4 inch diameter Astro motors coming soon..........

[neptronix]

On the upside, you could always take down the drone spying at you on US soil and steal it's astro motor.

See, living in a police state won't be too bad! government subsidized ebikes, yeah!

 

[Green Machine]

Some people on the RC groups were speculating that these motors are assembled/made overseas such as China. In other words, R&D is in the USA, but farm-out the manufacturing elsewhere. Is this possible that some motors come from overseas, or do they hand build ALL the motors in the USA?

And yes this is what i was speculating that Astro had just become a china depot and most of their motors were being outsourced. I saw no way that astro was competing in the RC market with the chinese invasion of fast and furious (and almost forgot cheap) rc brushless motors.

So the new owner of Astro saw an advertisement for a businss for sale Astro Flight Motor two years ago in a business journal and it was obvious when he bought it that Astro was on its last legs in a small decrepit location and only 5 employeess...it seems logical that most buyers would resort to outsourcing and putting more affordable lesser quality motors on the market to compete with turnigy, etc.

According to the folks at Astro this is not the case, that no astro motor or even any part of an astro motor is being outsourced..its all being made here. I saw for myself small 1 inch can motors being assembled on a work bench. I counted 4 full time workers winding motors.

The new owner said they were not doing near enough volume to make outsourcing feasible for them, plus they were trying to build on the Astro legacy of quality.

He showed me the laminates used on the 3220. He claims his cost on the laminate is over $100. and its done by local US company. He attributes quality laminates to the efficiency of the motor. He showed me in comparison a much cheaper laminate of a chinese competitor rc motor and it was obvious the Astros laminate were a finer nicer grade. He says the laminate in the 4 inch motor costs him 400 dollars to make. Also the grade of copper used in the 4 inch motor is even higher than on the 3220's etc. The 4 inch motor is being made for a customer where money is not a concern. My guess is that would include a pilot for a sailplane, and the military. It would also make a great electric bike motor but you are #1 going to need to be crazy as in LFP and #2 willing to pay big dollars to save the 20 pound difference or so between this new astro and what lfp is using now. Also i think what guys forget to calculate with these sexy motors is the weight of the gear reduction unit itself. A matt gear reduction designed for this motor is probably going to weigh 10 pounds or more. Also dont forget to factor in the cost of the gear reduction (in very small production) when fathoming how much all this is going to cost to put the 4 incher on a bike.

Also remember that these sensorless RC motors, need to be run at their sweet spot to be efficient. That means this motor will have to run at 6000rpm is the number they mentioned. Think about having to run a motor as powerful as this at those kind of rpms for any extended period of time, and a mars motor or perm motor starts to look a lot more attractive to the rc bike builder who wants power and smoothness. The 4 inch motor was designed for high powered flight...not cruising around on 2 wheels.

Putting the 4 inch astro on a bike is way way far fetched. But I really would love to watch if someone is going to try it. Mabye a trike would be more safe and sane ....or maybe the military is looking for a manned electric bike to go on "stealth" missions behind enemy lines on the ground. Wouldnt it be funny if it was the military that became the first entitiy ever to put in an order for 1000 motors for an electric bike project. By the way the thing that was posted earlier about md0007 saying he could have bought 1000's of astro motors for his bike project....what electric bike ever sold 1000 units? A high priced astro powered bike is going to be the first one? Also way way far fetched. Astro minded people on this group..i love this place . Down with the drones and steal their astros!! lol

 

[mdd0127]

Hi,

IMO you would be better served if you took some responsibility for your own failures.

Mitch, coming from Marin myself I find that judgement a bit harsh

I should have figured out a way to try to make my point more diplomatically but I did not intend to be harsh. Even if its 100% true that mdd would have been wildly successful if Astro had none of the problems he listed that doesn't mean that the reason he failed is due to Astro. Thats like saying the reason he is drowning is because the current in this river is too fast, ignoring the fact that he should not have jumped into the river in the first place. The first step he needs to take to improve his chances of success is to overcome his own shortcomings, which can't happen as long as he blames someone else for his failures.

If it was just Astro, then you would be correct. It turns out though that other than Castle Creations, and Gary Goodrum, and JRHolmes, EVERY single supplier I tried to do business with let me down in a big way, including some forum members here. It took months to get anything done. Parts were shipped poorly, late, broken. Promises of power output were lies. Tools were garbage. I could go on but I won't. I gave it hell and won't beat myself up over it.

 

[mdd0127]

Putting the 4 inch astro on a bike is way way far fetched. But I really would love to watch if someone is going to try it. Mabye a trike would be more safe and sane ....or maybe the military is looking for a manned electric bike to go on "stealth" missions behind enemy lines on the ground. Wouldnt it be funny if it was the military that became the first entitiy ever to put in an order for 1000 motors for an electric bike project. By the way the thing that was posted earlier about md0007 saying he could have bought 1000's of astro motors for his bike project....what electric bike ever sold 1000 units? A high priced astro powered bike is going to be the first one? Also way way far fetched. Astro minded people on this group..i love this place . Down with the drones and steal their astros!! lol

Just an FYI. Initially our plan was to finalize the design of a sub 75lb bike that could outrun a crf450 both on and off-road, and still be pedaled efficiently. Which is something that without a doubt, I am capable of doing and have the designs for. Once the prototype was done, we had real investors lined up to show it to. The plan for production was to make a BUNCH of them and flood the market with them, possibly below cost. We were also going to give a bunch away to tour/rental companies, celebrities, pro riders, etc. We also wanted to, and had the connections to, present the bikes to law enforcement/military. The bikes would have been expensive but so much more capable and so much cooler than everything that's currently available that they would have been snatched up at the asking price. Keep in mind that this is more of an ultralight motorcycle than a bicycle. Most people with money don't care about e-bikes because they're wonky looking, slow, unreliable, unsafe to commute on when built at legal specs, and not DOT legal, but people will spend money on something that will quickly get them to work...and allow for some fun along the way. In the larger scale of things, 1000 units is a drop in the ocean but at that volume, it might have even been possible to make a profit from the beginning because of economy of scale issues.

You said that you dream big.........I used to do that too.

 

[flathill]

Putting the 4 inch astro on a bike is way way far fetched. But I really would love to watch if someone is going to try it. Mabye a trike would be more safe and sane ....or maybe the military is looking for a manned electric bike to go on "stealth" missions behind enemy lines on the ground. Wouldnt it be funny if it was the military that became the first entitiy ever to put in an order for 1000 motors for an electric bike project. By the way the thing that was posted earlier about md0007 saying he could have bought 1000's of astro motors for his bike project....what electric bike ever sold 1000 units? A high priced astro powered bike is going to be the first one? Also way way far fetched. Astro minded people on this group..i love this place . Down with the drones and steal their astros!! lol

Just an FYI. Initially our plan was to finalize the design of a sub 75lb bike that could outrun a crf450 both on and off-road, and still be pedaled efficiently. Which is something that without a doubt, I am capable of doing and have the designs for. Once the prototype was done, we had real investors lined up to show it to. The plan for production was to make a BUNCH of them and flood the market with them, possibly below cost. We were also going to give a bunch away to tour/rental companies, celebrities, pro riders, etc. We also wanted to, and had the connections to, present the bikes to law enforcement/military. The bikes would have been expensive but so much more capable and so much cooler than everything that's currently available that they would have been snatched up at the asking price. Keep in mind that this is more of an ultralight motorcycle than a bicycle. Most people with money don't care about e-bikes because they're wonky looking, slow, unreliable, unsafe to commute on when built at legal specs, and not DOT legal, but people will spend money on something that will quickly get them to work...and allow for some fun along the way. In the larger scale of things, 1000 units is a drop in the ocean but at that volume, it might have even been possible to make a profit from the beginning because of economy of scale issues.

You said that you dream big.........I used to do that too.

No way to make a sub 75lb bike that will beat a 450 with a reasonable size pack. Keep dreaming. Even the Zero MX tips the scales at 200lbs with a 14.5 pound frame.

Here is a bike that can beat a stock crf450 (in a drag race) and it weighs 255lbs with no lights
with 42hp at the rear wheel it is 4 seconds faster per lap than a 250

The motor is roughly the same size as the 4" astro

Here is your 271lb pedal-motorcycle

 

[liveforphysics]

If you're building a motor to run at a single high RPM speed, with extremely high air-flow, you can make the motor small and light and powerful.


All the Astro's being used on ebikes are a mistake IMHO. I used to believe. Lots of time dyno'ing various electric motors and building race bikes and burning up motors and re-winding and burning up motors has lead me to believe you're simply never going to get reliable high performance from a motor in a small package, unless your application is driving a prop at a near constant speed right in its efficiency zone.

I'm 99% sure I would smoke the 4" astro in under 1 minute of it underwhelming me from what I've grown accustom to experiencing. It's just not worth the cost or drivetrain hassles in setting up a super high RPM motor to even find out to me. You can often end up with a lighter overall package that is reliable (as reliable as anything super high-performance is ever going to be) and both possible and easy to control by using a big dumb $400 boat anchor motor, or going with a massive massive hubby like JohninCR's hubmonster.

That's just my $0.02 from the knowledge and experience I've gained in the last few years of pushing the envelope right off the table a few dozen times.

 

[Thud]

You guys are really off topic & derailing this thread.......I am "unsubscribing" to get off this tangent.
Thanks.
T

 

[liveforphysics]

Initially our plan was to finalize the design of a sub 75lb bike that could outrun a crf450 both on and off-road, and still be pedaled efficiently.

As much as I would love to see that, it's simply not possible with current materials technology. Even if you took battery weight completely out of the 75lbs weight, you're just not going to get there. The suspension/wheels/tires/brakes to hang with a CRF450 on dirt is going to be over 50lbs on its own, and thats using only the lightest best made stuff on the planet. You're just not going to be able to put down the power needed through anything like a bicycle tire on dirt. On street it may be possible to get pretty close if the 75lbs doesn't count battery weight, and you don't mind a motor and tires that only last a lap.

 

[Arlo1]

So this is where a multi speed tranny comes in. Hmm brd is having great sucsess with a single speed... But from what i have seen brd CAN NOT beat a 450! But a cost efictive way to light weight maybe just a bigger motor! Its what i taught the kids two weeks ago when we fried Our first motor lol.

 

[flathill]

So this is where a multi speed tranny comes in. Hmm brd is having great sucsess with a single speed... But from what i have seen brd CAN NOT beat a 450! But a cost efictive way to light weight maybe just a bigger motor! Its what i taught the kids two weeks ago when we fried Our first motor lol.

In an 1/8 mile drag race it might against a stock 450, a race tuned crf could have over 60hp
no way it will beat the 450 on track

 

[Green Machine]

You guys are really off topic & derailing this thread.......I am "unsubscribing" to get off this tangent.
Thanks.
T

Noted...lets try to keep subject on the 4 inch astro guys ...although i don't feel we are that off topic since a 4 inch astro on a bike would be an electric motorcycle effectively. And LFP's interjections on whether the motor is applicable on a bicycle is extremely valuable, since he is the one who has been pioneering over sized over powered motors on ebikes. Before anyone spends 4k plus on a motor, controller, and gear reduction set up...its good idea to have an idea what they are stepping into....an electric motorcycle with pedals. Someone start a thread on out running a 450 please. It wouldn't hurt to drop the whole drone thing even though the 4 inch motor's intended use is drones.

 

[flathill]

To keep it on topic we should change the title of the thread from
coming soon.......
to
already here but you cant buy it!

 

[Green Machine]

Its still in prototype phase and seems to be months away before anyone can buy one.

I still have this vivid image of standing in the astro factory with this giant 4 inch motor in my hands with massive wires coming out and 4 of Astro's key engineers standing around me and i said "what about mounting this to an electric bike" and they all laughed as if I was joking and one said that would be one helluva electric bike...I guess it would have been the equivalent when LFP wanted to mount a Joby motor to a bicycle.

I was begging them to take pictures etc...but they were pretty reluctant given the military development stuff.

I wish i could have got a picture holding that motor....

 

[motomoto]

Look guys, you know when we can finally buy one the these motors, it's going to kick ass. I was there with Green Machine when the engineer at Astro said
it was about 3 times the power of a 3220. So if you geared it right, and had the batteries and controller, you could do a 100.... on a bicycle.
So for Luke, maybe that's isn't good enough, but for the rest of us mortals, I think it is.

So let's all keep dreaming about what we are going to do with the 4 inch, and I am sure the day will come when we will have some smokin' builds, and some
awesome video of how stupid fast they are, and life is good.

 

[flathill]

If they wont even let you take a picture what makes you think the motor will ever be available to the public? Recumpence and a couple others had these motors in "prototype" form well over a year ago but never had a controller
Except
The formula hybrid team that burned up their motor after an oil spill

The development cycle of a brushless motor is months not years
The motor is designed in software and you might need a couple revs after that
Maybe they are experimenting with cooling but the motor design is basically done I would think

 

[Arlo1]

Look guys, you know when we can finally buy one the these motors, it's going to kick ass. I was there with Green Machine when the engineer at Astro said
it was about 3 times the power of a 3220. So if you geared it right, and had the batteries and controller, you could do a 100.... on a bicycle.
So for Luke, maybe that's isn't good enough, but for the rest of us mortals, I think it is.

So let's all keep dreaming about what we are going to do with the 4 inch, and I am sure the day will come when we will have some smokin' builds, and some
awesome video of how stupid fast they are, and life is good.

Luke is thinking 2steps ahead which is a good thing. Its why I jumped up and got the two baddest ass-ed motors I could the second I got the chance. We all are going to want to go faster and faster. So Luke is trying to build it so fast for acceleration and top speed all at once that it scares you! This is a good thing there is no fun in building a bike that is kinda fun but the second you try to make it faster it smokes the motor or controller.... SO the end of it all is there is 3 ways to a great package.
1 Small motor with liquid cooling or realy realy good forced air.
2 Small motor with a transmision.
3 bigger motor.
So in conclusion 4 inches is better then 3 or 2 lol I cant wait to see how these turn out. And from my own motor building designing experiance its not easy to get a Realy good combo in check!

 

[motomoto]

So picture this.

I take a Yamaha YZ 125 with a broken top end and put an Astro 4 inch with water cooling in the place where the crankshaft normally is.
It has a splined shaft that is exactly like the drive side of the crank that came out of it, so it drives the clutch and transmission.


I tastefully stuff the area where the top end, carb, and air box used to be with Nano-techs. I use a 300V 150 amp ESC that should be
coming out in a couple months, and see if I can max it out.

The radiators are already in place to cool the thing. It could go really fast for a couple of laps on a motocross track.

 

[mdd0127]

No way to make a sub 75lb bike that will beat a 450 with a reasonable size pack. Keep dreaming. Even the Zero MX tips the scales at 200lbs with a 14.5 pound frame.

As much as I would love to see that, it's simply not possible with current materials technology. Even if you took battery weight completely out of the 75lbs weight, you're just not going to get there. The suspension/wheels/tires/brakes to hang with a CRF450 on dirt is going to be over 50lbs on its own, and thats using only the lightest best made stuff on the planet. You're just not going to be able to put down the power needed through anything like a bicycle tire on dirt. On street it may be possible to get pretty close if the 75lbs doesn't count battery weight, and you don't mind a motor and tires that only last a lap.

The Zero MX is waaaaayyyy too heavy and is a different category of machine altogether. It's built to compete with race bikes....in races. Most people don't race. They ride trails and/or commute, if on a lightweight machine like a bicycle, at under 45mph through the city.

It's really funny that you think a bike that can outrun a 450 on a trail or from light to light in the city and weighs less than 75 lbs can't be built because I actually have one. Top speed is the only thing that it lacks which in my mind, really isn't a very big deal on a sub 75 lb machine that is designed for trails and side street commuting. 45-50mph is plenty fast enough to kill yourself with, commute, and have a lot of fun with and a 10-20 mile range is really plenty to either wear someone out on the trail or get most people to work. What I'm getting at with all of this is that the perfect sized electric powered two wheeled machine has not yet been perfected and is being ignored by the major players in the market. The selections that are currently available are either way overbuilt, to put up with use that only a small percentage of the public would attempt to put them through, and too heavy because of this, or they are under built, too slow to commute safely on, and not very capable. The Stealth bikes are close but not with all of that unsprung weight.

Anyway, I have all of the parts to build a bike that would easily out accelerate a 450 and I've thoroughly tested and weighed them.
I also have a running, steel framed test bike that scares guys that ride KTM 950 super enduros and race baja. It will reach top speed in less than two seconds, in roughly 40 feet, and is still docile at low speeds so I know that the technology is here......I have ridden it. Anyone that doesn't believe me is welcome to come take it for a spin. :wink:

Bottom line, it is possible, and the 4 inch astro would have been a perfect motor for the job because it would allow someone to run at 3220 power levels with total reliability.

Sorry, back to the perpetually unavailable motor thread.

To Thud,

Sorry to ruin your subscription. If this motor ever becomes available in the real world, I'll definitely let you know. I don't know why but I still like to watch this stuff.

 

[mdd0127]

So picture this.

I take a Yamaha YZ 125 with a broken top end and put an Astro 4 inch with water cooling in the place where the crankshaft normally is.
It has a splined shaft that is exactly like the drive side of the crank that came out of it, so it drives the clutch and transmission.


I tastefully stuff the area where the top end, carb, and air box used to be with Nano-techs. I use a 300V 150 amp ESC that should be
coming out in a couple months, and see if I can max it out.

The radiators are already in place to cool the thing. It could go really fast for a couple of laps on a motocross track.

This is an excellent idea. I gave a DR350 with a 6 speed to Amberwolf that I wanted to do something very similar with. I wanted to machine a new "crank shaft" for it and drive the new crank/jackshaft through the timing chain slot in the case. The frame, fork, and wheels were just too heavy for my purposes though.

 

[Arlo1]

So picture this.

I take a Yamaha YZ 125 with a broken top end and put an Astro 4 inch with water cooling in the place where the crankshaft normally is.
It has a splined shaft that is exactly like the drive side of the crank that came out of it, so it drives the clutch and transmission.


I tastefully stuff the area where the top end, carb, and air box used to be with Nano-techs. I use a 300V 150 amp ESC that should be
coming out in a couple months, and see if I can max it out.

The radiators are already in place to cool the thing. It could go really fast for a couple of laps on a motocross track.

Im planing to build one of these soon.... [youtube]5sPNl6ZWYms[/youtube]

 

[Ypedal]

but then the point is moot when you consider that installing a motor as big/heavy as the total weight of the high rpm/gearbox/clutch/etc combined removes the complexity of it all and just " works " .. as good or better as luke pointed out.

**tho i drool over the coolness factor of that tranny setup and would feel just like a traditional mx with a hand clutch...

 

[Arlo1]

but then the point is moot when you consider that installing a motor as big/heavy as the total weight of the high rpm/gearbox/clutch/etc combined removes the complexity of it all and just " works " .. as good or better as luke pointed out.

**tho i drool over the coolness factor of that tranny setup and would feel just like a traditional mx with a hand clutch...

You know dude we can bench race all we want. Bigger motor is usaly my choice! But I will try a tranny one day as well. The one thing to remember is the big motor needs a more expensive controller (usaly) so the motor it self is not a problem anybody can whip a brushless motor together but its the controller.....

 

[recumpence]

One thing no-one has yet pointed out;

We are all talking about if bigger is better or not. Hmm, that is the entire point of this thread. The 4 inch is bigger than the 3 inch motors. Bigger is, indeed, better.

Sorry, I just had to point that out.........

Matt

 

[flathill]

You can buy a motor from these guys
Converted crf250 with the power of a stock 450
www.evdrive.com/prototypes/category/e-moto-crf250r/

They also do high end car conversions with remy motors and reinhart controllers. Thinking about converting my 3.0CSi but it would be stupid so I'm going to have to wait until I get a bigger garage so I can get another e9 with a blown motor

 

[neptronix]

Haha, i can already hear the big block vs tiny hi-rpm motor arguments on the forum starting

Quite an interesting analogue to gas motors...