2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

[menvert]

FYI
Yona is no longer working for Xiongda, Bonnie is now following up on my issue.
Bonnie is going through her old requests though.

 

[d8veh]

I had an email about my order from Yona just a few days ago. What makes you think she's gone?

 

[menvert]

I had an email about my order from Yona just a few days ago. What makes you think she's gone?

Yona is no longer listed as a contact in alibaba so asked Bonnie and she confirmed.
She'll be sending me replacement gears tomorrow, but can't send grease (airmail restriction apparently), so I plan to buy some PTFE (basically Teflon) wet Lube, anyone have experience with what would be the best lube?

 

[docnjoj]

Well the motor lasted about 100 feet, made a loud knocking sound and stopped. It had previously lasted 10 miles but this was the first time with the Lipo 44 volt batteries. Perhaps the voltage was too much? Don't know, but this is getting to be a drama queen set up. I have spent far too much time on it. I'll troubleshoot tomorrow but probably, as much as I like the motor, I will go back to the good old 9C and stop being a bike mechanic. It makes me reluctant to buy another.
otherDoc

 

[docnjoj]

I had another look and the motor is locked up. The freewheel works but the motor will not rotate either with power on or off. It clicks in high and does nothing in low.
Tomorrow is another day.
otherDoc

 

[d8veh]

That's strange. I've done 2600 trouble-free miles and I'm now using my first 36v motor at 48v (13S). It's done about 350 miles like that and seems absolutely fine. It's fast too. There must be some undiscovered fault in your motor somewhere.

 

[docnjoj]

Thanks Dave
I don't know> I wrote to Bonnie and we will see, but it simply takes too much effort to rebuild these motors, at least for an old guy like me. I do love the torque and the speed and the quiet, but not the rebuild effort.
OtherDoc

 

[menvert]

Yup, being without our bikes is not fun and public transport is not nice + the $100 in fares so far, could have been a bike upgrade instead...
I think if I get a 2nd issue within the next 2500k I'll be at least getting a replacement single speed wheel I can swap out when needed, I do enjoy tinkering, but when I cant ride, that's costing me too much

My replacement cogs are in transit, I got Bonnie to send a 48v controller too, that should fix my other issue where the controller seems to go weird on fully charged 12s battery.

It's hard to imagine how it'd seize up though, maybe a bearing, I thought the clutches would mostly work without the springs, they seem to be like wedges that naturally get stuck in place, but naturally come out in other direction, but maybe the spring is actually essential to un-wedge it and one's gone walkabout?

 

[docnjoj]

Yup, being without our bikes is not fun and public transport is not nice + the $100 in fares so far, could have been a bike upgrade instead...
I think if I get a 2nd issue within the next 2500k I'll be at least getting a replacement single speed wheel I can swap out when needed, I do enjoy tinkering, but when I cant ride, that's costing me too much

My replacement cogs are in transit, I got Bonnie to send a 48v controller too, that should fix my other issue where the controller seems to go weird on fully charged 12s battery.

It's hard to imagine how it'd seize up though, maybe a bearing, I thought the clutches would mostly work without the springs, they seem to be like wedges that naturally get stuck in place, but naturally come out in other direction, but maybe the spring is actually essential to un-wedge it and one's gone walkabout?

Well it certainly is possible and once I get my old 9C motor and S12S back on the trike I will take the XiongDa apart again and see. I know all the springs were in the right place when I reassembled it and it did run for a while. I have an old Bafang motor sitting around which I may use too. The tech is great but not the lack of reliability of the 2 speed.
otherDoc

 

[waingroo]

Well it certainly is possible and once I get my old 9C motor and S12S back on the trike I will take the XiongDa apart again and see. I know all the springs were in the right place when I reassembled it and it did run for a while. I have an old Bafang motor sitting around which I may use too. The tech is great but not the lack of reliability of the 2 speed.
otherDoc

Being accused that i have something with Xiongda, I took the decision to stop posting on this thread.

With just one remark: All chinese producers do not invenst enough or nothing in testing their products. Normaly, one product should be well tested before place it on market.

Take care guys, because there is not a problem for loss of 100$... even 1000$. Our lives are priceless and who knows how many people suffer because worst chinese things (like car parts, dangerous tools and even dangerous kid toys).

Think about blocking the front wheel because of broken gears when you try to cross a street or cycling downhill!I have friend enjuried by a chinese stem pipe (actually chinese bike) who broken at very low speed.

This motor is not mature at all ! China only make good things when is under pressure by trusted brands.

 

[docnjoj]

Hey Waingroo
I am sorry thet you are choosing not to post here anymore, since you do seem to have some experience with Chinese QA. I think that the family that runs XiongDa are doing the best that they can with cutting edge technology. It is not easy bringing a new product to market.
That being said, there is a need for testing, and we are the test subjects. I think that we all are doing this knowingly, and the fact that the 2 speed motors are reasonable in cost is no bad thing. The only other 2-speed bike motor I know of is SRAM, and you can't buy it without a bike that they sell.
The problem with this way of testing is that flaws will be found, and when they are (like the broken gear problem) there is a real nuisance factor doing the rebuilds. Then the cost pf getting a working motor starts to "stack up", and it is not that easy for us guinea pigs to cover the costs. Down time for broken motors really adds up.
I guess my point is that any new endeavor has risks, and not all those risks belong to the manufacturer. Some are born by the customer, us. That does get old fast with products that break a lot, as many new ones do. This is the difference between a viable product and a "science fair" project. I am not sure which category the Xiongda motor belongs in.
otherDoc

 

[menvert]

I agree doc. I and I hope anyone else on the thread knew this was an immature product. it was less than 6 months production when I got mine. I knew the risks and wanted to contribute too. I didn't need you to leave wangaroo, i guess you were just talking about something we all had accepted as the standard Risks with this stuff.

Maybe in 10 years time Chinese manafacturing will value quality and testing as much as the more mature mfg countries, but then they would lose a lot of market share as price skyrockets, right now they compete on cost as the primary property... I buy a Chinese product because I don't want to pay the huge cost of say a German equivalent product.

I am glad that Unlike other companies I have dealt with, XiongDa have really good communication and are genuinely trying to produce a good product. Try getting a response from bmsbat within hours....

 

[waingroo]

Thank you all @docnjoj ; @menvert; @d8veh and all this thread readers.

In fact, I belive that XD motor can be transformed in a HQ hub with a bit more interventions and this is why i'll gonna buy it too.

Here i'll tell you what I will gonna do with it:

1. The best thing to longer life of the hub is to add ATF oil in it (e.g. Dexron II). Why, you may ask?! Because the grease will be given away from gears just after few rotations, no matter how sticky the grease is. In my view, the grease can be used only if the gears are in touch with a metal plate to collect it permanently from it. Without any distance between gears and plate. Just like in the case of the clutch where the bolts collect grease between two metal plates. Also oil will help the hub cooling.
One more reason is that oil have a capacity to lube much better than any grease. I don't know any gear transmission of a car using grease, but oil. Another reason is that will be more quiet, as example, when I spin one side of my AT trans (4L30E) who haave a very complex planetarry carrier than a bike hub, i only hear a FSSSSS... nothing more.

2. Another thing I'll do is to re-cast gears from carbon used resin (epoxy), BUT not just that. I'll try to cast them without leaving hole for bearings , but with hole enough to fit directly on the bolts. A better way is to use copper bushings made by lathe and with a channel to let oil lube permanenly. Will be more durable, and this way is used on piston bolts of motorcycles instead pin bearings. Copper also have the capacity to lower the friction. Just think about car cranckshafts who have no bearings... Another reason is that the one way bearings/clutches are made to work under oil.

3. I will try to seal better the hub case (outside bearings), just enough to keep better oil inside. For this can work seal bearings or DIY rubber washers. Anyway, if the motor will be filled just a quarter, (lower than the axle) there will be no problem IMO.

4. As the motor is not mature, I will try not to change the speed when cycling, but rather i'll stop and change it.

These are some of my ideas, but perhaps with the motor in the front of mine i can find much more better changes. I'm not shame to tell you that I have not enough money to buy it now. In RO the salary is less than 500$ and prices same like in the rest of countries. The motors I have are taken from used e-bikes. I had the luck to buy as new tranzx battery for just 50$.

IMO, this is the future of the motors.... using more speeds. The first was SRAM Sparc with about 5 or 6 speeds. I'm think about one using CVT just like NuVinci or cone type CVT.

 

[waingroo]

Read this about using oil into the hub:

http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/archive/index.php/t-90633.html

https://etrike.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/oil-cooling-a-bafang-swxh-geared-hub-motor/

 

[docnjoj]

My big concern is with the gears too. As soon as I have a bit of time I will re-open the Xiongda and see what failed this second time. If gears, there is a serious problem. If clutch rollers or bearings, a new problem. Unfortunately to make the gear changes not on the fly could defeat the purpose of the motor. The carbon gears or copper gears with precision centers will seriously drive up the cost, and may not be the problem. We shall see. Good luck with your test program, Waingroo. It seems like we all could learn a lot from it, including the XiongDa folks.
otherDoc

 

[menvert]

Xiongda use DHL I am glad, took 3 days CN > AU from when it was posted;
Not sure if the plastic is different or not (EDIT from docnjoj's pics of replacement parts, it seems to be a different plastic so I have new white parts not the old yellow plastic), as the yellow on the old ones may be from grease, the bearing on the centre cog looks better though.

And the new 48v, maybe the auto switch level will be better too

 

[docnjoj]

Well the flu finally got me and I am out of commission for this weekend. I'm waiting for a Cute100 to arrive which I will use while I check out the XiongDa and see what broke this time. Still like this motor but in has now broken x2.
otherDoc

 

[waingroo]

Xiongda use DHL I am glad, took 3 days CN > AU from when it was posted;
Not sure if the plastic is different or not (EDIT from docnjoj's pics of replacement parts, it seems to be a different plastic so I have new white parts not the old yellow plastic), as the yellow on the old ones may be from grease, the bearing on the centre cog looks better though.

Hope the best now, but in your photos i've observed something that can worry! The space between cogs is quite big for an epicyclic assembly. If this space still remain after the ring gear is mounted on the speed planet gears, then. there is a big problem.

 

[d8veh]

That's the camera angle. If you look at the other two, there is no space.

 

[docnjoj]

True dat! The gears mesh quite well and you need to take care to make sure they do. Takes a bit of time.
otherDoc

 

[waingroo]

I really hope this time there will be no problem, because I would like to buy it. I need some extra torque on my hilly area where I live and I wish tho have a good/normal quality XiongDa... just like tasty and berst in the world chinese green tea

I'll gonna keep my eyes on further posts to see the hub evolution.

 

[menvert]

True dat! The gears mesh quite well and you need to take care to make sure they do. Takes a bit of time.
otherDoc

Yeah in the pic the middle gear is just floating, so it's actually pushed up into the top 2 gears. With the axel holding it centre it meshes nicely, not too tight not too loose.
It was a challenge to get them to mesh correctly, I hope I got it right.
Getting the unit onto the locating pin while gears are at correct angle to mesh was pretty dificult, especially when it's now generously covered in slippery grease... I don't really like the locating pin design, it seems to offer too much play.

The old Grease in this one wasn't doing much, it seems to be a mostly dry type lube or it had dried out to a paste, originally white or cream colour, but it wasn't making so much contact anymore.

time to mount in the axel and see if it works...
EDIT:
Rides nice on my 1km test (still old 36v controller) it really is nearly silent now, no more high speed tick sound, all that extra grease must help. it's hardly even 'clacking' after a hard gear change now (i did push as much grease as I could into the clutches too) so now to charge batteries full, and think about mounting the 48v controller...

I did inspect the old triple planet gear teeth and they looked worn down to a much more linear triangle shape rather than having the dual angles of the metal and new plastic cog teeth, the Sun and ring gears looks fine, so hopefully this white plastic is a better compaound and/or the wet grease I am using will do a better job at absorbing the stresses that that dry stuff that was in it.

 

[menvert]

Seems I am having some bad luck :? the 48v KT controller seems defective, getting only .5v instead of about 5/4.5 on the low voltage lines anyone know circuits enough to know if this might be an easy solder fix or something? (seems odd to be a 10th of what it should be, like wrong resister or something)

 

[waingroo]

Seems I am having some bad luck :? the 48v KT controller seems defective, getting only .5v instead of about 5/4.5 on the low voltage lines anyone know circuits enough to know if this might be an easy solder fix or something? (seems odd to be a 10th of what it should be, like wrong resister or something)

The 36V motor hub differ from the 48V one? Or is just the controller?

 

[d8veh]

Seems I am having some bad luck :? the 48v KT controller seems defective, getting only .5v instead of about 5/4.5 on the low voltage lines anyone know circuits enough to know if this might be an easy solder fix or something? (seems odd to be a 10th of what it should be, like wrong resister or something)

It's normally a sign that you've got a short on your 5v somewhere outside the controller. Check to see that your throttle, brake and PAS connectors are the same wires on each side. The new controller might have a different sequence.