2010 Hubmotor meltoff

[wineboyrider]

I'd love to test my cyclone setup on that hill. Once I get some cooling fins on it. The nice thing about the cyclone is that it shuts itself down when it reaches a certain temp.?? so it won't self destruct. The gearbox gets real hot though on some climbs around here. The climb from Tularosa to Apache summit is pretty similar to your climb isn't it. Only thing is I can't afford to fry stuff. LOL.

 

[dogman dan]

Tularosa to Apache summit is a bit bigger climb I think. Longer in miles, but some of those grades right out of Tularosa are pretty steep. Used to drive it a lot to go skiing.

 

[ngocthach1130]

don't agree with there being some limit to the ability of more humid air to transfer heat. Think about it for a minute. A radiator cooling increases from 10% humidity right up to 100%. If you don't think so, put a radiator in water and see the incredible amount of cooling it can do. A water cooled heat exchanger is a small fraction of the size of a radiator on the same motor.

I don't disagree that water cool is a good solution but i do disagree that higher humidity increase the cooling ability. The difference is water have incredible ability to soak in the calorie and evaporate into water vapor. When dealing with humidity water is already in the vapor form so it's not doing anything to cool the motor. With less humidity would make the water you spray onto the motor more readily evaporate and cool it. I would assume the same hold true for the radiator in the water creek you are speaking of. Sure the water will cool the radiator but if the humidity of the air is very high that creek will not dissipate the heat into the air very easily.

 

[amberwolf]

I wonder why the vapor works to cool the air conditioners, then? Because it most definitely does. Humid days (like today) I get colder air by several degrees out of the window unit than dry days.

Same thing for evaporative pre-cooler stages on big air conditioners....

 

[dogman dan]

This basic misunderstanding rests in the others inabilty to comprehend humidity levels below 5% . Even here, that low is not an every day thing.

When I say dry air won't cool. I mean DRY air. Not what 75% of the world considers dry, like below 20% humidity. We in NM and AZ tend to get levels that low, 5%, in late May and June. Then the baja low gets in place in July, spins a bit of humidity our way around the mountains in CA and we get humidity levels at least above 10%, and air cooling starts to work again. You guys who haven't lived in the desert for 50 years, just come out out here in June, and I double dog dare you to try to drive a WV bug non stop from El Paso to Yuma in the afternoon with no stops longer than it takes to gas up. I'll follow you with at tow truck. :lol:

Once humidity gets above 10%, the bug might make it, but in June, in below 5% humidity it will not unless the driver stops to cool off every town. This has been proven out here time and time again, and guess what? Cars with radiators suffer the same way. Do that drive in June nonstop, and you will have a good chance of needing AAA. But in July or august, you can run your AC the whole way without problems.

I would definitly agree that 15% humidity is plenty of water in the air for effective air cooling. Any more than that may not make much difference, untill you reach the point where you are moving through fog, which is really water cooling as actual water drops are hitting the hot surface.

As for the window refrigerated AC units, one of the energy mizer features they have in todays models is a spinner on the fan that cools the condenser. As the unit runs, the evaporator gets dew on it, which runs down the bottom of the pan to the outside, where the spinner flicks it on to the condenser, water cooling it and making it much much more efficient.

But in dry air, like 5%, there is no humidity in the house to form dew on the evaporator, no water for the spinner to flick onto the condenser, and the AC works for crap. Same thing happens to the car AC, in June, it may just cause the car to overheat eventually since the radiator can't cool the freon, or the water in your engine very well in the dry air. That's WHY you hung that water bag in front of the radiator of the car to drive to Yuma in the old days! To put some humidity into the air hitting the radiator.

When it's super hot, I'll often pop out to the window AC units on my house and hose em down about 3:00PM and enjoy lots cooler air coming out of them for the next 30 min. When it's super dry that trick works great. On a really bad scorcher, I may just put the sprinkler on the dang AC, and get one room cool. I use the window units since cooling the entire house is for stupid people or the rich. I also have swamp cooling, but it is set for 82 F, and is only for keeping the house cool enough for dogs and not coming home to a house that is 100F inside.

 

[wineboyrider]

I have a whole house a/c, but bought a cheap $100 swamp cooler and run it at night. The night time temperatures really help the swamp cool better at night. Swamp coolers are good for 20 degrees below ambient temperature, so when it's freaking 100f outside the inside of your house is 80F plus the humidity makes it feel hotter. Kind of the opposite the way you run it dogman, but it works for me. Plus my electric bill loves the swamp cooler trick as it uses as much electricity as a fan. Plus I also think it's nice in the morning and then in the rest of the day I turn the a/c to 80 and then helps dry the air out inside so that when I turn the swamp cooler at night it's dry as a bone in the house. What Dogman say's about vw's is right though (I've owned a bug and a karmann ghia), but I always added an oil cooler to help the engine a bit. Anyone who has ridden air cooled motorcycles in our climate knows exactly what he is talking about. Anyways my cyclone motor gets really hot this time of year really easy and I need to get some cooling fins on it. Another idea I had was to wrap some copper 1/8" line around the motor and fill it with a little water to aid in cooling.. What do you think guys good idea or not?

 

[wineboyrider]

Just to add to Dogmans windex comments I used to cool my honda xl 100 (air cooled single) street/dirt bike with a water bottle in the summer. I used to stop at a stream between Tularosa and Alamogordo and splash water on it a little bit to help cool it down and believe me when the motor is under your crotch you can feel it get hot. Harley Davidson's will start spitting oil like you wouldn't believe in this type of summertime weather as they get hotter than hell sitting in traffic lol! Funny thing is though the rider feels cool as a cucumber rolling down the street with that 7% humidity and sweat glands cools the body off fast. When I have relatives over from the old country ( Germany) I remind them that too drink a lot more water. If I can get my cyclone to cool off by about 15 more degrees I think I'll be in great shape rolling down the rode with a nice dry New Mexico 100F breeze

 

[dogman dan]

Any kind of additional cooling fins would help I bet.

When the City of Las Cruces started jacking up the water rates we began using less swamp cooler and more refrig. Basicly now in LC you get to choose swamp coolers or a yard. One of them keeps you in a rate bracket that gives you a $40 a month water bill. But do both and you go up one tier on the rates, and you go straight to the $100 water bill, plus the $30 or so for the swamper fan. So some calculations gave me two choices that cost about the same. Humid muggy 80 degree house or lower humidity 75 degree house that could have one room cold enough to chill beer. So we still have both kinds of coolers, and tend to run the swamper at dawn for 30-40 min, and then have it set so the house doesn't fry the rest of the day. Most days it never turns back on. They we run the window ac's only in the room we are in, rarely having more than two running. In the end we have a low water bill even though we have a lawn, and the electric bill is not severe either. Insulating the attic better really helped the window coolers, in a poorly insulated house the swampers may still work better.

 

[wineboyrider]

It's nice to have both options. I have a well for landscaping and vineyards, city water for the house, since I don't use all my allotted city water I burn a little on the swamper and dump the bleed off into the swimming pool. The huge trees I have use water too, but I love them and the shade they bring. With a full house of 4 it doesn't make much sense to cool different rooms. beer is good on a hot day! Wine is good with dinner! 8)

 

[amberwolf]

In my very sleepy state of the moment, I am picturing a "waterbag" for hubmotors, that would encircle it as a donut between the spoke flanges, and use centrifugal force to generate pressure to force water out mister tubes that exit the outer circumference, and then curve around to the sides near the axle.

I'm not sure there is a way to actually create enough pressure for this to work, and it might require an electric pump instead, which complicates the whole thing too much.

Plus the weight of the water will increase the energy needed to start the wheel moving, etc.

Plus the wheel would have to be unlaced on one side to install it.

Although...a scooter innertube for a really small wheel could be modified to have those mister tubes integrated into the former tread-side surface, and it could be refilled via the schraeder valve, with the water pressure inside it compressed by the rubber walls providing the misting force. This might be worth pursuing....

I will probably come home from work tomorrow, read this post, and realize how stupid it is.

 

[dogman dan]

The Aotema motor is acting up now, I may have done some damage to it too.

But with close to 3000 miles on the thing, I wouldn't call it an early problem. It ran great till I started racing it, and trying to kill it on a hill.

 

[wineboyrider]

In my very sleepy state of the moment, I am picturing a "waterbag" for hubmotors, that would encircle it as a donut between the spoke flanges, and use centrifugal force to generate pressure to force water out mister tubes that exit the outer circumference, and then curve around to the sides near the axle.

The cyclone doesn't spin around so I am thinking I am going to try my copper tubing filled with water idea. The copper tube should adsorb heat from the motor and the water inside should evaporate and cool it very efficiently. I would only need to refill the tube occasionally. Good idea though with the scooter tube.
What about fins on a hub motor? Anyone on ES tried them?

 

[wineboyrider]

In my very sleepy state of the moment, I am picturing a "waterbag" for hubmotors, that would encircle it as a donut between the spoke flanges, and use centrifugal force to generate pressure to force water out mister tubes that exit the outer circumference, and then curve around to the sides near the axle.

The cyclone doesn't spin around so I am thinking I am going to try my copper tubing filled with water idea. The copper tube should adsorb heat from the motor and the water inside should evaporate and cool it very efficiently. I would only need to refill the tube occasionally. Good idea though with the scooter tube.
What about fins on a hub motor? Anyone on ES tried them?

 

[dogman dan]

I've often thought that more fins like the spoke flanges would be good, but then you'd have to make the spoke flanges longer to be able to lace the spokes. If you oriented fins the other way, they'd catch wind like paddles. Some fins on the covers would be nice, but clearance is often pretty tight to begin with.

Bigger hubs and bearings though, would allow integrated tourqe arms, as well as large holes for big wires and water cooling tubes. Water cooling a cyclone should work, though. Even if all it did was increase the thermal lag, that gives you more ride.

 

[wineboyrider]

Got my Ebikekit geared hub motor running on my wives Walmart Roadmaster. The kit is really good so far, but I gotta find a better bicycle. The cyclone is acting up, lot's of noise from the planetary gear box. Waiting on Lyen to see if he can do something with them. I usually only ride about 6 miles a day so I should have bought a direct drive a long time ago. I think they are a lot less maintenance? than my cyclone setup. When the cyclone is running it rolls down the highway, but it sure takes a lot of upkeep..more than I have time for right now. I am looking for good cruiser bike now to install my geared Hub motor on something sturdy and simple. Later on down the road I am looking at either a nine continent or a Aotema what do you think Dogman?

 

[dogman dan]

The 9c's for sure. Because you do have a big hill, the 9c 9x7 will climb better. At 48v it will go 27 mph, which is plenty. Come to Cruces if you want to test ride one.

 

[wineboyrider]

Got this ebikekit geared motor kit up and running!
How do you think it would do on your meltoff?
I am running on 36v, but if I had 48v ping I wonder what would happen too it?
Is it like a bafang motor or what is it like?

 

[dogman dan]

Generally gearmotors shed thier heat a bit slower than direct drives. Partly because the hot parts don't directly contact the air, and partly because they have less area to radiate. So I'd keep it at 36v, and monitor the temp of the axle stub when climbing big hills. I'd like to come out and ride it, but I'm way too busy for the next few weekends. The motor is said to be better than a bafang, but I couldn't judge that either, I've never rode a bafang.

 

[Lori]

The hub motor meatoff was very helpful. I am the market for a new motor & I am leaning toward the 9 C 6 x10 motor.

Several months ago I purchased 2 Cyclone Motor Kits: a 1200 W & a 900W. I burned up my controller & then maybe 10 rides later my motor with the 1200W system. The company replaced the controller & motor, but I don’t have confidence in the systems & feel that they are very vulnerable to breakage. This puts me in the market for one new motor now & probably another once I see how my new one performs.
Is it worth trying to use the controller, batteries, throttles that I have?? The brand is Headline BLDC
a. Model: HDEV60005, DC 36V 20A(900 W system)
b. Model HDEV1K501, DC 48 V+- 5% 35 A(1200W system)
2. I am also wondering if I can use the batteries I have?
a. 36 Volt
b 48 Volt.
If it is a bad idea to use my old controller & throttle, which controllers would you recommend. I would hope to someday put more battery on the bike to increase the power.
Thanks Lori & Carl's Bad Car

 

[dogman dan]

Unfortunately the 6x10 motor is not being imported to the US at this time. It might be avaliable in europe though.

The typical 2807 motor (9x7) is avaliable and still does very well climbing steep hills and handling the heat. I'm about to race one with a 3200 watt 100v setup, and I'm not too worried about frying it. All the 9c motors seem to be able to shed their heat pretty good when they get hot. The big covers make a good radiator I guess.

Get a controller for it from the vendor. You will avoid a lot of hassle trying to dope out the halls and phase wire sequences buying a plug and play controller. Worth the money, and you'll have a controller matched to the motor. Same thing with the throttle, but that is pretty easy to figure out if you wan to use the old one.

The typical infineon 20-25 amp controller that comes with the motor kits works with either 36v or 48v.

 

[torker]

Welcome to the forum Lori. You found the right guy to ask. Dogman knows what 9c and others can take in the heat/hills.

 

[dogman dan]

Thanks moderators.

 

[wineboyrider]

Lori wrot:
Several months ago I purchased 2 Cyclone Motor Kits: a 1200 W & a 900W. I burned up my controller & then maybe 10 rides later my motor with the 1200W system. The company replaced the controller & motor, but I don’t have confidence in the systems & feel that they are very vulnerable to breakage. This puts me in the market for one new motor now & probably another once I see how my new one performs.

The motor was originally designed for 24v and then the company just added external controllers and upping the voltage. I think if we ran them on strict 24v they would last a lot longer, but start spinning that mofo at 35 amps plus and you start shedding planetary gears
Works great for a while, but the urge to gun it is there and when you do metal sounds..... :|
Dogman almost got to ride my cyclone setup, but it pooped out the day we were going to ride it????
I have a 9c DD with the high speed winding. I have mega hills too, but usually ride it on the flats for commuting.

 

[kentlim26]

Cyclone kits is really hard to wins many ebike choice. their controller can't work well. it needs somebody to come out a new controller to replace them. their motors will very quickly gets really hot to touch in mins. How come it blow easily? maybe the motor are a controller Blower. i don't know and i think i won't be repairing my cyclone , right now having a hub motor is easy for my mind to have some peaceful riding. some more i don't have much time, troubleshooting the faults and how it comes... it will be a long way to sort out.

hub motor is my most preferred choice for ebikes.

cheers
kentlim

 

[dogman dan]

My theory on cyclones is the rider doesn't always select the proper gear. So just like with a motocycle or car, it can be rough on it if you push too hard in too tall a gear. Same can be said for normal riding with lots of current. Just going to shorten the duty cycle.

In any case, hills are always hard and will often heat up motors. In the right gear though, chain drive could get up a hill much better than any hubmotor.

That day I went riding with Wineboyrider we took my best climber (9 continent 6x10) up a looooong 10% grade. and then rode some trails that were twice as steep. That motor got nice and hot! Right now I'm replacing the halls on it. I wonder why? It's not too fried inside, but the windings have that nice toasty color on em for sure.