2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

Good luck with an appealing product.
 
Green Machine said:
There are a few rumors going around about unreliability in this motor a few years back when people first experimented with it.

Has anyone with real experience with this motor experienced any failures?

I know all geared hub motors become unreliable once you start overvolting and amping them up....

but so far even at 1600 watts this motor has seemed pretty solid in our tests.

WE are testing tomorrow on a bike and a trike ;)
Click to expand...

Yes. My ~100-110 mm, 48 volt version shelled a nylon gear after ~200 miles. I had the standard controller, and never put more than ~15 amps thru it. I ran/run it on a 16" wheel, in front of a Bikee E2 tandem recumbent. X sent me a new gear, and I solicited advice on this forum. Apparently X was "lubing" with only sticky white "dry" lube in mid 2015. I lubed with a combo of PTFE gear oil and light oil, and now hear very little, after another ~700 miles, much of it at full throttle. 2 questions for you. Do you have a 100-110 mm version? What were your winding modifications, and how do you think they improved performance?
 
Oh, FYI, Green Machine. Some folks here swear up and down that backing up the wheel craters it. I think my failure was from lube, but these folks sure seem expert in other areas. I take their advice and am VERY careful not to backup my wheel - even if it shows no resistance....
 
you mean backing up the bike simply by pushing the bike backwards while not under power?

we had another great hill testing today today.... no motor failures and torture testing on steep hill....

i am really loving this motor....

this was our 3rd day of strenuos hill testing and this time with 300 pound rider and one bike and one trike... no motor failures.....
 
Green Machine said:
you mean backing up the bike simply by pushing the bike backwards while not under power?

we had another great hill testing today today.... no motor failures and torture testing on steep hill....

i am really loving this motor....

this was our 3rd day of strenuos hill testing and this time with 300 pound rider and one bike and one trike... no motor failures.....
Click to expand...

As stated many times in this thread, rolling forward will coast both clutches. One clutch catching rolling backwards will not be a problem as the motor will simply turn "backwards". If both clutches catch rolling backwards, then it is instant lock up with only a few teeth of the plastic gears to stop the momentum of the bike and rider.
 
we have been testing our combo with a 72 volt battery on hills.... which i dont recommend for regular use...but we are trying to find the weak point in the motor.

our battery was at 82v so times 20 amps = roughly 1600 watts....

we did fry a display at 72 volts while testing today.... we were doing things like starting from a dead stop in the middle of a steep hill..... i definitely do not recommend 72 volts for this little motor....we are doing it as testing.

We have not managed to fry a motor or controller yet beating the hell out of them. We did 3 testing days.

i am confident now selling the motor for 48 or 52v usage with our 20amp sine wave controller....
 
I think that this motor can be a great product if the earlier issues have been worked out. Quite a few owners had multiple motors fail mechanically in only a few months of ownership. I think that their reports resulted in most of us moving on to a different product, even though we were very interested in the beginning.
Have internal mechanical design changes been made as a result of you working with the manufacturer?
Any info you can share regarding improvements might help people feel more comfortable.
 
Nelson37 said:
GreenMachine, I highly suggest you read this entire thread, there are NUMEROUS gear failures reported, a few with backwards rolling, and one on a trike, but roughly 8 to 10 with major gear blowouts and no report of the rearward rolling problem. Several with pictures, some more than one failure.

I summarized these failures in another thread, new user was looking at it for a first build, somebody recommended this .........thing.

It is a neat idea, but IMO the implementation is a tremendous failure. I personally would not touch one with a ten foot pole nor recommend it to anybody, and it will take quite some time and many user reports before I change that opinion. A mere statement from the company that they have changed the grease formulation and that has solved everything is just not going to cut it.

It seems to work for a few months or weeks and then experience massive gear-tooth blowouts. There were more users who referenced severe problem than those who were trouble-free, by a wide margin.
Click to expand...

I definitely do not agree with this. If you remain in the motor specs, it is working great and very reliable. I have been thoroughly testing them and no problems have occurred.
1 front wheel that I use on 36v 14a that has ran about 2000km already, transporting heavy loads and people that don't have leg muscles on a city bike and one rear wheel that I use on 36v 10a on a mountain bike which I have really given a hard time doing real hardcore offroad with deep mud, incredibly steep up and downhill etc for over 1200km already (its an early model that has the backwards blocking thing) and they don't show any sign of wear, they are running as smooth and silent as when they were new.

You shouldn't forget that forum topics like this one attract people that have problems, because people without problems do not go and search a help topic and post in it.

Of all the people complaining about failure, the most are using the motor with big voltages and full ampere powaaah.
The force of this motor is that it remains within European/Australian law limits and it can still do a great job climbing.

If you want an electric motor cycle this might not be the right motor to use, but if you want a low power motor that can take you up any steep hill without sweating, the XD is the best invention since sliced bread!
 
Skepticism is welcomed. Claims of an improved product should be examined closely. However, I recall that when MAC upgraded the plastic in the gears (Roughly $2 per motor?), it was news-worthy, since the "peanut butter" gears of the cheapest variety (found on the original BPM) were vulnerable to torque when they were hot.

Clearly this version of the Xiongda has temp sensor now, is it really so hard to believe that the Luna version has an improved plastic in the gears? I pay more for a cup of coffee than it costs to upgrade the gear plastic from the factory. You have to pay cash up front and commit to buying at least 100 units before Chinese factory will change any aspect of a certain model of motor. That being said, who else is ordering 100+ Xiongda 2-speed motors with upgrades?

If you liked the Xiongda before, and you live in North America? The Luna version is better than before. If you didn't like the Xiongda before, then...there is nothing here that will change your mind.

My opinion? if you are committed to following the US legal 750W power limit, and you want a hub motor? This is an excellent choice. I have a DD hubmotor with a 35mm wide stator that $h!ts 750W before breakfast, and doesn't even get warm.
 
Knutselmaaster,

We have higher power limits here in the U.S. So most of us run 48 volt systems now, and more and more people here are switching over to 52 volt systems , Especially with Luna offering so many different 52 volt battery packs for sale.
So
It looks like there will be a new round of testing on this motor at 52 volts. Good.

For someone like me who likes the simplicity of a Rear Hub Motor, and who lives in a Hilly , and , Mountainous area, just a few Km's out side of my front door, this motor looks attractive,
However Having a Battery that I can use on more than one bike is needed ( 48 current battery , and a 52 volt in the future ).

Other Geared Hub motors run slower and have more torque to go hills and pull things when running on lower ( 36 v ) voltages.
But by how much on this XD motor between 36 volts and 48 or 52 volts ?

Have you thought about testing your bike with the XD motor on those same off road trails ?
, with a 52 volt pack. ( It still would not be like a motorcycle, I have a Mac rear hub motor running on 48 volts and it is nothing like a motorcycle ( I own a Motorcycle as well) The Mac running at 800-900 watts , only gets up to around 37 Kph, on the Flat Roads , with 650B Wheels .






knutselmaaster said:
Nelson37 said:
It seems to work for a few months or weeks and then experience massive gear-tooth blowouts. There were more users who referenced severe problem than those who were trouble-free, by a wide margin.
Click to expand...

I definitely do not agree with this. If you remain in the motor specs, it is working great and very reliable. I have been thoroughly testing them and no problems have occurred.
1 front wheel that I use on 36v 14a that has ran about 2000km already, transporting heavy loads and people that don't have leg muscles on a city bike and one rear wheel that I use on 36v 10a on a mountain bike which I have really given a hard time doing real hardcore offroad with deep mud, incredibly steep up and downhill etc for over 1200km already (its an early model that has the backwards blocking thing) and they don't show any sign of wear, they are running as smooth and silent as when they were new.



Of all the people complaining about failure, the most are using the motor with big voltages and full ampere powaaah.
The force of this motor is that it remains within European/Australian law limits and it can still do a great job climbing.

If you want an electric motor cycle this might not be the right motor to use, but if you want a low power motor that can take you up any steep hill without sweating, the XD is the best invention since sliced bread!
Click to expand...
 
Indeed, I only test this motor because I will sell it here in my European shop. So the only thing that is important for me to know is that it is reliable in European street legal circumstances. (25km/h and 250w)
So I test it by "mistreating" it with ~100% more power and extreme environments.

I know that there is a 48v version (I only try/sell 36v) and if the only difference is the windings I can imagine that the gears have a hard time, with the same amperage as the 36v version they will have 50% more power to cope with.
 
ScooterMan101 said:
Knutselmaaster,

We have higher power limits here in the U.S. So most of us run 48 volt systems now, and more and more people here are switching over to 52 volt systems , Especially with Luna offering so many different 52 volt battery packs for sale.
So
It looks like there will be a new round of testing on this motor at 52 volts.
For someone like me who likes the simplicity of a Rear Hub Motor, and who lives in a Hilly , and , Mountainous area, just a few Km's out side of my front door, this motor looks attractive, However Having a Battery that I can use on more than one bike is needed.

Other Geared Hub motors run slower and have more torque to go hills and pull things when running on lower ( 36 v ) voltages.
But by how much on this XD motor betwen 46 volts and 48 or 52 volts ?

Have you thought about testing your bike with the XD motor on those same off road trails ?
, with a 52 volt pack. ( It still would not be like a motorcycle, I have a Mac rear hub motor running on 48 volts and it is nothing like a motorcycle ( I own a Motorcycle as well) The Mac running at 800-900 watts , only gets up to around 37 Kph, on the Flat Roads , with 650B Wheels .

Scooterman, I run mine on 54 (charged) to ~44.5 (lo volt cut off) volts, and 0-14 amps, here in St. Louis and while winterbirding in California or Florida. It's laced to the 16" front wheel of our Bikee E2 tandem recumbent. Since getting the hub lube right (I think) our experience has been like kneuter's. We are slower (~15 m/h max powered), but for errands and tandem touring, just right for us. Climbs MANY hills at ~5-6 m/h with 2 aboard, no pedaling. Yes, no "electric motorcycle", but fills our niche just fine....




knutselmaaster said:
Nelson37 said:
It seems to work for a few months or weeks and then experience massive gear-tooth blowouts. There were more users who referenced severe problem than those who were trouble-free, by a wide margin.
Click to expand...

I definitely do not agree with this. If you remain in the motor specs, it is working great and very reliable. I have been thoroughly testing them and no problems have occurred.
1 front wheel that I use on 36v 14a that has ran about 2000km already, transporting heavy loads and people that don't have leg muscles on a city bike and one rear wheel that I use on 36v 10a on a mountain bike which I have really given a hard time doing real hardcore offroad with deep mud, incredibly steep up and downhill etc for over 1200km already (its an early model that has the backwards blocking thing) and they don't show any sign of wear, they are running as smooth and silent as when they were new.



Of all the people complaining about failure, the most are using the motor with big voltages and full ampere powaaah.
The force of this motor is that it remains within European/Australian law limits and it can still do a great job climbing.

If you want an electric motor cycle this might not be the right motor to use, but if you want a low power motor that can take you up any steep hill without sweating, the XD is the best invention since sliced bread!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Hey guys i apologize...

I just made a large post describing what went into the development of this motor kit (we are super proud of the kit) and after spending all that time on the post ... i decided to delete...and copy into my word processor where i will refine it and add pics etc.

unfortunatley because of a few bad seeds endless sphere is becoming a hostile place for me to post and there are a couple of guys following me around questioning every word i write etc.

It breaks my heart to see this.... i have been on es since its conception....before its conception actually...an original member of the zappy groups, and then the v is for voltage....i was a former moderator on endless sphere..... i spent a significant part of my life researching and contributing to the knowledge base of this forum.

I have always been a rider and a builder with no commercial interests...and no plan to start a business. i started Luna because i thought i could improve the DIY ebike scene and make it a better place with awesome motors like this one offfered at a great price. that i could help push the high performance technologies forward by bringing awesome stuff like this to market.

but since i started luna cycle i have a few bad seeds following me around trolling me. lots of untrurths etc.. and if any and every word i write can be used against me over and over again.

SO even though i want to share what we learned about this motor and what we changed etc....i think its better i spend the time and write an entire article on electricbike.com and then post the link here....

I dont want to sit here and argue with a couple of trolls. i dont have any free time for that.

I havent posted much on electricbike.com since starting luna because of accused conflict of interest...but since i am being accused anyway why not. i have completely neglected electricbike.com which is a site i built from the ground up without ever planning to sale a thing.

I will post a complete article soon....and post link here

I am super proud of this kit.... also a video of the display interface is coming soon.

I have nothing but love for the ES community.... but every family i guess has bad seeds and i hate to be trolled and brought down and it probably upsets me more than it should.

I will post a link to more information soon on this motor and our kit. I should take the time and write cohesive article..... since every sentence will be scrutinized and in forums i tend to write super fast ;) and can make mistakes.

I really appreciate ES and 99 percent of you guys are awesome and i am internally grateful for all the knowledge and friends etc i got here.


ERIC
 
I liked the previous version of your post more than this one.
It is definitely not cool if people post replies based on how much they like/dislike the people who posted instead of the content of the post.

This forum is a great source of information and a lot of people, including myself, make decisions based on information found here.

People that bash a product that they don't know, just because they don't like one of the resellers should be ashamed of theirselves. Because of them good products can get a bad name, and resellers that have nothing to do with the involved people (like me) can loose their business and investments because of that kind of behavior.
 
I'm sure the initial interest in both these topics was from eurpopeans and us colonials. For me, i did 80klms of fast vertical climbing inc. some relentless passes over 10kft with (and still haven't needed to open) the mac hub mtr so less interested in alternates. Shrug. Even from the US based sellers/modifiers/builders, i'm sure there would be a market in refinements, but those suitable to keep it legal over here (eg gear composites/wiring/heat mgmt/ parameter display)? Perhaps even more than the interest stateside? I'm and old newbie but may have an avenue needing a multiple purchase... reliability in any hands being the key.
 
So you "strongly advise" with as only source the posts on this forum? You have never used/seen the product nor you have actual information on how much of these have been sold and the percentage of broken ones?
 
There have been breakages of the most popular motors around here, it is really "what we do" here at endless-sphere. You must compare the number of breakages in this thread, over the time that this thread has been active (first post, March 2014), and compare that to the total number of motors sold. How many have sold? How many of those were actually run at my recommended power level of 750W?

It is possible to experience a condition where the rear wheel locks up when you try to roll it backwards (due to the dual gear-sets). If this is an issue for any particular potential builder, do not buy this hubmotor. It is a light hubmotor, I can lift the rear of the bike and scoot it backwards if I need to. I understand that being able to roll the bike backwards with all of the weight of the bike on the wheels is important to some potential buyers. If this is the case, then this motor is not for you.

The features of this hubmotor are not for everyone, but...for some buyers? it is a useful option. I am impressed that Luna has a high-temp shut-down inside the controller (why don't all of the controllers around here have this? how much could it possibly cost?), and I like the new dashboard. If any reader has any reservations, don't buy it. Luna will be "sold out" of these very quickly, no need to sell one to someone who doesn't actually want these particular features. 750w doesn't really interest me (the video shows 850W on the dashboard, but...lets be honest, its not 2600W, amirite?)
 
spinningmagnets said:
There have been breakages of the most popular motors around here, it is really "what we do" here at endless-sphere. You must compare the number of breakages in this thread, over the time that this tread has been active, and compare that to the total number of motors sold. How many have sold? How many of those were actually run at my recommended power level of 750W?

It is possible to experience a condition where the rear wheel locks up when you try to roll it backwards (due to the dual gear-sets). If this is an issue for any particular potential builder, do not buy this hubmotor. It is a light hubmotor, I can lift the rear of the bike and scoot it backwards if I need to. I understand that being able to roll the bike backwards with all of the weight of the bike on the wheels is important to some potential buyers. If this is the case, then this motor is not for you.

The features of this hubmotor are not for everyone, but...for some buyers? it is a useful option. I am impressed that Luna has a high-temp shut-down inside the controller (why don't all of the controllers around here have this? how much could it possibly cost?), and I like the new dashboard. If any reader has any reservations, don't buy it. Luna will be "sold out" of these very quickly, no need to sell one to someone who doesn't actually want these particular features. 750w doesn't really interest me (the video shows 850W on the dashboard, but...lets be honest, its not 2600W, amirite?)
Click to expand...

Best post yet. My $0.02 worth. If you can't remember not to back your bike up, don't buy. If you want more than 5-600 watts, don't buy. If it's too much trouble for you to either get straight with Xion... on how they now lube the motors they currently send out, and then decide if you're happy with that, or ask me how I lube mine (or reread the LONG thread on best practices), don't buy. But a 1.8 low ratio, with buttery smooth autoshift was too good to resist for me, and I'm reaping the rewards now. My wife and sister in law will have a "no need to pedal" recumbent tandem bike they can ride up and down Estero Avenue (or to the Publix) in Fort Myers for the next month. And my wife and I will have the perfect Ft. Myers pub crawler for the next 2 months.....
 
For those who witness the backwards blocking, simply running the motor for a brief instant in the high gear (the bike doesn't need to go forward, it just needs to engage) gets it free again.

And I do not say that the number of failure is low on this motor, as I do not have enough information to be able to judge that.
What I do know that there are a lot of these that have left the factory the last 3 years, and that they are sold worldwide under several names.
I read forums in 4 languages and haven't seen an alarming number of complaints. Taking that in consideration, as well as the severe mistreating I have given my test bikes, I have no reason to think that this motor is worse than other types/models.
 
Do you mean that after backing your bike up , like we do at stores and places where we store our bikes,
That
You should twist the throttle to get it to engage with the wheel ...

Off the Ground ?

or is it ok to hold the brake and twist the throttle with the wheel on the Ground ?


Here in the U.S.A. we have a slang word ... Hotrodding,
However

That could mean just putting more volts into the motor ( 13/14/16 s battery pack instead of 10s pack )
or
To use the Same Voltage / battery pack and put more amps into the motor
or
Both Over volt and over amp the motor.

I am interested in which one, or combination of the above usages that the 2 speed Xiongda Motor would work well/ok with doing.
and
Which would shorten the life of the motor ?

Thermal Cutoff is a great idea and a great improvement , as well as a better Display, and HiGo Connectors ... Those three items alone , have made me re-consider getting this motor .
now what about the gears / clutch , etc at higher Voltages and / or Amperages ?

At the price of , nearly $ 500 U.S. with Tax and Shipping , not including the cost of a Rim/Spokes/Wheel build, Those Items/issues will have to be addressed/corrected if need be.
When they are I am very interested in this motor.
 
Thanks for the reply...I don't know what the wholesale cost from the factory is, are you suggesting that Luna is charging way too much for this? If yes, you are a champion of the humble ebike consumer. Is there anyone else that you feel is "charging too much"? Perhaps we can work together to illuminate the ratio of wholesale vs retail around here?
 
How can I add some Diplomacy into this thread ?

Well first , I am happy to pay more for improvements like a better Display , A Thermal Cutoff Feature in the System , and the Connectors I would love to see on all E-Bike Kits now and in the future, the HiGo Connectors .
How much more ? , I don't know, what I do know is that I want any product to work ... without problems for how and where I am using it.

I have a keen interest in this little motor for a couple of reasons, Light weight, and the ability to go up hills with different gearing than on the flat roads. ( and also the three improvements listed above )

Where I live there are Hundred's of different climbs, at different distances and also at different degrees of slope. More demanding for a Hub motor than most every other place that I can think of, around here a low speed/high torque motor is needed, as well as a higher speed/low torque motor .

Does Eric have all the improvements needed on this motor, or does he have V 2.0 when V 3.0 is needed ? That is the Big Question , I almost can not wait for his article on this motor , and what all he has done with it .
 
The thread has become too long. I continue to believe the menvert got the primary mode of failure - bad initial lube - correct. Look at his posts around page 41, where he describes what he did to improve upon that initial lube, resulting in many thousands of km service. I did this too, over a year ago, after my nylon gear shred. I only have a little over 1000 additional (high amp) km, after my rebuild/relube (not hard at all, even for a rookie like me), but also trouble free...
 
ScooterMan 101, It sounds like that...the 2-speed Xiongda might not be the best motor for your application. It's probably a good thing that you didn't try to buy it yet, because...they will likely be sold out soon, to customers who have a more appropriate user profile.

Have you considered a Bafang BBS02? The seven gears provided by a common 7-speed freewheel can allow a rider to tackle a wide variety of terrains, certainly more than a 2-speed, like the Xiongda. The prices are similar, so...

I am quite happy with the BBSHD at 1500W, but for 750W...the BBS02 might be a better fit.
 
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