is one small 19" MC tire. What ever you do, don't run that tire below maximum rated PSI. Not concerned much for tire wear as rim protection if you decide to jump a curb. BTW, what is the inflated diameter of that setup?

Rick

 

[GiantEV]

looks good, that was the 3 lbs supposedly tire? aren't mtb tires available in 2 + inches? just wondering how is it working for you, if it is not much different than a bike tire, is it supposed to wear better?

Thanks 2007blueprius. Yes, there are MTB tires that are a lot wider. The reason I'm giving these a try is because my frame isn't very wide, but I'm planning on upgrading by the end of this calendar year, so I thought I could use this motor and rim and use this small tire in the meantime until I get my new frame. I'd say 3 lbs is accurate for the weight, just based on feel.

Damn Giant EV, that came out good. That is one small 19" MC tire. What ever you do, don't run that tire below maximum rated PSI. Not concerned much for tire wear as rim protection if you decide to jump a curb. BTW, what is the inflated diameter of that setup?

Rick

Thanks, Rick, I'm pleased with the build as well. Yes, it's very small, smaller than I imagined after seeing you guys with your huge Shinkos. The inflated diameter is about 23.2" at 35psi (that's the max psi). I plan on taking it easy with this small tire, especially with my hardtail I'm putting it on and the weight of the heavy 4080 motor. I'd like to find a 4ply DOT rated tire that's around 2.5" wide, but this tire should work for now. I should note that although the tire looks new, the manufacturer's paper label that came on the tire looks aged, as if stored in a warehouse for a while. I thought I read somewhere that some of these tires were older before purchasing them, so I was prepared for it, but I thought I'd mention it in case others are interested in trying this tire. I'm eager to see how well these tires handle and how well they wear over time.

 

[2007blueprius]

if nothing else I would say the thread pattern is more suited for road use than any knobby mtb tire, should hold up a bit better to sustained speeds too, those are a couple advantages I saw, getting it ready for later upgrades is another too,

 

[Rix]

Thanks, Rick, I'm pleased with the build as well. Yes, it's very small, smaller than I imagined after seeing you guys with your huge Shinkos. The inflated diameter is about 23.2" at 35psi (that's the max psi). I plan on taking it easy with this small tire, especially with my hardtail I'm putting it on and the weight of the heavy 4080 motor. I'd like to find a 4ply DOT rated tire that's around 2.5" wide, but this tire should work for now.

Vee Rubber makes an interesting tire. Its the VRM308 2.50-19 trials tires. It would be probably be a just a tad by on the light duty side for me, but compared to a bicycle tire, it would be a much better option. When the time comes for you change tires, this could be an option to look into.

Rick

 

[GiantEV]

Yes, that Vee Rubber looks like it could work for me, or others who need a narrower tire.

 

[Dark Knight]

Interesting thread. Quick opinion - how hard is it to build your own wheel...? Worth the risk if go with an 19 inch MC wheel on a bike with 50mph+ potential? Had always thought I'd get someone to build it but being in Perth, Oz...volt riders is probably out of the question....and don't know if anyone locally will have the requisite experience...

 

[2007blueprius]

I'm no wheel builder by any means, I've always been a grease monkey thou, and I often take on projects without too much consideration as to how hard will it be, bottom line if I want it I get it done, so from my perspective the question is to you? how bad do you want it?

I have trued several bike wheels over the years, and build a couple, changed rims and hubs, so this project I did not gve too much thought, if you never done this before some homework would be on your first order of bussiness, look up Sheldon Brown, some good articles in there, werry well written up and some good tips as to what sequance the spokes should go in for an easy install, I read those articles a fewe years back, thou when pacing this one I done it a bit different.

the difference for me when working with a larger hub shorter thicker spokes, and smaller rim, they are not as maleable, so getting them in place can be a little tricky, again its just a matter of determination, patience, hte latter I am a bit short on.

once that is done you got to true it, again some good articles there, to get you started, I have my own low teck by feel method, this wheel was a lot easier to bring close to tru than any bike rim I've done, but it got complicated towards the end, the last bits of adjustment, and since I have some time till my tire gets here I left it alone, I got it within 1 mm really quick, with bike tire I am usually really picky and get them dam near perfect, not sure I can acvomplish this here, I noticed because as short the spokes are and with the 1 cross pattern, they have a signifficant bend arround each other, so I am now waiting for them to strech a bit and find theyr place, before I tinker some more, because thou all were tight some had more of a bend than others, and when trying to get that last mm out, it plays trick with meas the ones with more bend have some streching left to do.

last, if you are going for 50 mph youd be silly not to do it, much better wheel in the end and with a thicker tire at that speed potholes are a bit safer to hit,

 

[Rix]

Interesting thread. Quick opinion - how hard is it to build your own wheel...? Worth the risk if go with an 19 inch MC wheel on a bike with 50mph+ potential? Had always thought I'd get someone to build it but being in Perth, Oz...volt riders is probably out of the question....and don't know if anyone locally will have the requisite experience...

To answer your question about truing, in addition to what 07 Prius said, I would add that its not hard to lace and build a good wheel, but its really easy to build a crappy wheel :? I can't lace 2 or 3 X, but I can lace radial and 1X all day long. Here is pic of the 3rd wheel I laced to a 5405 hub motor on my Bomber. I used two bolts with duct tape on the ends so my rim would get scratched when spinning and truing against the markers (bolts). I am assuming you know how to true a wheel? if the rim pulls to one side, tighten the other side spoke or spoke group, if the rims is elongated and an not perfectly around, loosen the spoke groups on the short side and tighten the spoke groups on the elongated side. After the rim is round and true, tighten all of the spokes in 1/4 turns going spoke to spoke radially around the wheel until tension is really tight. Now some of the spokes will be tighter than others. You can carefully snug the less tightened spokes up in 1/4 turns only, but only until the rim starts moving out of true again. Then stop. The spoke tensions on all of the spokes will not be exactly the same but very close. Then as you ride around, and the spokes stretch and loosen you will repeat this process 2-3 times. Eventually, all of the spokes will take a set and that's it, you wont have to touch them again. Then you will only be checking for loose spokes periodically such as when you change a tire that is worn out. There is an exception to this rule. As you may have read, some folks have problems with the wheels maintaining true and the spokes never seem to take a set. This happens under only two conditions. Either the spokes were too small to begin with for the wheel, rim to tire, to power in put, or the rim was never trued properly to begin with, such as spoke tension being too loose which causes vertical stretch loads on them from power input. That's the gist of it, but if you don't understand, I can clarify more.

 

[GiantEV]

Eventually, all of the spokes will take a set and that's it, you wont have to touch them again. Then you will only be checking for loose spokes periodically such as when you change a tire that is worn out. There is an exception to this rule. As you may have read, some folks have problems with the wheels maintaining true and the spokes never seem to take a set. This happens under only two conditions. Either the spokes were too small to begin with for the wheel, rim to tire, to power in put, or the rim was never trued properly to begin with, such as spoke tension being too loose which causes vertical stretch loads on them from power input. That's the gist of it, but if you don't understand, I can clarify more.

Not tightening spokes enough seems to be a problem from what I've read on this forum, which leads to broken spokes.

I went into this wanting to build my own MC wheel, but like Rick said, it's really easy to build a bad wheel. Besides that, I know that this place in town that built my wheel has lots of experience, and they gave me a good deal on building the wheel. I can honestly say I'll feel a lot better when I'm going 50mph knowing that a professional built my wheel and not having to worry about my spokes breaking like I've read about on this forum from several people. It might be worth going to talk to some reputable motorcycle shops in town to get a feel for whether they could handle a build like this, and are willing to take it on. I went to three different shops before I found the one who ended up building the wheel for me.

On the other hand, you have guys like Rick who seems to have built some nice wheels, so you may end up lucky enough to have the same success he has had if you give it a try building your own wheel.

 

[2007blueprius]

its a work of passion I guess. and if you are of meticulous nature, you know what they say nobody else can do it better, if you get stuck we can help, details as such whch spoke goes in first and valvestem clearence, details you can cross when you get there, order the suff, get a couple extra spokes and some npples, you will round some off if its your first time, I still do it. a good spoke wrench, off you go, I like Rixes screw idea, I preffer a ruller this way I can compare one side to the other make sure they are perfectly centeres, and not dished unless you ment to

oh and a 2 cross or 3 cross, on a large DD hub and 19" wheel, forget it