2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

[craiggor]

Were the new gears a different composite do you think Craiggor?

Bonnie confirmed the standard units packs an ordinary kunteng Kt3 screen and does auto shifting. I had a solution for auto shifting worked out but it seems its not needed.

Shipping is reasonable on 2pcs so I will grab a 36v and 48v to test. My neighbour wants a small build too.


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The new gears looked the same as the old to me.

 

[Green Machine]

some video of hill testing at 52v and 20amps and a 300 pound rider. In LOW and at 52v it goes about 10mph without pedaling.....not even 20mph in high gear.

Thanks for all the insight on the gears and such....we will keep an eye out for sure.

On short steep hills like this there are no issues with overheating or slipping. But of course nothing is for certain until the kit is being out ridden for hundreds of miles.

Guys can you tell me if other small hub motors would be able to do this? like the cutie 100 etc? i am not that familiar with them.

[youtube]pyjXEeAyVZg[/youtube]

 

[craiggor]

Congratulations, you have raised the count of Xiongda with broken gearsets to an even dozen! Hooray! Or did you already report this one earlier in the thread? The picture and missing spring story sounds familiar.

Any grease on the new gears and if so does it seem to be any different that the original grease? There are one or two reports that A - the factory grease may have been changed, and B - using a different grease may prolong gearset life.

On reflection, though, you already had more miles than the user who replaced the grease himself, (1100, IIRC) and at 1400 miles before failure are among the highest of those users who experienced one, so you could already have the new grease.

The grease is kinda important as, so far at least, changing it has been the only effort made by anyone, anywhere, in an effort to solve the problem.

All ready reported on here.I bought mine at a time when it was mentioned the thick grease had been changed,so did not open up to check.when the gears striped and I opened it the grease remained me of blue tack.

There was a thread on here about oil cooling of motors.so I decided to dill and tap my motor housing and spary in some dry wd-40 PTFE every now and then.

Someone else on here uses the wet wd-40 PTFE.

 

[Green Machine]

when you guys did strip gears how where you riding it? climbing a long hill? on start up?

How many volts were you running? what amp controller?

 

[bigoilbob]

Thats a shame, the automatic shift on the KT controller works so good.

Just so, knutselmaaster. IMO, they actually put a very slight pause in the shift, to reduce inertial loads on the nylon gear. And I swear, the amps come on so smoothly, it seems like they also programmed that in smooth things out and reduce loads. I use the "low" setting VERY occasionally, and only with hills and a rider on my recumbent. And I let others ride my Bikee E2 with only little discussion by me, and maybe a lap under my supervision. It's that rider friendly. I would MUCH rather have ~550 watts with auto than a kw with manual shift.....

 

[craiggor]

when you guys did strip gears how where you riding it? climbing a long hill? on start up?

How many volts were you running? what amp controller?

36v 15 amps stripped gears on start up.foolishly changed gear and tryied to pull off again and stripped 2nd gear.The clutch had been rattling really bad that day.

 

[Samd]

Thanks craiggor i will compare on arrival. Width and pressure angle looks a bit if a worry but hubs like this really ought to be on small commuters anyway.

A bpm or bigger for hauling.


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[Green Machine]

in this discussion i accused etrike and sam of being a troll but sam has chilled out a lot so all is cool.

Yeah i do crazy stuff like that like buy 200 motors without reading a 50 page thread.

Honestly i didnt even know this thread existed until after i got the kits and i was seeing through google research if anyone had the motor and this thread came up. Honestly i did not even read the article on my own site that Ron wrote.

I operate differently than most other vendors.

I had 3 very trusted sources ... 2 of them in china tell me this motor was the shit..high level guys. one a factory owner for another motor. .... basically the kind of guys you listen too.

their arent many exciting hub design in china.... this is about the only one i have seen. At one point last year we were going from factory to factory looking at geared hub motors and they were pretty much all the same.

I talked with the factory owner who makes this motor and he is very excited to work with us... .and he assured me the motor could handle 20 amps 48 volts and he would make sure of it.


he would never sale this motor before with more than a 17 amp 36v controller..... so i am pretty sure they made something special for me. i got faith like that ....maybe i am wrong and so what if i am.

when i get the word from the factory owner he can make me a bad asss motor i jump. you know eye to eye meeting is more important to me than 50 pages of reading forums looking for diamonds in a haystack.

i dont know if people remember when i got a container of bbshds 3 months before anyone else... imagine if i would have waited for 50 pages of forum posts....

and the bbs02 and bbshd can get undeserved reputations and with those motors i know what is fact and fiction and you got to take it all with a grain of salt. especially when there are people posting with ulterior motives etc.



I dont believe that these motors stay the same from year to year... i believe changes have been made and this thing is probably much more robust than its first production models 2 years ago.

so i think its useless data to count failure rates in a forum post that is 2 years old.

Good factories like this one know how to fix weaknesses. Also ideas like temp control can change a lot.

I will tell you another story....but got too long.... be right back gonna post it on electricbike.com and give link...its my new years resoluton to post there more for now on....

 

[Ypedal]

actually . Eric.

If you want to be a " Member " on the sphere, try writing here more and linking to your site.. LESS ..

 

[t3sla]

Eric are you using UART prototcol to communicate between that Lushui 6FET controller and the APT LCD display?

I belive the KT LCD/Controller achieves autoshifting while implementing UART, so should be interesting to play around and see if they are using the same protocol to achieve the AUTO gear shift

 

[Alan B]

I have followed this motor since the start of this thread. I want to make a lightweight folding bike that can climb 15% gradients and make decent speeds on lesser terrain. I did a lot of simulation and the other available small hubmotors would overheat quickly. This two-speed design is the only one that appears to be able to do the job.

The challenges of a small retro-direct dual speed hubmotor are many. First is the problem of rolling backwards. This is solved by a clever or extra clutch, but if this mechanism fails it is hard on the gears. This can be solved with good design and tolerancing.

Second is the shifting and clutching. Shifting must be done smoothly and slowly to avoid excessive peak forces on, and damages to the clutches. Hence the controllers have very slow shifting to avoid stressing the motor.

From reading this (and perhaps other) threads I recall that with the slow shifting it wasn't all that useful to shift this motor on acceleration. The motor could start in high gear and accelerate just fine. The low gear is really only for gradients as the slow shifting negates the advantage of starting in it. So the need for an automatic shifter is reduced. Especially since all automatic designs have situations where they will "hunt" and shift back and forth. It is better to choose the gear based on the conditions, just like shifting a mid drive.

Keeping in mind that this is a small motor - best suited for lighter bikes and lesser loads, and especially suitable for the small wheels of folding bikes. It is good to test at heavier loads and with larger wheels, but the best reliability will be at lower loading and with smaller wheels.

Correction here - was thinking of the wrong vendor (its' been awhile since I read this thread) and confusing with the vendor of the other small hubmotors. Ignore this vendor concern, the factory was responsive to problems:
Another problem was the availability - the one early vendor was not high on my list of vendors for many reasons, with very costly shipping and essentially no recourse for problems.

Some of these issues have been resolved. Perhaps I will try one out on my folding bike and answer some of these questions. The only other viable choice I have found for this bike is a small mid-drive which brings its own problems.

Thanks to all that helped fix these issues. This is an excellent design idea for a hubmotor. We could really use larger versions of it as well, but for a small hubmotor two speeds are especially important.

 

[Green Machine]

so what am i suppose to say to that?

oh thanks for the business advice i guess...

 

[Green Machine]

so on this kit the throttle and the shiftier button are mounted on the same side.

So you have to take your finger off the throttle to shift..... who knows maybe that fixes everything?

i know its simple minded.... but hey ... we are talking bicycles here guys. it sounds like auto transmission is bad idea.....

i mean come on .... shifting is fun and all it takes is you take your finger off the throttle and put it on a button and done....


is 2016 and there isnt a descent hub motor kit on the market and we have been trying for how long? this thread has been here for 3 years....

i will take one for the team and take the risk on this little motor .... but dont make fun of me for doing it.

I got faith in this little guy

plus its really not just about the motor.... the controller and display are more important.


i am the only dealer with this kit with sine wave 20 amp 48v controller, color display etc........ i would way rather be in that position with something i believe in then be with some shitty motor that 50 other sellers have on aliaba and ebay......and deal in that circus.

 

[bigoilbob]

I have followed this motor since the start of this thread. I want to make a lightweight folding bike that can climb 15% gradients and make decent speeds on lesser terrain. I did a lot of simulation and the other available small hubmotors would overheat quickly. This two-speed design is the only one that appears to be able to do the job.

The challenges of a small retro-direct dual speed hubmotor are many. First is the problem of rolling backwards. This is solved by a clever or extra clutch, but if this mechanism fails it is hard on the gears. This can be solved with good design and tolerancing.

Second is the shifting and clutching. Shifting must be done smoothly and slowly to avoid excessive peak forces on, and damages to the clutches. Hence the controllers have very slow shifting to avoid stressing the motor.

From reading this (and perhaps other) threads I recall that with the slow shifting it wasn't all that useful to shift this motor on acceleration. The motor could start in high gear and accelerate just fine. The low gear is really only for gradients as the slow shifting negates the advantage of starting in it. So the need for an automatic shifter is reduced. Especially since all automatic designs have situations where they will "hunt" and shift back and forth. It is better to choose the gear based on the conditions, just like shifting a mid drive.

Keeping in mind that this is a small motor - best suited for lighter bikes and lesser loads, and especially suitable for the small wheels of folding bikes. It is good to test at heavier loads and with larger wheels, but the best reliability will be at lower loading and with smaller wheels.

Another problem was the availability - the one early vendor was not high on my list of vendors for many reasons, with very costly shipping and essentially no recourse for problems.

Some of these issues have been resolved. Perhaps I will try one out on my folding bike and answer some of these questions. The only other viable choice I have found for this bike is a small mid-drive which brings its own problems.

Thanks to all that helped fix these issues. This is an excellent design idea for a hubmotor. We could really use larger versions of it as well, but for a small hubmotor two speeds are especially important.

Alan, IMO the "slow" shifting is not that slow. Even when shifting down going up hill, the low range comes on smoothly. And since peak torque is at startup, it's not like bogging an ICE. Even with my slower 16" wheel I've never had to put my feet down going uphill. Now, I DO sometimes shift down manually, a tad early. That's just to avoid "hunting" between low and high on longer hills. I have not read all the posts in this LONG thread, but would invite anyone who has read posts from actual users of the autoshift and have had problems with it to steer me to those posts. Thanks all.....

 

[spinningmagnets]

I'm a little mystified. If anyone wants to buy the original version of the Xiongda from Bonnie (without the 52V luna color display and high-temp shut-down), its still there...just email her.

In the summer of "peanut butter" gears for the Bafang BPM, the gears stripped when they were hot and then the rider then applied shock loads (wheelies), and builders around here were trying to see how hot they could get their BPM before it failed. As I've stated before, if you run this at 750W, its an absolutely brilliant solution, and yet...nobody seems to be mad at Xiongda for offering this product, only mad at Luna.

When Eric ran it 72V and XXXX watts, he was trying to break it, a process sometimes referred to as proof-testing. He was not telling potential customers that "you can do this too". When the motor succeeded at climbing a very steep hill, I seem to remember it ran at 860W, and it never reached thermal shut-down...

 

[craiggor]

When mine broke I was enquiring on the price of a new one,yona replayed that the new motor would be fitted with temp monitor and shut down.The date of that email was 2 Feb 2016.

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[spinningmagnets]

That's good news.

I just went back over this thread (I have a lot of time on my hands) and the first reported gear breakage is here, by docnjoj. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58490&start=650#p997607

Earlier he stated he soldered the shunt for more amps, and "at the time" the Xiongda temp sensor was noted by several posters as being no good. I will investigate further.

I continue to suggest that if you want to have a fairly small and stealthy motor while obeying the US legal power limit of 750W, this is a good option. If sourcing a kit from Luna Cycles causes you any concerns, buy direct from Xiongda.

 

[Alan B]

Correction here and above - was thinking of the wrong vendor (its' been awhile since I read this thread) and confusing with the vendor of the other small hubmotors. Ignore this vendor concern, the factory was responsive to problems:
Another problem was the availability - the one early vendor was not high on my list of vendors for many reasons, with very costly shipping and essentially no recourse for problems.

 

[2old]

SM, why would "they" consider purchasing from Luna, Xiongda or anyone else when all they want to do is trash Eric and provide business advice that he needs like another hole in the head. Personal note to Eric, "they" aren't your customers; don't feel any compunction to answer their questions.

 

[Alan B]

...
Second is the shifting and clutching. Shifting must be done smoothly and slowly to avoid excessive peak forces on, and damages to the clutches. Hence the controllers have very slow shifting to avoid stressing the motor.

From reading this (and perhaps other) threads I recall that with the slow shifting it wasn't all that useful to shift this motor on acceleration. The motor could start in high gear and accelerate just fine. The low gear is really only for gradients as the slow shifting negates the advantage of starting in it. So the need for an automatic shifter is reduced. Especially since all automatic designs have situations where they will "hunt" and shift back and forth. It is better to choose the gear based on the conditions, just like shifting a mid drive.

Alan, IMO the "slow" shifting is not that slow. Even when shifting down going up hill, the low range comes on smoothly. And since peak torque is at startup, it's not like bogging an ICE. Even with my slower 16" wheel I've never had to put my feet down going uphill. Now, I DO sometimes shift down manually, a tad early. That's just to avoid "hunting" between low and high on longer hills. I have not read all the posts in this LONG thread, but would invite anyone who has read posts from actual users of the autoshift and have had problems with it to steer me to those posts. Thanks all.....

While autoshifting while starting out on the level works, it is not really needed. On the steep gradients it is too late when it shifts down, as you experience.

The real question is whether the advantages of autoshifting are worth the problems that come with it such as hunting and unnecessary shock loading on the clutches and gears. Using manual shifting also allows a wider range of controllers to be used which may bring advantages. To shift the motor must slow down, stop, reverse, speed up and the clutch re-engages at some point. This is best done at zero speed, otherwise it "hits" the clutch and gears unnecessarily.

Your small wheels reduce the torque peak of this clutch re-engagement by almost 50%, doing it on a 26 or 29" wheel is much harder on the parts.

Speculation is fun but the only way to evaluate the changes that have been made to the Luna version of this product are to evaluate the results. The way they choose to innovate is to move fast and this requires taking some gambles. Just being in business is a gamble. Even if they told us what they changed we will only know how effective and reliable it is from actual field testing. Xiongda has been making changes to the motor, and apparently Luna has changed the cabling connectors to the excellent water resistant Higo types and mated a different controller and display. We saw some video that showed features such as display driven troubleshooting that were useful improvements. Putting the gear switching button and throttle together also makes a natural safety to reducing shifting while torque is applied.

 

[bigoilbob]

Bob, there were several controller and display changes from the manufacturer and each seemed to have a different set of issues. When you combine that with Erics thoroughly researched and improved controller and display which does not offer autoshifting at all, it would seem safe to conclude that the autoshifting on this kit is problematic.

SamD mentioned a possible solution in the works but not sure what stage he was at with that.

If so, then why can nobody point out any actual, user, complaints on shifting in this LONG thread? I have read much (admittedly not all) of it, and have yet to see any. Lube problems, yes. Clutch problems with forced reversing, yes. And "Controller and display" changes need not have ANYTHING to do with shifting. And I have enough miles to tell you that, in my case, the shifting is buttery smooth and anything but "problematic". Again, I'll take seriously any actual auto shift complaints from actual users.....

 

[bigoilbob]

And FYI, Nelson17, I looked up SamD's reference to autoshifting on the last page. He was referencing the fact that the "Luna" does not autoshift at all. Did he also have complaints about the Xiondang autoshifting? If so, please point me to that page......

 

[Green Machine]

This is a special version of this motor made for 48v and to take 20 amps ... it has imprinted from the factory "Luna Cycle 48v ". i dont have to say anything beyond that ...especially when badgered and not asked nicely i have this problem of taking orders when barked at.... everyone who knows me knows that. All these years of not having a boss has made me soft i guess.

 

[Alan B]

If you want autoshifting, buy the motor from the manufacturer with their autoshifting controller. On a hill it will shift late, and in some situations it will hunt between gears. Each time it shifts wastes time and results in lost momentum on a steep grade as well as extra wear on the clutch. It limits the controller choices to special units made with the autoshifting algorithm built in. It doesn't know the wheel diameter, load on the bike or the gradient, or how far away the next stop is. A person shifting manually can do a better job. If you run in the wrong gear it either limits your torque or your top speed. The two speeds can be considered "torque" or "speed" mode, and you pick which one based on conditions and needs.

Some people feel a need for automatic transmissions, some don't. Some prefer manual shifting. If you have enough torque then shifting is not needed at all. The low speed gear selection of this small hubmotor is really for reducing motor heat and providing adequate torque while climbing steep gradients, or moving heavy loads. But when doing these things there isn't enough torque available to switch into high gear so you just stay in low. Autoshifting is not really needed. It is more like a "low range" vs "high range" on a 4WD vehicle - a mode selection rather than a shifting situation. This differs from an ICE engine where torque peaks in the midrange, a problem that BLDC electric motors don't have.

Using the search I find some Xiongda autoshifting controllers had problems, it is mentioned in other threads but without much detail.

Any gearmotor faces wear issues on clutches and gears. Subjecting them to extra wear from unneeded autoshifting is likely to reduce the service life.

What I found in my modelling for a folding bike climbing steep gradients was that shifting allowed climbing the grade while keeping motor heat down. It was a range selection, on that gradient shifting up would result in overheating and possibly stalling. You had to select low gear and stay there.

In any case Luna chose to use a different controller and stick to manual shifting. Looking forward to field test results to see how well it works. Hopefully someone with an autoshift controller will do actual comparison testing.

 

[Ozzzz]

I'm almost certain, thought it was mentioned in my long string of annoying questions to her but must be one of the other discussions (not on this site) that Bonnie said the primary failure they have noted was in fact very likely caused by shifting too late in manual mode (on hills). Not reversing or anything specifically due to lubricant. This suggests there are a lot more failures than noted here but that there are also obviously many times more sold than can be envisaged simply from here? And highlights the importance of autoshift in less careful hands? (may be of interest for those that do some research).