2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

[knutselmaaster]

Just finished my first build with the two speed!
It is raining so I just took it out for a really short spin, but WOW!
The torque over the whole speed range is just amazing!
I can't wait to take this baby out for a long ride...

 

[menvert]

I am about 3500k on mine now after the gear replace at 2500, it is still sluggish and using more batetry than it should since my rebuild.

So I pulled it apart and regreased it again on the weekend, I had noticed that the Sun gear doesnt move very freely, basically it has too much thick grease and it simply can't deal with it as it has a huge surface area and minimal gap where it joins to it's clutch mechanism. Keep in mind that when in high gear this gear needs to constantly spin freely and any friction it has will add to motor load.

So I flushed it and the whole clutch out and filled it back generously with Wet PTFE lube, which is very thin.

Today's ride looks to be a success, I am getting 10-15% more battery life (back to pre-gear replacement levels) and it even seems to free-wheel better.

I also verified that the main drive-side outer-most bearing has gone bad, it has a flat spot or something which I can even feel spinning it with my finger, so I will have to replace that soon enough.

p5=8 is working great for a 12s 16000 HK lipo pack too, I rode it to 3.5v/cell on weekend and the battery guage reads as empty, but not yet flashing at that point, and the 1/2 way point is a bit premature but close enough.

EDIT: I really should have gotten the bearing measurements, bit hard now...

 

[docnjoj]

My newly rebuilt 2-speed has a bit less than 100 miles one it and is running fine. I used S/M's suggestion to grease with High-temp disk brake wheel bearing grease and the motor seems to run fine. It still locks up when it stops, and the bike cannot be rolled back. This may be the cause of the Sun gears breaking? I am now very careful attempting to roll the bike back. We shall see but, so far, success. Outside wheel bearing seemed a bit rough but motor spins freely when off the ground.
otherDoc

 

[knutselmaaster]

Today I have done a long ride on my first 2 speed build.
This motor is performing very good, it is amazing how much traction it has, in every circumstance I threw at it.
I got carried away by the fun of the ride and gave it quite a hard treatment with rough single-track and steep off-road climbs.
It took everything I gave, mashed it to pieces and asked for more.
I almost never had as much fun on or in any vehicle as today on my "youngster build".
The motor is really quiet most of the time, only high in the low gear I get some resonance.
I mistreated it a bit, as I need to handle customers that ask for guarantee I had to slightly pass the limit of reasonable to be sure of my words, and it doesn't seem to have bothered the motor in any way.
I won't keep mistreating it, now is the time for (a lot) of kilometers.
Let's see what it has to say after a few thousand kilometers of normal use.

I did have the clacking sound when rolling backward and indeed it is loud and feels mechanical and nasty.
But as bikes get pushed backwards all the time it will have to happen so let's see if anything breaks or wears over time.

(edit: I don't want it to break but I need to know if it can handle "ignorant users" to be sure that I will use it for a future product...)

 

[menvert]

Yep, I think it's a great unit, so nice being able to shift to L and power up any hill
I have recently been getting the roll back issue too, but I didn't originally, I have to put it in H and accelerate very slightly for it to release and freewheel backwards again.

 

[docnjoj]

I do have concerns about the lack of rollback. The way it seems to happen is that the clutch locks in the last gear used. In my case it is usually either Auto or High, rarely low. High Sun gear is the one that has broken 2x. I don't think that is a coincidence. I will be careful with the rollback, but it think you somehow have to over ride the clutch to move it backwards. That could be a problem, especially if the trike is facing a wall, like it ends up in my house..
otherDoc

 

[knutselmaaster]

Yup, like I said, not rolling backwards is not an option.
Even having to think of switching to low when parking is not really acceptable in my opinion.
I cannot imagine that rolling backward is the cause of your troubles, as everyone does that and you're the only one having the problem for the moment, docnjoj

 

[knutselmaaster]

Omg!
Now I know what you mean!
It just happened to me too.
No way to roll backwards, I pushed with some force but not my whole weight and still it didn't move.
The motor keeps engaged, freewheeling forward makes the motor turn with the wheel.
I put it in H, and let pedestrian mode on for a short instant and clack! it was unblocked.
It hasn't moved forward, I already let go of the accelerator before it got moving.

 

[ktmede]

My wheels usually lock up when I push the bikes backwards out of the shed.
The shed is about 5 inch higher then the yard, and as soon as the front wheel drops down the wheel locks up, but it is only temporarily.
The only other time I noticed a lock-up was after I was going up a steep hill in L and stopping at the top. When I wanted to continue I couldn't push it backward. To un-lock it, I switch to H, lifted the front wheel and turned the throttle ones.
I do most of the riding in PAS 1-3 and H - except when I go up steep hills, then I switch to L. I always don't paddle for a couple of seconds when I manually switch between H and L to give it sufficient time t stop spinning first.
One bike has about 2000km and the other one about 1000km. No other issues with them.

 

[ktmede]

I'm about to do another conversion. This time with disc brake, but didn't decide on front or rear yet.
From Bonnie, I learned, that they offer a new cassette version of the motor now.
Unfortunately it is 155 mm wide.
I had no problem spreading the steel forks of my first 2 bikes by about 5 mm, but spreading the rear frame of a expensive aluminum frame from 135 to probably 160 to get the motor in seems a bit much.
Has anyone used this new 155 mm wide cassette version already.
What experience / recommendations do people have with spreading an aluminum frame (w/ disc brake) by 20 to 25 mm?
Thanks
Ed

 

[d8veh]

My first 48v motor rolled back fine in either high or low. Both of my 36v ones rolled back OK as long as I stopped in high gear. My new 48v does the clacking when I roll it back in high gear. They all look the same inside.

I'm thinking that this jamming could be related to gear failures.

 

[knutselmaaster]

I have done some intensive start/stop testing, and I've been driving around the gear change speed each time when I stopped.
It is quite easy to reproduce.
When it gets stuck and you start cycling, you are actually doing regen, the motor seems to wait until you reach some speed to change gear and unlock.
It is quite hard to pedal but it unlocks all by itself (when left to auto) and it doesnt sound to be harmful.

Edit:
When I come to think of it, just pushing the throttle in stead of peddling would make it effortless to gain speed to 6km, it should unlock then when you start peddling....
I will try later.

 

[menvert]

Has anyone used this new 155 mm wide cassette version already.
What experience / recommendations do people have with spreading an aluminum frame (w/ disc brake) by 20 to 25 mm?
Thanks
Ed

Well the standard disc version is 145 if I recall, and to fit the 7 speed I had to stretch to about 148 on my alloy hybrid frame, and that was very easy, not so hard to take out and put wheel back...

 

[knutselmaaster]

Yes, similar experience here.

I also have to add that, contrarily to my primary opinion, I don't see the use for that much gears anymore.
The motor is so powerful that it makes me shift 2 by 2, on a 7 speed freewheel...

 

[docnjoj]

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way but it seems to me that the clutch is energised by the controller with power on. Should it not then be freewheel when the battery is disconnected?
otherDoc

 

[knutselmaaster]

If I understand the design well, it is the hélicoïdal form and the reversing rotation that force the clutch, mechanically, in position.
It remains blocked when turned off, which basically comes down to the same as no throttle given in this case, hence 0V
Once the gear is in place, it can only desingage by changing rotation direction.

 

[ktmede]

Yes, similar experience here.

I also have to add that, contrarily to my primary opinion, I don't see the use for that much gears anymore.
The motor is so powerful that it makes me shift 2 by 2, on a 7 speed freewheel...

I agree, a 7 speed freewheel (21 gears total) is probably enough - especially if you use a higher PAS level or even go with the throttle.
The main reason for me to look for a cassette version of the motor was the ease of conversion - I have a 9 gear one right now on the bike I want to convert.
The two lower prio reasons are
a) I still like to pedal and get exercise (with motor off or in PAS 1) - at least some time and prefer to keep the gearing / difference between individual gears
b) And in case I want to use it for a longer period w/o motor, I just switch the wheels and remove the battery and end up the the original bike + probably a pound of cables/controller ...

Spreading the aluminum frame to 155 seems too risky to me.
To only have to spread it to 140 mm, I would have to use a 6/7 speed (change derailleur/shifter) and get a new brake (current frame has only disc brake mounts)
This leaves me again with a front wheel conversion. Unfortunately the bike has shocks and only mounts for disc brakes.
So I probably buy a rigid steel fork with disc mounts (to avoid changing the hydraulic disc brakes to v-brakes) and bend that fork to 110 mm.
Does anyone have a suggestion for a good fork (700c to correct a 65 mm suspension) which has disk and canti studs?

Thanks

 

[knutselmaaster]

If you guide your derailleur wire the other way around the screw where you fix it with (so fix it above instead of under the screw) it gets awfully close to perfection, fiddle around a bit to find the right position for your setup.
I managed to get a 9 speed Deore shifter and a modolo race shifter to work perfectly (put the empty 2 speeds above the biggest sprocket to be able to block them out) on 7 speed freewheels this way.
You can also order a 8 speed freewheel for even better compatibility and just a bit more stretching

 

[knutselmaaster]

Pic!

 

[ktmede]

Thanks for your suggestion. Let me see if I understand why you were routing the derailleur cable.
Is it, because you want to change (increase) the distance one "click" on the shifter moves the derailleur; so it moves far enough to go to the next sprocket - assuming the sprockets are further apart on a 7 speed freewheel then they are on a 9/10 speed cassette - am I correct or did I miss your point?
Would I need a different chain / front cranks?

 

[knutselmaaster]

Yes, by changing the routing you adapt the ratio shifter move \ derailleur move.

A new chain could be necessary but try first if it is working with the old one

 

[ktmede]

Thank you, that makes sense.

My problem is that the bike is at my vacation place and I need to order everything I need before I go there. So I can convert it the first day I arrive and enjoy it the remaining weeks of my vacation.
I just figured, that it is a 3 x 10 speed Shimano Deore XT setup on the bike, and not the 9 speed I originally thought.

Do you know if there are 7 speed freewheels with the spacing/distance between the gears of a 10 speed cassette? This way I could stay w/ the same chain, and probably only need about 140 mm /w disk.
I haven't worked with a rear wheel (free wheel) motor yet. However, if I look at the rear free wheel disk motor (total width 145mm) diagram, it is ~ 109mm wide without the freewheel installed.
That leaves me about 26mm for a freewheel, if I don't want to bend the frame at all.
How wide are those 7 speed freewheels?

 

[menvert]

This is a good reference for widths of theDNP freewheels (IE 7speed and above freewheels that also support 11t)
my 7s just needed about 3mm extra to fit in the space provided by the Freewheel Disc XD (so my torque washer is inside the frame rather than outside), so you could get 10sp and it'll be an additional 4mm but shifter and chain thickness will be the same.

BTW I purchased the DNP 7sp direct from XD with my motor, they may have the DNP 10sp too.

Also some detailed pics of the freewheel and torque washer on my original build thread may give you and idea of what I mean and how it looks stretched around 15mm

Also if you get a DNP freewheel I suggest you buy the remover tool before you need it too... it was a pain for me waiting a week or 2 for the remover tool, when I needed it (it it longer so it goe in past the extended 11 & 12t and allows for the thicker axel that ebikes have)

 

[ktmede]

Thanks for those links. I was looking a few times at your original build thread already.

So I guess I have a couple of options:
A) Front motor
1. Buy a steel fork with v-brake mounts and change the front brake.
2. Buy a steel fork and widen it by about 10 to 12 mm to keep a disc brake
B. Rear free wheel version
1. Use the 7 speed DNP (36mm) requiring a widening the rear frame by 12 mm to 147 mm (according to menvert's build)
2. Use the 10 speed DNP (40 mm) requiring a widening to by 16 mm to 151 mm
C) Rear cassette wheel version
1. According to the information from Bonnie needs 155 mm, requiring 20 mm widening

Does this mean the mount for the cassette is 4 mm wider then the free wheel mount - given the gears take up the same space - or did I get the numbers wrong somewhere along the line?

So what is less risky
A)2. spreading the front fork by 12 mm (would try to buy a rigid steel instead of aluminum suspension fork)
OR
B)2. spreading the rear frame (aluminum) by 16 mm

 

[menvert]

Maybe our calculations are out, I'd have guessed the cassette version would be the same total width as a 8-10s Freewheel version, it would be nice if they can send the schematic (like we have on page 1 or 2 of the thread)

With my old KMart alloy, I probably had the rear stretched (but not bent) to 160mm and I used it for about 5 years, it was super horrible to change a tube though, which is why I made a special bolt to hold the frame apart, which on my current bike isn't really necessary...

I think if your real goal was easy on-the-fly conversion between conventional and ebike, then front steel disk is the ideal option.

Alloy can bend fine once or twice but if you have to keep bending or stretching it back for the conventional wheel it might get weak? after a few swaps between the widths... wheras steel should be fine with it.
Also front forks are so much easier to remove the wheel than trying to get wheel + freewheel out from the disk caliper and derailler each time, not something you want to have to do in the field.

The only other consideration is that with the disk caliper, due to the slight angle change you may have to adjust it each time, though you said hydraulic right? so I think they will self adjust, but maybe the pads wont make perfect contact initially.