7 RC sensorless controllers running 1 very neat DIY motor.

Thanks bigmoose, I missed that one...

http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.powercroco.de%2FAxialhalbach.html

It's similar to the CSIRO and LaunchPoint motors.
 
Jewelers have roller machines specifically made for flattening out round stock, among other things.

http://www.nationaljewelerssupplies.com/p/K441013.html

ml1n44.jpg
 
Miles said:
liveforphysics said:
Here is an example of me realizing how newb I am with CADoodling. After like 2 full hours of trying to make a spiral, I said F-it, and went with little circles. lol
Click to expand...

You need the right tool for the job :)
Click to expand...


Can you export that fine coil in some form that sketchup will let me import it? :)
 
Good link John, I read through it all, but I'm going to need to work some numbers before I get much from it.


Here is an interesting ironless setup:
gpmg5000inset2.jpg


http://www.electrifly.com/motors/gpmg5000.html



This shows some interesting coil DIY'ing action.
http://home.vr-web.de/~thomas_aschenbrenner/BL2/BL2.html



I think a good sign that we might not be too crazy with the axial flux coreless motor design is this:
CSIRO-UTS motor

It is evidently the most efficient brushless motor in the world at 98.5%
It's just a couple pounds, shaped like a dinner plate, 1,500w, and makes solar cars win competitions.


This means they trapped the flux successfully. It also gave me a new idea for rotor design. :) But I've been up all night and I gotta sleep before I start fumbling around trying to use sketch-up again. lol

-Luke
 
http://www.csiro.au/files/files/p37d.asx
here is some video of that motor.
 
Thud said:
http://www.csiro.au/files/files/p37d.asx
here is some video of that motor.
Click to expand...


Great video find Thud!

That motor is certainly ironless, certainly axial, certainly able to be hand built, and certainly out-performs any other type of motor that I've ever seen.

Take that design, and rather than just a little 1.5kw motor, go in layers like the clutch basket theme I've been trying to sketch. Maybe make each layer able to do 2-3kw, and each layer only adds another pound or so. Combine as many layers in a stack as your power needs require, and enjoy. :)

Something neat to think about. If that motor really is 98.5% efficient as they claim, when it's pulling a 1kw load, it's only making 15w of heat! That's the heat a couple C7 Christmas tree bulbs produce, and it's spread out over a very large amount of surface area, and with active moving air passing over it. It not be unreasonable to expect to see <1deg of heat rise above ambient in the motor in those conditions. It also has no core to saturate, hysteresis losses, and extremely low eddy current loss. These are all very good things for a motor which we want to be abusing. :p
 
Since Miles converted me to thinking torque machine, I really like the idea of larger diameters, since torque goes up by the cube of diameter with these axial flux motors, instead of by the square X length with radial flux motors.

John
 
FIRST TO SAY HAY TO YA ALL
YOU ARE ALL VERY INSPIRING
I VE BEEN ON THIS FORUM FOR OVER A YEAR ,READING AND DISCOVERING NICE ELECTRIC STUFF
IN MY HOME I HAVE AGNI 95 REINFORCED AND STILL SKETCHING MOTORCYCLE , I DESIGNED A BICYCLE WITH X5 MOTOR AND
WILL START SERIOUS WORK IN A WEEK AND WILL START A THREAD HERE
YOU PROBABLY KNOW ALREADY THAT CEDRIC LYNCHS MOTORCYCLE IS ALSO AXIAL FLUX AND HAS 95 EFFICIENCY SO I IMAGINE THAT
SOLAR CAR MOTOR CAN DO 98 .
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=475577

ABOUT axial Halbach array electric motor(us compay):

http://images.google.hr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.newsguide.us/images/gI_halbacharraymotorcrosssection.png.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.newsguide.us/technology/industrial/LaunchPoint-Technologies-Announces-New-High-Efficiency-High-Power-Density-Halbach-Array-Electric-Motor/&usg=__IYvyVVzPV3pRxjWWQhtMiinVrbY=&h=127&w=250&sz=15&hl=hr&start=337&um=1&tbnid=dru30Rjwb6i3MM:&tbnh=56&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daxial%2Bflux%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Dhr%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial%26sa%3DN%26start%3D336%26um%3D1

This is the sickest axial flux system ever :

http://images.google.hr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.enduropls.com/images/tech/DflTool_words.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.enduropls.com/tech.jsp%3Fnav%3Ddfl&usg=__DnMhYQePoN8zvUqMhAxwmZU4pIM=&h=396&w=406&sz=26&hl=hr&start=282&um=1&tbnid=2TqSNVzx57bxSM:&tbnh=121&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daxial%2Bflux%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Dhr%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial%26sa%3DN%26start%3D273%26um%3D1

axial flux hub motor :

http://images.google.hr/imgres?imgurl=http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/iCu3_dVMERI/default.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.youtube.com/user/jrenoerenoe&usg=__i0Wz3ZeP0i2SrrlGdZ_oWfngo1A=&h=90&w=120&sz=4&hl=hr&start=309&um=1&tbnid=ouu9iX3_GBh7hM:&tbnh=66&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daxial%2Bflux%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Dhr%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial%26sa%3DN%26start%3D294%26um%3D1

about calculation of magnets needed -this guy uses some funny formula :

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/11/6/103238/936

I RELLY LIKE THIS ONE :

http://images.google.hr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.infolytica.com/en/applications/ex0113/Model.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.infolytica.com/en/applications/index-motorsgenerators.aspx%3Fpage%3D4&usg=__4n9tchD6WzY6DgpQZLFv1FMOklI=&h=185&w=220&sz=23&hl=hr&start=252&um=1&tbnid=CxqkH6wlPps8uM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daxial%2Bflux%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Dhr%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial%26sa%3DN%26start%3D231%26um%3D1

HOPE THIS WILL HELP YA LIFEFORPHISYCS A LITTLE

http://images.google.hr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.green-trust.org/DIY%2520Wind%2520Turbine/Stator/slides/windmill%2520003.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.green-trust.org/DIY%2520Wind%2520Turbine/Stator/slides/windmill%2520003.html&usg=__oXZWKxTmjEn2xCiQIvaNb9eftqk=&h=600&w=800&sz=86&hl=hr&start=228&um=1&tbnid=wwcHtnrT1rdp1M:&tbnh=107&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daxial%2Bflux%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Dhr%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial%26sa%3DN%26start%3D210%26um%3D1

http://images.google.hr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.salsburg.com/6phase/6-PhaseCoilWinding.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.salsburg.com/6phase/Default.html&usg=__FwMKVbwE_EI2tlLij_5Kd9aKOrY=&h=2229&w=2010&sz=1404&hl=hr&start=184&um=1&tbnid=4WB-E-HH08isfM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daxial%2Bflux%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Dhr%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial%26sa%3DN%26start%3D168%26um%3D1
 
I WOULD TRY AND BUY THIS STATOR GUYS - THINK ITS IDEAL :)

http://www.westwindturbines.co.uk/products/ourstators.asp

OR A BEARING FOR AXIAL LOAD

http://www.westwindturbines.co.uk/products/ourbearings.asp


I WONDER HOW MUCH ENERGY DOES PRODUCE THIS ONE(24 magnets, 24 coils, 4 discs, 12 bolts, 12 nuts, an axle, a bearing) ME LIKE :

http://mikelow.net/notebook/1_electromag.php

MODULAR :

http://images.google.hr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cpes.vt.edu/_images/public/research/axialflux_f.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cpes.vt.edu/public/showcase/axialflux.php&usg=__SKvycx9zPLKIU51FftBiC2w9_qw=&h=191&w=184&sz=8&hl=hr&start=78&um=1&tbnid=TxXlUMCjEVF6tM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=99&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daxial%2Bflux%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Dhr%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial%26sa%3DN%26start%3D63%26um%3D1

MORE WIND TURBINE AXIAL FLUX EXAMPLE :

http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/Axial_Flux2-3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/microwave_wind_generator.htm&usg=__ktu32oB96tWISyYte7aZWBqASr0=&h=323&w=333&sz=51&hl=hr&start=59&um=1&tbnid=IZRsZIyoXteejM:&tbnh=115&tbnw=119&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daxial%2Bflux%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Dhr%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial%26sa%3DN%26start%3D42%26um%3D1

ONE MORE HUB WHEEL IN1992

http://images.google.hr/imgres?imgurl=http://elettrica.ing.uniroma1.it/Ricerc2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://elettrica.ing.uniroma1.it/Ricerche_Gen_info_en.html&usg=__BDbC0TOKv2AgkHHpxDq6LZykYco=&h=288&w=382&sz=16&hl=hr&start=12&um=1&tbnid=2Q82wVV1nzQkjM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daxial%2Bflux%26hl%3Dhr%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1

BIKE AXIAL GENERATOR :

http://www.gulland.ca/homenergy/derailer.jpg
 
I guess ypu guys are all coming around to my way of thinking.....where were you all in my axial flux thread LOL. I was really hesitant to bring them up, Miles thought it would be a worthy subject & he is proving right again. Any one up for an "Over Unity" thread :lol:

paul, Jump in the waters fine! looks like you been going down this road also, have you more progress to show? I won't have anything to show for a couple weeks As I have some obligations to attend to:
#1I will be out in the woods untill dark for the next few days, at least untill I fill all my Deer tags for the season.
#2 finish the rebuild of a 300cc Isetta motor for a neighbor, now that all the parts are in
#3 I have a shock rebuild to do for a local racer
#4 I am getting inquires for 2 speed transmisions & am working up the final design for a much quieter all belted version. I am thinking a run of 5 or so.

Then its motors away! Luke, we need to coordinate & build your prototype, logistics are bad, but the enthousieism is there, I am staying with the lower powerd/smaller scale end of the spectrum for the time being-But would love to contribute on a mega build. We need a sponcer to fund the project & then set some goofy record somewhere.
"1st you get the money,...then you get the Power,......then you get the women"-tony montana-
:wink:
 
wow that sound is powerful,

with that design you could take off the props and put 5 or 4 bolts pattern to accept a car rims ...on the other side you can put the rotor for disk brake syrtem and the way it is made the shaft could probably fit in the rear.
 
oups i just realize the thread was longer than its first page i had lots of windows open and replied to the video on first page ...anyway it still works with the rest i guess, interesting thread guys.
 
Hi Thud

I did that today, i have been working on other projects as well, With starting a new job. i have not had a lot of time, long hours then Friday i took bad with what i think is swine flue but the wife says man flue :lol: . If i get time through the week i will do the windings something to do to unwind :D any ideas on the coil winds for those magnets. i have though of double winding different guage wire, two speed motor 2 controllers.

It is also worth looking at some homemade wind turbine sites as they also have good information on them.


Paul
 
Hey paul,
I have a couple folders printed from the wind generation sites. I actaly built a mold for a guy to cast his stators in last year for a wind AFPMG. I don't think he ever finished the project.
Regarding the windings I really don't have a start point. I have been making test winds & will charge them with vari-ing voltages to get to the point of canceling the magnetic draw of the Neo mags. We'll then make a S.W.A.G. & go from there.
 
speaking of starting points thud.

hows this for a magnet array ? 14'' od full ring
http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_15&products_id=733

theres a wee version at 8'' od but ahh i pack 8" already . bhaaaa haa haa goes the wife.

now i just gotta figure out this halbachi array dealy and im good. hhhmm habachi . now im hungry.
 
liveforphysics said:
Miles said:
You need the right tool for the job :)
Click to expand...
Can you export that fine coil in some form that sketchup will let me import it? :)
Click to expand...
SketchUp can import .3ds files, but they are meshes.
SketchUpCoil.jpg(FYI: attaching .3ds files is not permitted)
 
Hey enoob,
Hmnnn. I must have missed the 14"dia.
I kind of dismised those for testing because of upfront costs. (I have a wife to answer to :) )
Another item is reducing the weight as much as I can. A disc magnet is the lightest option at the moment but I think some custom wedges like that would be the ticket once we settle on a design or two. Our needs are slightly different than the generation guys & I think 12 degree wedges to "UP" the pole count would really boost the tourque & lower the Kv at the same time.

Any guroo's out there have an opinion on lap winding the coils on a corless design? I have been avoiding it for reasons of simplicity.
No one has presented any info on coils wound with flat stock as of yet. Still wondering if the benifits are all theroretical.
Every attemp of Halbauch array rotors by the DIYers have fallen short in side by side testing.
(the launchpoint motor has design specific arrays & a lot of reaserch funding I assume) I wonder what the cost of a sample would be & a controller to run it.........

Liveforphysics is absolutly pumped on the corless design & he has the ability to make that happen. I think on a smaller scale with cores, I hope I can build a motor that will do the job for bicycles & be a better fit size wise & gearing wise.. Then I moving to the motorcycle threads & see what trouble I can get into there. This is the kind of stuff I do for relaxation.
 
Thud,

The thread died as soon as you mentioned "over unity". I for one was unsure if you were joking or not.

I'd love to have a motor that needed those 1/2" thick N42 magnets, but it seems like overkill unless you're building a 20kw motor and then I'd worry about heat with the 80°C limit on them.

John
 
LOL, that was a total joke
(although we have a thread with discusion in it here & a couple of the kids seem way to serious)
http://backyardmetalcasting.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3768
yes 14"seems like over kill for a bicycle.
that seems low. wow they are that low....still 175f is plenty hot. Thats the place i bought my magnets from. I wonder how ther are rated? guess I need to keep an eye on temp. I wonder if the chepo motors use any better?
 
Luke here is a little insight into the CSIRO Motor:
98-percent-efficient Halbach motor designed by the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO) that was used in a solar-powered car in the World Solar Challenge race.

This is from http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT/2006/RX/RX54S-siebert.html

The contact info at NASA is:
Andrew J. Provenza, 216-433-6025, Andrew.J.Provenza@nasa.gov

Last time we talked, you were a tax paying American... I say give Andy a call Monday! 9am to 4pm EDST would likely work.

<<< edit >>> adding more...

These papers may be of help:
http://www.itee.uq.edu.au/~aupec/aupec01/104_Greaves_AUPEC01paper%20revised.pdf

"The Halbach magnetic layout is a tremendous advantage, it is just as easy to build as the normal layout, and with exactly the same components (just a few more magnets). From what I’ve seen, simply by putting the magnets in a different layout, we can get twice as much torque out of the motor, and the flux passes inside the magnets, it doesn’t need an iron core!… This is a big step towards building an ironless motor, which is lighter, more efficient, easier and cheaper to build." << Quote from below

http://myownhybrid.wordpress.com/2008/01/30/halbach-demystified/

Below a cut away of "Lukes Motor"
http://www.launchpnt.com/capabilities/electric-motor-design.html

Axial, but max 70% efficiency
http://med.ee.nd.edu/MED10/pdf/257.pdf

Oh My Lord... here is the design paper on the CSIRO Motor:
http://med.ee.nd.edu/MED10/pdf/257.pdf

I quit for the night with that... good luck Luke!
 
Thud said:
Hey enoob,
Hmnnn. I must have missed the 14"dia.
I kind of dismised those for testing because of upfront costs. (I have a wife to answer to :) )

No one has presented any info on coils wound with flat stock as of yet. Still wondering if the benifits are all theroretical.
Every attemp of Halbauch array rotors by the DIYers have fallen short in side by side testing.
(the launchpoint motor has design specific arrays & a lot of reaserch funding I assume) I wonder what the cost of a sample would be & a controller to run it.........

I think on a smaller scale with cores, I hope I can build a motor that will do the job for bicycles & be a better fit size wise & gearing wise.. Then I moving to the motorcycle threads & see what trouble I can get into there. This is the kind of stuff I do for relaxation.
Click to expand...

I dont even have a beautiful new grandchild to spoil and i hear the wife part :roll:
(fantastic photo by the way)
dream motor aside i intend to practice with an old brushless inrunner i have laying around . i can redo the rotor with locally availible magnets in halbauch , the tougher part will be the rewind . ill stop talking and share that gong show in a couple weeks . who doesnt love the smell of burnt windings in the morning eh ?

My interest in this is more motivated by my boys . youngest droped the training wheels this summer and i intend to get them at the work bench with me on these projects . i figure its a rather good hobby for them to see me take on. with that in mind as much as i envy liveforphysics upcoming fun , me thinks it would be unwise to start at the megawatt level with current knowledge level and two monkeys copying me. (youngest is 2 oldest is 5 this weekend)

So my hope is to be involved and possibly help where i can but more than anything learn and get my boys into this stuff .
id be giddy if they are riding thier own little ebikes this summer with me on the chopper. :D

after i see some measure of success ill order the big 14" and see what damage they can do :wink: mean time ill do what i can with wood models based on what i see take shape in this thread.
cleaned out my garage this weekend (semi inspired by aussiejester cleaning his shop) and will start spinning wrenches soon . got the router out of the table and ready to cut circles so lets nail down a starting design.
im inspired by the motor in the op . seems like wood construction should let a person prototype fairly cheaply.

oh and i think i saw a price for that motor and controller in the $12,000 range
 
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