30 MPH on 350 Watts?... Unassisted?

Papa

10 kW
Joined
May 12, 2008
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PNW
Well, I didn't think so. But lets start from the beginning.

About 2 months ago, I was given a Schwinn S350 scooter. It was complete, but missing the battery charger. My Fluke measured 13.2v in both 12v 10Ah batteries, which left me to suspect other problems. Anyway, without further diagnoses, I pulled the batteries, connected them to a smart charger, and pushed the scooter into the corner.

Two weeks later, I was triking back from the local market and passed an unadvertised yard sale. Sitting boldly out front was another one of these oversized skateboards with a hand written price tag of $5. I was not impressed and really wasn't overly inclined to reach for my wallet, but, since it did include the 24v charger (which I needed), I loaded it up and headed for home. It too was about 90%, but the batteries were toast. Oddly, my 'finds' didn't stop because not two days ago, I swung by the local Salvation Army in search of few extra t-shirts (which usually get converted to grease rags by day's end), and wouldn't ya know it.... out in the back receiving yard, was yet another one these damn 2-wheelers. This one, however, was a nice looking, 'deluxe' model with lights, horn, keyed switch, and had two, 12v 12Ah batteries - sadly, the charger was missing. I whittled the cashier down to $20 and headed for home. The batteries were low, but after 5 hours of smart charging they seem fine.

Yesterday, I scanned my scooter collection and decided to experiment and see how much damage I could do to one my precious trikes. I fabbed a quick mount, then bolted on the S350 motor - then I installed the freewheel rear sprocket adapter on a 20" wheel and started bolting pieces on. As a test, I robbed the entire wiring harness from the S350, Two hours later I had a rideable EV. One snag - the largest rear sprocket I had, was an 80t - I wanted a 90t. Other than reversing to motor wires, the OEM wiring was left intact - after all, this was only a test to see if everything was functional with minimal time and investment spent.

The test ride...

I live in a very small town. Main street is about 1/4 mile long and has, what I conservatively estimate, about a 2-3 degree slope to the west. I pointed the trike uphill and launched on the pedals up to about 6-7 mph, I then slowly rolled on the throttle. It immediately started accelerating, so I stopped pedaling. It's 3-speed is geared to about 16 mph max, so my legs could not offer any assistance beyond that speed. I was gentle on the throttle, but continued accelerating. By the 3rd block, I was nearing 20 mph and beginning to feel a tad uncomfortable, so I backed off... even though there was still throttle left. I turned around and headed home. Aimed down hill this time, it was difficult to hold it back. Within two city blocks, the speed was at 25 and still climbing. This is NUTS!

Here's the unmolested trike:

x20w1z.jpg


Here's a couple of snips I took with a borrowed cell phone just tonight:

330zhx3.jpg
 
Love it! but when you put a wattmeter on it, you'll find the 350 watts is just a number, and more likely you are pulling at least 500 watts when going 30 mph. Shows the aero advantage that trike has though. An upright bike geared right would take more like 750 watts to be doing 30.
 
Hey Papa! What brand of trike is that? I don't recognise it. Neet alternative to a front hub with that scooter drive!
otherDoc
 
Builds like this being advertised will drive the $2,000 turn-key E-bike companies nuts. I recommend adding a used 3-speed hub as a jackshaft, and using 2nd/3rd for normal driving, with 1st/2nd for hilly areas. Final gearing set for your target top speed, so the lower gearing will be reduced as much as possible to reduce low-rpm watt-draw and heat.

Several years ago Grandpa-Chas over at VisforVoltage did that as an experiment. It increased his hill climbing torque, reduced hill-climbing heat, and gave him better range on the same battery pack (I believe he lives in the hilly SF-bay area). He also specifically used a motor rated for 500W @ 24V, and then he used 36V to lower the amps needed.

Someone needs to make a split-ring HTD sprocket that will clamp over the hub of a 3-speed. They can be driven forwards or backwards (drive the hub, and the sprocket is the output)

edit: if that is a 7T drive-sprocket, a 9T or 11T would be quieter (I'm told)
 
dogman said:
Love it! but when you put a wattmeter on it, you'll find the 350 watts is just a number, and more likely you are pulling at least 500 watts when going 30 mph. Shows the aero advantage that trike has though. An upright bike geared right would take more like 750 watts to be doing 30.
I have WU so we'll see in the coming weeks.
docnjoj said:
Hey Papa! What brand of trike is that? I don't recognise it. Neet alternative to a front hub with that scooter drive!
otherDoc
It's a one-off custom I built. The rear axle is from a 'granny' trike, and I added everything forward. I've since graduated to making the axle assemblies instead of conversions.
spinningmagnets said:
I recommend adding a used 3-speed hub as a jackshaft,
This trike has a Sturmey 3-speed in the LH wheel - I chose to mount the motor to the RH wheel out of simplicity and to avoid altering the original pedal gearing. Since Idaho has a pedal-less EV only amendment to their existing moped law, I may just pull the entire pedal system and install another motor on the LH side. Idaho's max speed limit for mopeds, is also 30 MPH.

The front sprocket is a 11t. I have a 10t, but would prefer a 90t on the rear.
 
that is really cool. i love how your trike looks, it seems very laid back. 8)

as dogman said, 350 watts is just a number. i have a 250watt unite motor and it pulls well over 700 watts at 20mph according to the wattmeter i have.

either way, it looks like fun :mrgreen:
 
spinningmagnets said:
Papa, are you happy with the seat?... and if yes, where are they available?
I made the seat. To create the mold, I extensively modified a fiberglass Ames (sp?) dining room chair. It weighs 1.2 pounds. I have since replaced that seat with the one off this 'bent...

2crtzbn.jpg
,

...which is much cooler, quieter and less vibrations.

vanilla ice said:
Brushed motors aren't so bad huh..

:D
Especially when they're freebies! :mrgreen:


def215 said:
that is really cool. i love how your trike looks, it seems very laid back. 8)

as dogman said, 350 watts is just a number. i have a 250watt unite motor and it pulls well over 700 watts at 20mph according to the wattmeter i have.

either way, it looks like fun :mrgreen:
Thank you. Cosmetics wasn't on the menu when I reached for the torch. It's a daily rider that gets the bulk of my local 'gofer' chores, and is a hot ticket when the grandkids show-up - which now means i'll need to be able to wire the batteries in parallel to prevent skin loss... ain't no way I'd turn a 10 YO loose on this thing otherwise.
 
Papa said:
spinningmagnets said:
Papa, are you happy with the seat?... and if yes, where are they available?
I made the seat. To create the mold, I extensively modified a fiberglass Ames (sp?) dining room chair. It weighs 1.2 pounds. I have since replaced that seat with the one off this 'bent...

...which is much cooler, quieter and less vibrations.

What is the construction of that seat? Looks like some sort of stretched 'fabric' mesh...

I'm still undecided as to seat material for my velo, currently I'm thinking stretched canvas like we used to do at high school, but while extremely comfy it also got quite sweaty....
 
It looks like it's a suspended mesh similar to the way I made the CrazyBike2 seat, which I modelled after a lot of various 'bent seats I saw on the web. Primarily the ones on various Tour Easy clones. Mesh acts like a hammock or lawn chair so it's suspending your body and isolating it from all the bike vibrations.
 
madact said:
What is the construction of that seat? Looks like some sort of stretched 'fabric' mesh...

I'm still undecided as to seat material for my velo, currently I'm thinking stretched canvas like we used to do at high school, but while extremely comfy it also got quite sweaty....
I've not ridden a more comfortable seat than mesh seats. The frame is typically fabricated from EMT (electrical conduit) tubing - very cheap, about $2 for 10'. Finished weight is typically around 2 pounds (900g). Here is one detailed example of how it's made:

http://sites.google.com/site/recycledrecumbents/seat-frame-construction

Mine are bit differ in that I use side rails to hold the fabric and a slightly different fabric, but the end results is much the same. Try here for the fabric:

http://poweroncycling.com/product/poc-phifertex-565.htm
 
My first attempt at video, so be nice :oops:

I estimate the slope on this hill at 2 to 3% for about 3 - 3.5 blocks. At about 01:23, the hill levels out as indicated by the speedo climbing another 2 MPH. The only pedal assist was the launch because the gearing is too high for this combination. It will self-launch, but I prefer to avoid high amperage launches. I estimate all-up weight at 68-70 pounds (sans rider). Two SLA,, 12Ah (24v) batteries feeding a Schwinn S350 kick scooter motor and matching 30A controller. Gearing is 11t x 80t. Drive wheel is 20" BMX.
 
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