$70 "Next" bike from walmart... (now: electric brakes)

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Sep 2, 2007
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102
I'm not asking if its a good bike - I think I know the answer to that one - I'm asking whether it will work. I already have a nice suspension seat that will combine with the lousy rear suspension on the Next to create a decent ride.

My main question is whether the motor could rip out the rear suspension. I'm sure that someone has used one of these things before.

http://i.walmart.com/i/p/00/83/64/67/00/0083646700017_215X215.jpg
 
It will work... how long, is the real question.

(Not long, is my guess.)
 
If you are going the walmart route, get a chrome-moly steel bike to convert.

Get the real benefit from a cheap-assed bike conversion, use steel.
 
Frame and rear arm are steel so I'd think it'd do just fine. Frame might be a little too heavy duty if anything, I bet the bike is like fourty pounds based on the shipping weight. The frame is probably last thing to worry on, its all the other little stuff. I know you didn't ask, but I bet something more interesting (and lighter) will pop up in the local classifieds for the same price.
 
I've seen lots of those bikes on campus, none electrified of course. The only thing that would worry me are that the rear dropouts are really thin. I wouldn't connect a controller to it without beefing those up. Other than that, it should be fine if you're just riding it on the road.

It's odd now. Every time I see a bikerack now, I habitually check all the rear dropouts.
 
lazarus2405 said:
It's odd now. Every time I see a bikerack now, I habitually check all the rear dropouts.

Ah, ha, ha, ha! When I see a bike rack, I check the space in the middle of the BMX frames to see how many batts I could fit :lol:.
 
lookingelectric said:
My main question is whether the motor could rip out the rear suspension. I'm sure that someone has used one of these things before.

If it was me, I'd look for a cheap bike that has the rear suspension supported by two bushing pivots rather then one for an x5 mounting. They do exist. It probably won't be a Y frame. A cheap schwinn S series full suspension at Target might work but those are about $200.
 
$279.00 from Amazon.com Multiple pivots looks like. Don't know about the dropouts though.
 
A cheap schwinn S series full suspension at Target might work but those are about $200.

Exactly! I use a Schwinn S-25 with my 84v 5304. 6061 aluminum frame, a full front triangle and thick rear arm. The dropouts are really beefy, so much so that I don't need torque arms...yet. At least half an inch wide, looks like steel inset. Again, lined up on a bike rack, the difference is huge.

In my experience, it's a good bike, but I got mine used specifically to convert and have only been on it for two weeks. It's a comfortable ride, and easily strong enough for commuting and light off-road fun. I wouldn't trust it off drops or on trails - it'd most likely implode, but that isn't what I want my ebike for anyway. :p

http://pics.livejournal.com/niveus_tigris/pic/00008b0x/g6 is a better picture of it than you'll find on a sales site. There is also a S-40, which as far as I can tell is the exact same thing but with a disc brake in front. I can't say how good it is, but you can always use that big motor to brake better than any bike disc.

If you go that route, as soon as you have it converted, take it to the LBS and ask them to do a tune-up on it (brakes, shifters, wheel true, etc). Then you'll be set for anything short of real trails with real drops.
 
Dude comes in asking a very specific question, and look at us. :lol: Oh well seems he knew it would happen.

BTW, take it from somebody who has a heavy overbuilt steel frame, even with power you'll be feeling those extra pounds. Chromoly is probably a wiser choice, but hey it is only 70 bux..
 
lazarus2405 said:
A cheap schwinn S series full suspension at Target might work but those are about $200.

Exactly! I use a Schwinn S-25 with my 84v 5304. 6061 aluminum frame, a full front triangle and thick rear arm. The dropouts are really beefy, so much so that I don't need torque arms...yet. At least half an inch wide, looks like steel inset. Again, lined up on a bike rack, the difference is huge.

There is also a S-40, which as far as I can tell is the exact same thing but with a disc brake in front. I can't say how good it is, but you can always use that big motor to brake better than any bike disc.

At the target by me, there's an S-60 which has the lightweight aluminum frame. I noticed it was noticably lighter then the others. I also noticed the price was $220. Is it as strong? Who knows.
 
lazarus2405 said:
http://pics.livejournal.com/niveus_tigris/pic/00008b0x/g6 is a better picture of it than you'll find on a sales site. There is also a S-40, which as far as I can tell is the exact same thing but with a disc brake in front. I can't say how good it is, but you can always use that big motor to brake better than any bike disc.

Hey, freaky. My bike is an S-40. Red, though.

I can verify that it has a good front disc. I've never done it deliberately, but I did have to do an emergency stop where I pulled the brake pretty hard. Good thing I wasn't going faster, because I partially endo'd into the guys car.

Front drops are 6mm. Rear drops are 8mm. Both are steel.

FYI, only the front has a disc brake; the rear has a caliper. However, they can be switched (I've never tried this, though.).
 
Link, that's great to know! I'm not the only one! How are your batteries and controller mounted? How hast fast you gone on that suspension, and what tires do you use? Did you add any torque arms, and if so, what sort? Any pictures of your setup? I'd be very interested to see them.

Front drops are 6mm. Rear drops are 8mm. Both are steel.

Thanks for clearing that up. Silly me and hyperbole. Bike's at school, and I'm on break till Sunday night. Perhaps separation is breeding fondness.

Not that the brakes matter with an x5. I'm not sure everyone knows it, but that gigantic motor can be used as a brake. Just short two phase wires through ~25' of 18AWG wire. It's so simple, I don't know why stock clyte controllers don't have it. I've taken it upon myself to evangelize the resistor coil brake any time someone mentions needing stopping power on their x5. So some good discussion and two guys running such a setup can be found at http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=583&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60
 
I have the S-60 In half silver half blue. Like Link i get the disk brake front and caliper rear. Although mine is full aluminum. Rear dropout are aluminum too. Not sure if it's really an upgrade. There is also disk brake mount in the rear so you could use that to make your own torque arm. I mount the battery in a seat post rack. It said it's rated for 25lb. My 4 dewalt weigh 10. Even then i will look into ways to reenforce it in the future. Maybe a diagonal brace from the rack to the middle of the seat tube. The bike is great. Total weight of the bike is 60lbs Not sure if the S-40 might have same style frame but smaller size or not, but i'm 5'9" and i can't properly adjust the bike for comfort. Setting the seat so my leg is fully extend and i can't touch the ground when stop. I tried adjusting the spring so the suspension is drop and lowered but then there's slack in the spring and when hit a drop the suspension drop down then bump up and smack the spring stopper. Stock seats is hard as sitting on rocks. So make sure you get better seats. Bike come with shimano spitfire shifter so it will easily clear your throttle. Will not need to deal with annoying configuration of switching out twist shifter. Crystalyte speed controller fit perfectly in the water bottle mount area.
 
lazarus2405 said:
Link, that's great to know! I'm not the only one! How are your batteries and controller mounted? How hast fast you gone on that suspension, and what tires do you use? Did you add any torque arms, and if so, what sort? Any pictures of your setup? I'd be very interested to see them.

Front drops are 6mm. Rear drops are 8mm. Both are steel.

Thanks for clearing that up. Silly me and hyperbole. Bike's at school, and I'm on break till Sunday night. Perhaps separation is breeding fondness.

Not that the brakes matter with an x5. I'm not sure everyone knows it, but that gigantic motor can be used as a brake. Just short two phase wires through ~25' of 18AWG wire. It's so simple, I don't know why stock clyte controllers don't have it. I've taken it upon myself to evangelize the resistor coil brake any time someone mentions needing stopping power on their x5. So some good discussion and two guys running such a setup can be found at http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=583&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60

Well, I've decided to go with an (even) cheaper steel bike that I have laying around (nearly forgotten about it). If the lack of any shocks at all get to me, I'll upgrade to something better.

I'm really interested in the use of the motor as a brake. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that I'm up to the soldering, etc that is described at the start of the regenerative braking thread. On the other hand, my BMS isnt going to allow regen, so I'm interested in stopping and burning off the energy as heat somewhere away from the motor & batteries. Is it possible to do that in a really, really simple way without needing a second controller?
 
If the lack of any shocks at all get to me, I'll upgrade to something better.

It will. Trust me. It will.

I'm interested in stopping and burning off the energy as heat somewhere away from the motor & batteries. Is it possible to do that in a really, really simple way without needing a second controller?

Yes, yes, YES! That's what I'm suggesting! Ignore the first part of the thread. The discussion at the end is over nothing but simple, non-regenerative motor braking. Looks like I had you start later on in the thread than I had intended. Start reading here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=583&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=49

Look at stevo's setup. If you can wire a switch, you can do that. This is the circuit diagram:
file.php

That's all. The "resistor coil" is just some wire. And a switch. That's it.

The heat is drawn away and spread between the motor and the coil of wire. The motor, being an x5, will shrug off a little heat like it's nothing. The wire is wrapped around something metal, like the bike's frame, to draw away the heat. Controller and batteries remain completely untouched.
 
lazarus2405 said:
If the lack of any shocks at all get to me, I'll upgrade to something better.

It will. Trust me. It will.

I'm interested in stopping and burning off the energy as heat somewhere away from the motor & batteries. Is it possible to do that in a really, really simple way without needing a second controller?

Yes, yes, YES! That's what I'm suggesting! Ignore the first part of the thread. The discussion at the end is over nothing but simple, non-regenerative motor braking. Looks like I had you start later on in the thread than I had intended. Start reading here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=583&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=49

Look at stevo's setup. If you can wire a switch, you can do that. This is the circuit diagram:
file.php

That's all. The "resistor coil" is just some wire. And a switch. That's it.

The heat is drawn away and spread between the motor and the coil of wire. The motor, being an x5, will shrug off a little heat like it's nothing. The wire is wrapped around something metal, like the bike's frame, to draw away the heat. Controller and batteries remain completely untouched.

So, I assume that the three wires shown are the power wires, rather than anything having to do with the hall-effect lines. It looks like I need to cut into two of the power lines and connect them with a switch for braking. Which two isnt clear, though? Do I really need a long coil, or can I just use a few high-ohm resistors on something thermally conductive?

What happens if both the throttle and the "brake" are activated at the same time? Do they fight each other, or do I get "power braking"?

Would rear torque arms be required for this?
 
Sorry, those wires are connected to phase wire lines, not Hall lines. It doesn't matter which two. You don't have to actually cut into them; you could make a small shunt-thingy of wire with an Anderson at each end and cut into that instead, so as not to permanently modify your controller's or motor's wires.

I suppose you could use resistors, but you need to be much more careful. A lot of current at high voltage will flow through that circuit, in the area of 30v-70v and 30a-70a. You could kill those resistors pretty easily, or end up with either insufficient braking power or far too much. Too small a resistor will throw you off or tear up your dropouts, too large a resistor will provide too little braking. To give you an idea, stevo uses 18' of 22ga, which is about 0.3 ohms, while ggoodrum uses 26' of 18ga, for about 0.16 ohms. Both use 5304s in 26" wheels; different windings will need different resistor values for the same braking effect.

Read through the parts of that thread regarding the resistor coil braking. Don't fret too much about the 3-phase rectifier setup; it's not needed.

The wire coil is very, very simple. It can easily be adjusted, and it can be easily "calibrated" - just start with too long of a wire and gradually shorten it till you find your sweet spot. The resistor wire, when wrapped around something metal, also forms an inducer. The result of this is that at higher speeds, it yields more braking power than at lower speeds. This is a very desirable result that might not come about with just a resistor instead of a wire coil.

As for torque arms, the answer is yes, no, and maybe, depending on how much resistance is in your wire/resistor/whatever. Again, I'd just start off with 20' of 22awg or 35' of 18awg or something like that and shorten it until I felt like the braking power was enough, or until I felt like the dropouts were straining. You're less likely to need them on rear drops, and if you're okay running an x5 in the rear without arms, you should be fine, within reason.

I don't know what exactly will happen if you engage both at once, just that you won't kill the controller. Fechter or someone can clarify exactly what would happen. I believe that they would fight each other and generate extra heat. Still, you'd have your hand off the throttle anyway if you're braking, right?
 
lookingelectric said:
So, I assume that the three wires shown are the power wires, rather than anything having to do with the hall-effect lines. It looks like I need to cut into two of the power lines and connect them with a switch for braking. Which two isnt clear, though? Do I really need a long coil, or can I just use a few high-ohm resistors on something thermally conductive?

What happens if both the throttle and the "brake" are activated at the same time? Do they fight each other, or do I get "power braking"?

Would rear torque arms be required for this?

Yes, the three wires are the phase wires. I don't think it matters which two you short out.

The coil of wire is a resistor. We use wire because it's the cheapest resistor you can get. You could use (low ohm, not high) resistors, but you'd need quite a few to dissipate enough power, even if you used 5W resistors.

They'd fight each other. You'd be trying to feed power to the motor to speed it up, while at the same time trying to slow it down. Nothing too drastic should happen (since the controller is current limited), but you'd be wasting a lot of power.

Depending on the resistance of the wire, you could have some serious torque going into the drops. Personally, I wouldn't even think about doing this without torque arms.


lazarus2405 said:
Link, that's great to know! I'm not the only one! How are your batteries and controller mounted? How hast fast you gone on that suspension, and what tires do you use? Did you add any torque arms, and if so, what sort? Any pictures of your setup? I'd be very interested to see them.

They aren't. I stuff them in a backpack. The power and throttle wires connect very discreetly under the seat via a modified throttle connector (painted black) stuck to a pair of Powerpoles.

I've never tested speed formally, but I should be doing just over 30mph on 48V. Feels very smooth.

Stock tires with Slime'd inner tubes. They've saved me from a few flats.

No torque arms yet (front hub, eep!). Haven't got any way to put any on without them being ugly. I'd like to weld an extra steel plate cut to the shape of the drop, but I have no way of doing that.

No pics, sorry. I don't own a camera, and probably won't for a while. Picture a front hub and that's about the only noticeable difference from stock, since the batteries and controller are in the backpack.

Link said:
Front drops are 6mm. Rear drops are 8mm. Both are steel.

I take that back. The rear are aluminum. The magnet I was checking them with was attracted to a washer on the derailleur mount. They are pretty thick, though.

ngocthach1130 said:
Not sure if the S-40 might have same style frame but smaller size or not, but i'm 5'9" and i can't properly adjust the bike for comfort. Setting the seat so my leg is fully extend and i can't touch the ground when stop. I tried adjusting the spring so the suspension is drop and lowered but then there's slack in the spring and when hit a drop the suspension drop down then bump up and smack the spring stopper. Stock seats is hard as sitting on rocks. So make sure you get better seats. Bike come with shimano spitfire shifter so it will easily clear your throttle. Will not need to deal with annoying configuration of switching out twist shifter.

If you can't adjust it for comfort, then it's probably not the same frame. I'm 6'1" and can adjust it to being too tall and too short. Never had to adjust the suspension.

Yes, I swapped out the seat long ago for the squishiest thing I could find. Big difference.

I don't know what the S-40 came with, but adjusting it for clearance wasn't too much of a pain. I'm using a half-twist throttle.
 
ahh..but that's why. You're 6'1". I'm on the verge of proper adjustment. I can stand but a slight tip toe. Either way it seem alot of us own these S series Schwinn bike. So it is agreeable to say they are good for conversion. Too bad they don't have large frame triangle for battery. I actually thought of drilling a few hole into the frame on the top tube and make battery mount like Steveo have for his dewalt pack.

Oh BTW. Dunno if anyone thought of this before, but don't you guys think the coil braking method resemble a Coil Gun. Or Gauss gun. Imagine wrapping those coil around a tube and put projectile under it. After a few braking you would charge up a capacitor bank. Then when you can start picking off lycra with your projectile as you catch up to them Hahahha.
 
Oh, whole I love the idea of picking off lycra, I think it's more fun to taunt them with a stealthy conversion. Pull up on them pedaling furiously and start to pass them. Once they see you, on a mountain bike in baggy clothes, they'll be tempted to speed up as a matter of pride. Keep pedaling (or rather, moving your feet in circles) nose in front of them, regardless of how much speed they put on. Break their spirits. With a stealthy x5, they'll stand no chance yet not understand such. :twisted:

But yes, they really are good for conversion. Cheap, suspended, strong, and with thick drops. And, they do have some front triangle room, at least far more than any Y-geometry.
 
You're in luck my friend. Just today there was a post on hackaday on cheap coil gun. Pretty fun to read and not hard to make either.
http://matthack.com/category/coil-gun-v20/
 
WTF ghetto-ass camera (not to be confused with ghetto ass-camera) uses a 2kV flash? I only measured about 300v on mine.

I was gonna try to make a coil gun a while back, but with multiple coils. You have the added complexity of working out a way to trigger them, but I think the extra power is worth it.
 
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