2011 Chopper Project Come build with me!!

[TheKraftyRhino]

Well The time has come and I surely want the feedback and input of ES members on this build I will express my desires and change this post as things change. I am going to try and keep the Photos @ the Bottom of the post as I add them so as not to clog the important information. @ this time I have a Schwinn Meridian Stock with an Aotema Front hub from http://www.hightekbikes.com Running stock controller on 36v 12ah SLA. I can't tell you how trouble free and reliable this kit has been for 2 years. Although it is a bulky motor and with this new project it just may not work as I want a Springer Front End and I don't really want to take the frame and have it welded on to make things fit.

CONCEPT

Frame:
Z1 STRETCH Cruiser frame with tank BLACK , 26" BLACK straight springer fork from http://www.bicycledesigner.com
The Frame is Ordered but I am waiting on a 2 week lead time to have it delivered.

Manual Drive Train:
TBD Most likely Single 44t front sprocket with 5-7 speed rear end on a Hub motor

Hub Motor/Controller Rear:
I desire a Multi gear Rear Hub motor with Disk Breaking I need something with low end torque But I want something that has a top end of 25-30MPH
Would like a 48V system for the power. Concept Build will use 4x 21ah SLA That I have already and change to Pings once the bugs are ironed out.
There is a Strong Desire to have 2.5-3" rear rim and fat tires to make it look chopper like. The Frame has 4.5" fork spacing but until it gets here I am unsure of the clearance further up the frame.



Build History
1-29-2011 Ordered the Frame From http://www.bicycledesigner.com Z1 STRETCH Cruiser frame with tank BLACK , 26" BLACK straight springer fork


FRAME IMAGE

Out of boredom I hacked this image in photoshop
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=293277&id=686344733&l=46b37770b1

 

[TheKraftyRhino]

Hub Motor/Controller Rear:

As I said in the 1st post I have had an Aotema Front Hub from Highteckbikes for a couple years. But the do not offer a rear motor with Disk braking. So lets iron this one out 1st.

I would like something with good low end power rear breaking and multi speed gearing. I could lace or have the rear laced onto a 2.5 or 3" rime with fat tires. This part of the project will surly be the most exspensive aside from the ping battery upgrades but I don't want so be spending $1000 on a hub motor/controller.

 

[oldpiper]

KR, if you are planning to use Ping batts "once the bugs are ironed out," why not get them now, instead of using SLAs and then changing? They won't be the same size or (especially) weight, so you'll have to mount them differently (more holes in the frame) and get used to the bike riding differently, and probably won't be able to sell the SLAs for anything more than a McD meal or so.

BTW, I have an AmpedBikes hubmotor and it is set up with holes for a disk brake (although I don't have a disk yet).

Cameron

 

[TheKraftyRhino]

KR, if you are planning to use Ping batts "once the bugs are ironed out," why not get them now, instead of using SLAs and then changing?

Well the main reason is I already have 4 or the 21ah SLA sitting brand new in the corner I have never used. Second the price on the pings in the ~20ah range will set the project back till June.

How do you like the Amped Bikes motor? I see the addvert them @ 500-750w on 36v. My biggest want is a little more power as the bike will be pulling a trailer @ times. My Aotema from Highteckbikes runs great on the Trike @ 48v pushing to ~30MPH on flat roads. But it lacks low end torque badly. High end is ok but I would be happy going 24mph if I had a little more low end torque when pulling the trailers.

Have you or do you know if the controllers from Amped Bikes will run @ 48V on 21ah pack? it is a nice looking kit.

EDIT: Read on the Amped site there controller will take 36-60volts real question now is how does upping the Volts effect the motor? The Aotema has a noticeable gain in power and high end just upping the voltage.

 

[oldpiper]

I like my AmpedBikes motor, I believe LI-ghtcycle here is running his on 48V, you'll probably hear from him shortly. It won't have any problem at that voltage, or probably quite a bit higher. I believe the stock AB controller will run @ 48V - as Danny (AB) says, "it'll void the warranty," but from what I've read, you shouldn't have any problem, controllers are pretty cheap, anyway (they're always being discussed somewhere on these boards).

IMHO, your taking off problem on your trike isn't the motor, but the batteries going to it. SLAs can't kick out many amps for any length of time before the voltage sags. Are the batts on that the ones you've had for 1-2 years? If so, you might not have anywhere near 21Ah left in them, and you're getting sag at the start. IIWY, since it is a trike, you might not have any balance problems putting your extra batts on it in parallel, and I'd try that to see it it improves your speed off the mark (It shouldn't have any effect on top speed).

Cameron

 

[TheKraftyRhino]

I replace the SLA every spring on the Trike. The Aotema motor is very robust but it seams to be wound fast and lack low end power while towing the trailer. I have upgraded it to 48Volts and it gets more top end and a bit more torque but never seams to get moving very well <8mph without some manpower. Ping batts was on the slate for spring time but the wife uses that thing more then I do and she don't seam to mind how it preforms. The Chopper is my new project for me exclusively. My main concerns was that the trike is aluminum framed and the chopper is steel as it is 58" ling from rear to head tube. Surely a bit more heavy then that trike. I just don't want to loose any performance I am use to as I change to my own bike and a rear kit I am not accustomed to.

 

[oldpiper]

Well, I've got 36V SLA on my bike now and I have to pedal like mad for the first 100 ft or so off the light (with assist) to get going, but will be moving to NiCad next week (hopefully, depending on the UPS truck). I'll let you know how much of a difference the battery type makes. NiCads aren't anywhere as good as LiFePO4 or Lipo (or, I guess even NiMH), but they should be a good sight better than SLA (and the price was right). I figure that if I can keep to within about 2-3 generations of "best" batteries, I might be able to get really good deals, and that way I can see just how much better each one is than the previous (like buying a 5-yr old Mercedes every 5-8 years, they're still awesome, but don't cost $80K) and get that EV grin multiple times instead of just once in a blue moon, when I can afford the best.

Cameron

 

[dogman dan]

The aotema is a fast winding. What top speed are you looking for at 48v. You might want to look at 9 continent 8x8 winding in Methods for sale ad. About two jumps slower winding, so about 20-25 mph at 48v. Lots better for uphill or grinding with a trailer. The usual windings of dd humbotors tend to be a bit faster, like the 9x7 that runs 27mph on 48v.

 

[TheKraftyRhino]

I tell ya I realy love the Aotema! I hate to go away from something that I know works even with the minor performance issue I have @ low speed. I just got an email back from Hightechbike and according to them the Aotema is rated to 72 volts but the sensorless feedback is not reliable over 50Volts. They offer a programmable controller now that they will set for free or $30 for the home programing software and hook ups. They assured me setting it up @ 50Volts 35 Amps would solve all my issues. My only concern is the front forks I want for it. Its a real fear to spin a motor @ speed and jack myself up flying off my bike @ 25+mph. I looked @ all the suggestions and its down to 2 picks @ this point.

Hightechbikes Front Aotema with High power programmable controller

or

Amped bikes rear/front

One good question is SLA batteries @21ah = 68 LBS and Ping 48volt 20Ah is like under 17 LBS I think

With a price gap of $140 or $540

What am I getting for the extra $400 in battery?

 

[torker]

In the long run. If you don't abuse it. You should get about 1500 more recharge cycles than sla. Money in your pocket after a couple years. I'm with Dogman , I would check out the 9C 8x8 Methods has for sale and IF it isn't quite enough get a controller that will output 30 amps or so.

 

[RallySTX]

And stick with a rear hub whatever you buy. The springer forks aren't designed for the stress from a hub motor. The pivot points, length of the tubes, and undamped design are all against you. Even if you get one with steel front dropouts, you risk pulling thr front wheel out from under the bike on every turn that isn't dry clean asphalt. The wider the rim, the less air will get to the motor, the more inertia it will have to deal with, the more power it will take to get and keep it rolling. the flipside, better balance, contact patch, looks, and with the right rim build better load capacity. You will need dual steel tourqe arms, 48 volts minimum, disk brakes, 12g spokes, and a 40 amp controller in the wind stream. Building an Echopper will not be easy, but nothing else compares to it, and in my opinion, it's worth the work! Ebikes are cool, but, Echoppers Rule!
Brian L.

 

[TheKraftyRhino]

Yea, just what I figured on the springer front end. My only other option was a Triple tree front end to hold the front hub. The big issue is breaking. With a rear hub I am adding issues to my frame. You say double torque arm well shit the frame is not disk brake ready so I also need a disk brake adapter tab on the axle. I don't think I will have that much axle to use. And I cant weld since I live in an apartment and don't own a welder. When this all started I expected something I could toss together and ride now the more we talk the more I think this is going to be a long drawn out project.But that's the point of making this thread to make as few misconceptions and mistakes as possible to save me money and time.

On the springer front end I looks nice but I am afraid with my ultimate goal being as few frame mods as possible and working in my budget range for V 1.0 of this build I may go with another front end and slap on an Aotema Front hub or the Amped bikes front kit. This will allow me to use my existing 26x 1.75" rear coaster Wheel and 2.125 tires. If I use the triple Tree forks I can get the disk brakes on now with the Amped bikes disk brake hub. and that will allow me to play with the rear and at least still have front brakes. Who know maybe V 2.0 will have dual hubs lol. Let me think about it while I sleep tonight.

EDIT: Here is an idea What about the Amped Bikes Rear Hub with disk brake option Running on 48volt 15ah Pingbattery.com LifePo4 Batteries. Triple Tree Front Forks with Disk Breaks. No rear Brakes for now. I can get the local Welding school or a shop to weld on a rear disk caliper mounts on in 4 weeks when they start new classes. Since Front breaks are the most important. Do you think I could get away with just front breaks if I don't go to fast until I can get something worked out with the rear?

 

[RallySTX]

Well, you just made my night! First, DON'T WORRY, that's what we're here for, to solve issues. There are disk brake caliper mounts out there that drop on the axle. No need for modding the frame until you are ready. Echoppers are, in my opinion, the hardest ebike to build. Since most kit makers build for mountain bikes or comfort bikes, most of the stuff we need has to be custom made or tweaked somehow. I'm not the expert here, just another newb looking for an answer. I could write a book about what I learned from this site. We can get right down to brass tacks once you post some measurements. What size are the wheels you can mount to the bike? 20, 24, 26, ETC. What is the distance between the dropouts? How thick are they? When you say triple tree front end, did you mean one piece fork tubes, one on each side? Like the bottom pic in my sig? I live in an appartment too, so I feel your pain dude. Me, I gotta carry it down and up a flight of stairs to ride it. My living room resembles a bike shop! I have three bikes here. Never forget, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it! You can get by with just front brakes, or the first option with the front hub, on a one piece steel fork with disk brake, and rear coaster brake. Just remember the weak brakes when riding, and don't let yourself get into a tight spot, you can't get out of. That rear coaster brake may start to fade, or get grabby at higher speeds, so watch it1 Also, the front wheel will not have much weight over it due to the long forks, so don't ask too much from it. With a fat rear tire and most of the weight near it, that's where your brakes are. The front will slide before the back does. Get some rear brakes on as soon as you can. I just posted a request for a nice rear hub for my Spoiler, it's costing $250. Bedtime for me. I'll look for you here tomorrow my good man.
Brian L.

P.S. After looking closely at your drawing I see an issue. It apears that your rear dropouts are too narrow for anything but a front hub. So unless you don't plan on pedaling at all, you have two options. Stick to the front hub mounted in front idea, or somehow widen the rear dropouts. The drawing shows 4.5 inches from side to side, and 15 inches from the dropout to the cross member. this translates I think to a factory 26 inch rear wheel? That's good for your speed options. But the 4.5 inch width is too narrow for all but front hubs. You can mount one in the back but it will not have a freewheel, unless you turn it arround and wire it up to go backwards. This is actually possible with some models, but I have no idea if the threads for a spin on rotor are the same as a freewheel. I doubt it. So unless you think you can spread those rear dropouts another inch, we have a problem. But hey, if you use steel one piece front forks, you can use a front hub with disk brake, as long as you're careful in the turns.

 

[dogman dan]

You get a chopper that doesn't handle like a lead pig for your extra money. And the battery should last for years, assuming you don't run controllers bigger than 25 amps, and don't climb huge long hills too much, or run it to 100% discharged every single ride. Theoretically batteries like the ping are the lowest cost per mile, and should last more than 10,000 miles.

One piece of advice, don't decide on the battery till you have the motor set in stone. If you don't ride the bike every day, you may want to look at lipo batteries. Especially if you ride short distances. For 5 miles riding, you can run lipo as light ats 4 pounds. That small, lipo can be pretty cheap.

Lastly, you might just slap anything on the front of that chopper to start with, so you can run your Aotema during the experimental stages. Mabye you don't need a springer fork at all, other than for looks. You could run a less expensive fork, and save $$ on the motor kit. That increases the battery budget.

 

[TheKraftyRhino]

LoL WoW man I luck out and live on the ground floor.And what use to be a dinning room off the front door we call our "garage".

See the image below for what I mean about a triple tree. It comes pre setup for disk brakes and they even offer a brake kit for it on the same site.

I just put 2 and 2 together thanks for pointing that out about the rear measurements. That's basically a beach cruiser rear end.
As for the 4 1/2 inch rear the Amped bike site says For rear kits you will need minimum of 5 3/8". So 4 1/2 to 5 3/8 is 7/8 difference meaning 7/16 in each side is needed and this is only @ the Axle. I have bent my aluminum Frame rear drop outs from 4.5 to over 5 to get a 7 speed hub in there by bending them apart to ~ 6.25 inches and letting it relax back to over 5. I'm sure I stressed the frame but it has been going strong for 5 years. it surely will not allow for anything much bigger then a 2.125 tire though. "I ASSUME I CAN DO THE SAME TO A STEEL FRAME"" Piss on me if it don't work then I have a rear hub motor I can't use. Or I am off to the local weld shop if I can find one and a pocket of cash to have the rear end modded to take a hub motor and a 3.5 fatty tire lol.

I live off Disability and that's not enough to support my wife and 3 kids and still be able to afford Gas, Car keep up, and Insurance. As a matter of fact to be honest with you the reason we use E-bikes is the wife lost lost license for driving without insurance. And with only the use of my index and thumb on my left hand and 40% mobility in my legs I would have to jump thru hoops to get a license. Ironically my issues come from a motor cycle wreck that led to a neck and lower back fracture. Amazing I can even walk @ all and they say I should have been a paraplegic. It kinda sux when it rains/snows here in Ohio but believe it or not you get use to it. My wife has even got use to the extra cash around the house and she is considering not getting a Dino burner even when we can. We have freed up $800 a month in our house not having a car. What would YOU do with $200 more a week? lol. That's why I have Trailers. One serves as a Grocery cart and the other is a covered Unit with a Deep cycle to power portable fans, AC, and Heaters for the kids.


EDIT: Would the double springer below work with a front hud?

 

[TheKraftyRhino]

Lastly, you might just slap anything on the front of that chopper to start with, so you can run your Aotema during the experimental stages. Mabye you don't need a springer fork at all, other than for looks. You could run a less expensive fork, and save $$ on the motor kit. That increases the battery budget.

I feel dumb Why didn't I think of that lol.

 

[torker]

Also nobody has mentioned regen. If you use a 9c type rear hub with an Infineon type controller. Pretty sure Amped is. One little jumper in the controller and you have regen braking on the rear. I am also shocked that a chopper only has 114 mm spacing on the rear drops. I figured they would be wide. Don't most people want fat rear tires on a chopper? When do you get your frame?

 

[TheKraftyRhino]

I just got off the phone with a friend that knows how to mig weld. He lives 50 miles north of me and said for $150 we could rent a mig welder for a week. His statement to me was "Why compromise now with the intention of fixing it latter. You know damn well it will never get done latter. Do it right the first time the way you want it. It will not be easy if it was everyone would have one." He brought up some interesting ideas.

Get The frame, Hub motor, rim, rear brakes, etc etc.

Get some Steel Square Tubing from a local farm supply.

Lay up the mods needed then go rent the welder and zap it all together.

So the rear question now is can you get a 4" rim on the Amped bike rear kit and still use @ least the outer most chain ring?

 

[TheKraftyRhino]

Also nobody has mentioned regen. If you use a 9c type rear hub with an Infineon type controller. Pretty sure Amped is. One little jumper in the controller and you have regen braking on the rear. I am also shocked that a chopper only has 114 mm spacing on the rear drops. I figured they would be wide. Don't most people want fat rear tires on a chopper? When do you get your frame?

It should be here in ~10 more days.

 

[torker]

it'll be a lot easier once you get that frame in front of you.

 

[RallySTX]

Good morning all. Yes, that triple tree fork setup is strong enough to hold a hub. My question there is, what is the distance between the front dropouts? Are the dropouts at the inside of the fork tubes like they are in the drawing? What is the diatance between the tubes. You will find that there are a few of us on SSDI, here. I have never held one in my hand, but I believe you could do at least that much with a 4 inch rim. More with propper dishing of the rim. You wont need much gears though, once you get that hub working right. Nothing is written in stone here. This is experimenters heaven, and hell. You had very good luck bending aluminum. The steel should allow you some leeway too. But don't be surprised if it doesn't. That said, I will keep my fingers crossed and my pee to myself. If you end up with parts you can't use, you can post them here for free, as long as you're honest, and it's likely someone will buy them. I just bought a used controller from one member, and plan to buy a wheel from another. I might even buy yours depending on the details. As stated earlier, I would never use a front hub with a springer fork. Here's why.

http://visforvoltage.org/vehicle/spoiled-spoiler/7417

Brian L.

 

[TheKraftyRhino]

Those forks are 4.5inch on the inside and the drop outs are on the inside of the fort for the most part. They are slightly set in as opposed to slapped on the sides of the tubes. That is not an issue no more since I have set in stone a rear Drive system. I just don't feel its worth the worry any more to have a front hub. The springer front is out the back door also. Even without the motor up there its going to be a pain to convert it to disk for the price range I want. So its Triple Tree front with 20" spinner and disk brakes.

I Just got back from Lowe's and Tractor Supply Company with my brand new MIG welder Steel round and Square Tubing a Pipe bender and some sand. I am going to practice bending the pipe while its filled with sand and then do some welding.

As soon as I can get a SOLID answer from someone about if a 4" rim on the Amped bikes kit is doable enough to have enough room to grab at least one gear ring on the outer most part of the hub then it will be ordered along with the 4" rims and Surly Tires.

 

[oldpiper]

Those forks are 4.5inch on the inside and the drop outs are on the inside of the fort for the most part. They are slightly set in as opposed to slapped on the sides of the tubes. That is not an issue no more since I have set in stone a rear Drive system. I just don't feel its worth the worry any more to have a front hub. The springer front is out the back door also. Even without the motor up there its going to be a pain to convert it to disk for the price range I want. So its Triple Tree front with 20" spinner and disk brakes.

As soon as I can get a SOLID answer from someone about if a 4" rim on the Amped bikes kit is doable enough to have enough room to grab at least one gear ring on the outer most part of the hub then it will be ordered along with the 4" rims and Surly Tires.

I'm not sure I understand your problem with the front hub motor. If you use that triple-tree fork you pictured, it already has a tab for disk calipers, and most hubmotors (including the AmpedBikes one) have bolt circles for the rotor. So this seems like the least expensive way to get a disk, all you need is the calipers and cable. You're lucky, my Schwinn StingRay OCC XL (not the Spoiler) has dropouts squarely in the center of the tubes, so I'm going to have to modify things some way to have room for the rotor (as well as get/make an adapter for putting the calipers on). A non-springy chopper-type fork isn't going to give you any problems with the motor at all. If you put your batts in the "triangle" area over your pedals, you shouldn't have problems reaching everything with the wires, either.

Brian (RallySTX) has corresponded with a couple of people here concerning lacing a hubmotor into a 4" rear rim, so he would be the one to ask about that if you want to go that way.

Cameron

 

[RallySTX]

Right on Cameron, that triple tree setup will work with a front hub. I got lucky with my OCC Runt. The 9C wheel bolts in with no issues at all. But like yours, there is no way to get a front disk brake setup on there. The only way I figure we could solve that is if we swipe Krafty's front end and see if the head tube is compatible with our bikes. The only way I would offer a solid answer about that 4 inch rim, is if when the frame arrives, and the crankset is installed, and a rear hub motor is installed, that the chainstays are wide enough to take it, and the gear on the crankset lines up with a suitable tooth on the freewheel, and you have an inch or more from the chain to the tire. I hope I just made sense. You may need a spacer on the crankset to move the chain outward from the frame. If the bike was designed for 26 inch wheels with 2 inch tires, it may not easilly hold a wide rim, and the crankset will be too close to the centerline of the bike to tolerate a fat tire. All these things can be dealt with, but require patience, flexability, and perseverance on the part of the builder,you. Take heart my friend, your journey is just beginning. JRH of Holmes Hobbies is the man for custom wheel building.
Brian L.
P.S. After looking over the webpage your bike came from, several things became aparent.
Your bike is designed for 24 or 26 inch rims, with typical 2 inch or so tires. If you go for a 20 inch front tire you will reduce your front ride hight by two inches. This can cause handling issues, and make pedaling arround corners dificult. You can try bending the rear end to take a hub, but if you aren't lucky, you could either break the frame, or end up with a dog tracking tank. The easiest solution for a bolt up reliable ride is a front hub with disk brake in a 26 inch rim. This gives you a bike you can ride and learn with, while you build up your fat tired fantasy Echopper. That's exactly what I'm doing. I bought the Schwinn OCC bike for a simple front hub starter, that I could learn with. All the while, I'm learning what to do to get my Spoiler ready for the conversion. And when you are ready, you should be able to sell the first bike as a reliable Echopper for some serious coin. There's no need to risk damage to a perfectly usable bike, that you can set up easily. When you can ride it while you weld up a Frankenbike. It's your choice, but I'd bet my money on a sure thing over an if mabye. This stuff is hard enough without deliberately sticking your head in the fire.
Brian L.

 

[TheKraftyRhino]

Yea @ this point its all just bla bla bla I guess until things are all sitting in front of me. MY thought and concept on this bike has changed 20 times. All the ideas are there and no answers. And that all stems from not having a frame sitting in front of me.

I filled a 1" square tube with sand and bent it on this $100 Bender I got from Harbor Freight. To be honest it was not bad @ all. It got me to thinking as I was Practicing Mig welding it all together. Why not just make my own Frame lol. I have no idea were to get a head tube or BB tube but I'm sure if I google enough or someone around here may know.

Hey on my Triple Tree it didn't come spaced like that. I took the 2 pieces that hold it tubes to a machine shop and told them I wanted some just like that but wider lol. It was $245 to get them made. I have been useing them on my beach cruiser for over a year now. I never did disk breaks on them because the beach cruiser has a Heavy duty coaster break and rim.