9C Motors and Climbing Hills?

[knoxie]

Whilst there is a tonne of footage of geared bike motors climbing hills there doesn't seem to be a whole bunch of direct drive video builds tackling hills?

My X5304 is a pretty decent hill climber however per volt its not a patch on the BMC as the BMC is a geared motor.

Digging around on Google video (remember that? ) I found a great clip of my buddy Steve Head and his dirt monkey bike tackling a 20% grade on a xlyte 4 series motor, he was running at 72V 30A from memory and it was fitted in a 16 inch wheel, he removed the chain to prove that no peddling was added.

The video is a great example of the power of direct drive motors, Steve shoots up the hill pretty quickly.

I was particularly interested in folks with 9C motors, as I intend to get one in the summer for my missus and it needs to be able to keep pace with the BMC on the hills, so how do you all find it's hill climbing ability? and more so do you have any videos you can post here with the relevant data as well? maybe take the chain off for a test :wink:

Here is the old video of Steve and the Dirt Monkey, loved that bike! not heard from Steve in a long time though it does whiz up the hill though. 8)

[googlevid]6555036344853915426[/googlevid]

 

[torker]

That small 16 inch wheel was the big difference I bet. If you go to the ebike.ca simulator and put in different size wheels you can watch the torque jump pretty good the smaller you go. I am getting ready to lace a 9C 6x10 in a 20 inch and run 15s to start with. Hopefully I'll get close to 20 mph. and good climbing. I'd be happy with 15 mph. if it climbs well. I can always bump the voltage once I can afford another controller.

 

[dogman dan]

My 6x10 in 26" wheel climbs well on 48v 22 amps. But not particularly fast. Above 10% grades it will slow down to 10 mph, at which point I'll start pedaling. Climbs 7% at about 15 mph. that's at 1000 watts. At 3500 watts it blasted up anything just about. Till the phase wires melded off the windings 40 min later. Just got it up and running on the bike again yesterday, using 72v 20 amps. On flat pavement, I should be able to cruise 30-35 mph. The low amps will cost me on hills, but now I can blast sandy arroyos faster.

Here's some vids of my 9c on dirt trails. The hills are fairly steep in the rollercoasters, but you have momentum going. The long climb to the mountain is not very steep. Helmet cam, so you can't see the motor. http://www.youtube.com/user/Dogman5018?feature=mhum#p/u/22/r5IBcK_puKI

The standard 2807 9c motor climbs well, but not enough to use in dirt unless you make the wheel smaller. On street, it can handle 10% grades, and with energetic pedaling can still maintian 15 mph. That's with stock controllers at 48v.


This vid has a section of very steep hill in it, at about 1:30 into it. Well over 10% I'm guesstimating it at about 15%. http://www.youtube.com/user/Dogman5018?feature=mhum#p/u/21/mJ86sH6PZHs

 

[knoxie]

8) thanks DOG I knew I could rely on you! I forgot you had one ha ha brilliant, I will check the videos out later, I am sure the 9C is going to be fine as an occasional hill climber and for those that are wondering why dont I get another BMC? well I have had loads of them and want to try a 9C is the simple answer I only have 2 BMC that are running, 1 in the BMX and 1 on my daily commuter.
Also the 9C comes in black 8)

Checking the videos later DOG, thanks!

 

[Ypedal]

Wow.. that brings me back !!

The dirt monkey is highly responsible for my getting into this from day 1.

I did put an X5 on my Norco Chaos for a while, but went back to my clyte 409 with beefed up wires on 100v 40 amps, it climbs anything in my area without pedaling and only gets up to 50 celcius on the hottest days.. the 4 series does not have the brute pulling power of the X5 but the 10 lbs less inside the wheel makes a HUGE difference off-road..

At 1000w or less the geared motors are better in almost all conditions, but for 2000w+ you can't beat direct drive..

The 9C is similar the the 4 series performance wise, but it's the sound that bugs the hell outa me.. ( and this is from a guy who also has an Astroflight RC bike with 4 stages of belt/chain going .. that is LOUD but it's a proper sounding loud... ) .. the 9C has a high pitched buzz that i'm not very fond of.. i have one on my BMX and i will run it until i kill it ( I must admit that it's holding up well to some very bad treatment .. ) i prefer the clytes to the 9C.

 

[knoxie]

Ha yes Steve was very instrumental in me getting in to this as well, loved the DM great bike to ride as well, we had so much fun shooting this old video, thanks for your pitch on the post as well, you have pretty much tried everything :lol: you even turned to the dark side with petrol as well!!

This video is old now but again shows how quick the 4 series can be in a little wheel, pretty sure Steve doesnt run the bikes any more, he hasnt posted on any of the big forums for years, I would be interested to know what he is up to.

Heres the video, really funny bit at the end where the caretaker for the local school threatens us with the police for riding on the running track :lol:

[googlevid]3870145323996858207[/googlevid]

 

[dogman dan]

That 409 is also a slow winding, so I bet it does make a nice dirt/ hill motor. The 9c 2807 winding is not so great in dirt, if your hills are any steeper than 10% you'll have to pedal a LOT to keep the speed above 15 mph. The 2810 winding 9c can go 7 mph for a half hour, and climbs most hills at 10 mph on 48v. In those vid's I posted, I actually have to pedal once or twice in that half hour of riding. The majority of that vid is uphill riding.

The 9c does grunt some up the hills, but here all I really hear much of is gravel crunching under the tires. All the good trails are in rocky areas, if not the sand is bottomless and you can't ride at all. So for me the noise is a non issue.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Man, that takes me back. I wonder how Steve is doing?

I'm with Ypedal on this one. 9C is a great motor. Probably best 500w DD motor out there.. on paper.. I've got 3 of them. But I still prefer my Clyte 40X. Slightly less power and efficency, but sublime silence and silky smooth.

 

[knoxie]

Hi Drunk

Yes I must admit when I rode the 4 series motor i was very impressed with it, steve had this one wired with a star delta contactor, I was going round thinking this is pretty quick having not realised I had it in star! ha ha, quick flick of the switch and I was off!

The 4 series is still a great motor 8)

 

[Hyena]

I think even the 9x7 climbs well given a bit of juice. At the worst it slows down enough that I can meaningfully contribute to helping it up the hill by pedalling in top gear. Mind you this is with several kw though it but unlike the geared motors it can actually take it. As long as you're some what careful with it. If you're worried drill it full of holes and go for gold :lol:
Starting from a dead stop on a really steep hill might have it struggling but usually you've got a good rolling start so it's not an issue.
All the videos I've posted of late have been with a 9x7, and even on steep offroad tracks don't beat it. These are the sort that if you lose your momentum on an unpowered bike you'll likely have to get off and push (or struggle up in first gear standing on the pedals)
It's hard to assess the steepness in this clip, but much of it is very steep
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DYz_gLqaCU

Dogman has a pretty harsh testing environment, I dont think it warms up for long enough in the UK for you to worry about overheating one

 

[jlustig83]

Thats a awsome video

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, really nice vid! Amazing how flat a hill looks in video, that section after the subtitle comment looks to be about similar to the steep bit in the second part of my vid. Lose momentum on a pedal bike, and you're walking. Great trails, though, that make a faster winding motor more possible. It's a bit tough to even stay on my local trails at 15 mph, so that's one reason a slow winding works best for me. I'll do a LOT of riding at sub 10 mph, so it makes sense to use a motor that doesn't overheat at that speed.

I also do a LOT of my riding on trails much worse than those blm trails in the vids. Near my house is a large tract of land slated for the bulldozer. Once the economy put the brakes on that development, I started building trail. Making it deliberately too twisty for a motorcycle, a lot of this trail is hard to ride at 7 mph. So the riding is just about as hard on a hubmotor as it gets. Never ever getting to 10 mph. It's crazy trail, mostly flat. But when there is a hill, you are crossing a deep ravine, so any hills you do have tend to be 15%-20% . What's even worse, is any new sections are full of loose dirt till it rains six months later. Those deep sand trails really grab the wheels and heat up the motor too.

I just got my 9c 6x10 phase wires soldered back on, and am riding again at 72v with a 20 amp 9 fet lyens. I'm finding that I do heat up faster now, with about 1200 watts showing on the CA rather than 900 most of the time with 48v. But I can ride without overheating too fast like I did climbing those crazy steep ravines on 72v 40 amps. (2500w). Interestingly the getting hot point is happening at just about the same numbers when measured in WH. On these particular trails where I'm always stalling the motor in deep sand, I should take a break for 10 min or so to cool when I get to about 350 wh used. The break can be either a complete stop, or it can be returning to pavement, and cruising for a bit at a faster speed while using only 500 watts.

In any case, with any winding, the key thing is not stalling the motor constantly like I tend to on narrow twisty trails. Hyena's vid is a good example of how to do it right. Nice trail, wide and straight enough to keep up the speed, which really cools the motor nice. Same watts pumped into the motor cools much faster if you have the motor getting lots of wind, and no stalling. In the end, the motor and voltage need to match the kind of riding being done. I tend to go and find whatever is the hardest.

The other day I went on a day trip on my commuter with the 2807 motor, and climbed a pretty hefty mountain with 48v 22 amps. I did have to get off and walk a short bit, that was 15%. The rest of the two miles of climb was at least 10% and went no problemo. More watts and I would have breezed up the whole thing.

 

[Hyena]

Yeah, really nice vid!

Thanks, I think THIS ONE I did afterwards is much better - more variety of camera angles and faster. This is a standard 9C with just air cooling. I hadn't even upgraded the phase wires when these videos were made. As you can see, they take a fair bit of abuse - IF you're sensible about it.

I know what you mean about tight twisty tracks - there's a circuit near me (video here ) with lots of tight twists and berms that flick from one direction to another. I guess they're not designed for ebikes, moreso BMXs as you can't really get up much speed anyway.
I should reshoot both these videos (or sections of) that show the CA so you can get an idea of how much current the motor is actually drawing in different circumstances. I recorded my commute yesterday and it was good to actually watch the footage back and study the CA. Normally I just glance at it while riding be watching the wattage and amps as you accelerate off the line or power on is interesting to see. I expected it to use a heap in these situations but it is actually more economical at other times than I expected. Although it'd have to be I suppose to average out, otherwise I wouldn't get the range that I do.

 

[dogman dan]

I'm gonna just have to sit down and watch ALL your vids. Pretty clear you can really ride. Mine definitely have a lot more," old fart that doesn't want to break both collarbones again" flavor.

But now we want a thread all about your camera mounts. Any problems with the camera itself? I shook an Epic helmet cam to death in one ride with handlebar mount. So I'm doing helmet mount for the dirt rides. Love the front fender POV.

 

[Hyena]

Thanks I still haven't completely recovered from when I came off and broke my elbow and both wrists but with the gopro recording one tends to ride a bit harder in the interest of capturing interesting looking footage. I've caught 3 spills on tape so far :lol:

But now we want a thread all about your camera mounts. Any problems with the camera itself? I shook a go pro to death in one ride with handlebar mount

My main build thread has all the videos - or you can go through my youtube channel but some aren't public.
The videos start from this page here
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8482&start=153
There's also some pics of my camera mounts in there, including some experimental ones that weren't, well, practical for extended use.
Unfortunately it looks like most of the pictures of my mounts are corrupted like all the other forum pics.

As for shaking a gopro to death - I've given mine a pounding in the short time I've had it! The end of this video shows most of the unintentional cloutings I've given it.

 

[dogman dan]

Brain fart. I did not wreck a go pro. I've gone back and edited the comment. The cam I killed shaking it was an Epic brand cam, like this. http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/3301P_Epic-Action-Video-Camera.html?utm_source=NexTag&utm_medium=PaidShopping&utm_term=Epic_Action_Video_Camera&utm_campaign=PCNEXTAGUS11&codesProcessed=true

 

[Alan B]

On 9C noise - my 2010 rear 9x7 is silent. A minor noise when starting to move, then I don't hear it. I think earlier 9C's covers had more resonances, but they were changed.

 

[Ykick]

On 9C noise - my 2010 rear 9x7 is silent. A minor noise when starting to move, then I don't hear it. I think earlier 9C's covers had more resonances, but they were changed.

+1 here... My old round cover front DD's sing helluva storm but my new "square cover" 9C rear be super quiet.

 

[dogman dan]

Not a 9c motor, but some good vids of an outstanding bike. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CgBsrXmjgM&feature=autoplay&list=ULCC5fYU7ghVQ&index=18&playnext=1

 

[dogman dan]

Here's some new video of my dirt bike climbing some hills. I don't have to pedal till it gets to about 15%, AND the hill is long.

9 continent 2810 (6x10) motor. Lyens 9 fet 72v 20 amp controller. About 1200 watts going up the hills.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Dogman5018?feature=mhum#p/a/u/1/Xj8dvSdWqWo

 

[Alan B]

Looking forward to trying 18S on my 6x10 setup soon. Glad so see you got yours going again. What is the watt-hours per mile you are seeing??

 

[dogman dan]

I dunno, I rarely bother to hook up the speedo so all I get is ah etc. Always very good on those hard packed gravel trails though. Other trails with deep sand, or lots of twists that cause you to start and stop get much worse wh/m. I just showed the hills that bog the bike down on that vid, most of the rest of the trail is rollercoaster. Perfect for pedaling since you get up the other side on momentum. Good for efficient ebiking too.