A little help please - Cargo Hub Motor

[neptronix]

Sadly, a 5kw kit would be closer to what you need!

That's what I'm beginning to think as well. Problem is 5Kw (6.67 BHP) squarely puts it in Motorcycle territory, which will bring other requirements like DOT lighting and Braking.

edit: And that simply isn't going to fit on a space starved velo.

Only if you're honest with the law man, and don't use that 5kw capability to do >60mph, nobody's gonna pull out a dyno where you live and realize you have 5kw just because they calculated off the top of their head how much energy you use climbing a 20% grade..

There is no legal way to register such a bike. Once you are in motorcycle category, you need a VIN.
So fit into the weird gray area of legal ignorance or just build a motorcycle.

 

[E-HP]

EDIT: Correction. Motorcycles, Motor-driven Cycle and Mopeds are now all Class G Vehicles according to the DMV. So it seems that they finally integrated them. LoL they (and Mopeds) apparently also have to be registered, inspected and insured. So where does the inspection sticker go if there is no windshield? That is a change, It's been 3 years since I last had a "motor" vehicle.

Just my opinion, but a lot of laws are poorly written, especially the nomenclature. Motorcycles don't have motors, they're powered by engines. If they're using the same wrong/colloquial definition of motor for "motor-driven cycle", then by logic, they'd be referring to engine-driven cycles. It's always a challenge to stay compliant with vaguely written laws making it harder to be a "law abiding citizen".

Sadly, when more and more folks use the terminology incorrectly, it eventually makes it into the dictionary, which causes more confusion, so the word motor has become more universal. who knows what it means legally. They haven't messed up engine yet...don't hear a lot about electric engines.

 

[amberwolf]

PHoenix has a law on the books requiring a one-time 50-cent registration of every bicycle with a specific department, and put the license plate on the bike, etc, but that doesn't exist anymore, so it's impossible to do it.

It doesn't make bicycles illegal, though--when asked, the city simply says to ignore the requirement.

Some info:
https://azbikelaw.org/wheres-your-license-plate/

So if you have a "dead law" it doesn't mean that the class of vehicle is illegal (it's legally defined); if there's no way provided to register it then that means the government is not able to prosecute you for not doing so, since it is their responsibility to provide you with the means to follow the law--if they prevent you from following the law by omission of the process to do so, it isn't your fault.

If they have a legal requirement to register as the next class up, and state this in the codes, and do provide a way to register that class, then you would have to do so.

IANAL, so you should consult a local one with some knowledge of the specific category.

Not knowing which state you're in, I don't know where I might point you to for resources on that kind of stuff (like the azbikelaw site is, for where I am).

 

[amberwolf]

And don't have to go thru the bicycle drivetrain to use a middrive, and still have shiftable gears. More complicated, but certainly possible.

Well yeah, if you had a rare nuvinci or a CNC machine to make your own transmission with, ha.

No need for a CNC, or a nuvinci. See my other post with a list of various ways to do it (of which there are certainly more than i list).

IIRC, even Numberonebikeslover built a transmission, out of two bike cassettes setup similarly to the common scooter CVT belt drive. He definitely doesn't have a CNC.

 

[amberwolf]

Motorcycles don't have motors, they're powered by engines.

But quite a few do have motors. There are a number of electric motorcycle manufacturers, and plenty of DIY EV conversions and scratchbuilts.

 

[E-HP]

Motorcycles don't have motors, they're powered by engines.

But quite a few do have motors. There are a number of electric motorcycle manufacturers, and plenty of DIY EV conversions and scratchbuilts.

Point taken. The world is quickly changing with respect to electric driven vehicles. When I was in school 40 years ago, the lines were clear, and the professors would scold you for mixing up the two terms, especially the ones teaching the motors and generators classes.

 

[E-HP]

Not knowing which state you're in, I don't know where I might point you to for resources on that kind of stuff (like the azbikelaw site is, for where I am).

I had been assuming West Virginia. To me the WV vehicle code seems to indicate e-bikes are bikes, when you go down the definition tree, but I'm not a lawyer:
http://www.wvlegislature.gov/WVCODE/Code.cfm?chap=17c&art=1

§17C-1-2. Vehicle.
"Vehicle" means every device in, upon or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except devices moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks or wheelchairs.


§17C-1-3. Motor vehicle.
"Motor vehicle" means every vehicle which is self-propelled and every vehicle which is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires, but not operated upon rails, except motorized wheelchairs.


§17C-1-4. Motorcycle.
"Motorcycle" means every motor vehicle having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, but excluding a tractor.


§17C-1-5. Motor-driven cycle.
"Motor-driven cycle" means every motorcycle having a piston displacement of more than fifty cubic centimeters but not more than one hundred fifty cubic centimeters, or with not more than five brake horsepower.


§17C-1-5a. Moped.
"Moped" means every motorcycle or motor-driven cycle unless otherwise specified in this chapter, which is equipped with two or three wheels, foot pedals to permit muscular propulsion and an independent power source providing a maximum of two brake horsepower. If a combustion engine is used, the maximum piston or rotor displacement shall be fifty cubic centimeters regardless of the number of chambers in such power source. The power source shall be capable of propelling the vehicle, unassisted, at a speed not to exceed thirty miles per hour on a level road surface and shall be equipped with a power drive system that functions directly or automatically only, not requiring clutching or shifting by the operator after the drive system is engaged.

 

[NPC Brown Cow]

Not knowing which state you're in, I don't know where I might point you to for resources on that kind of stuff (like the azbikelaw site is, for where I am).

I had been assuming West Virginia. To me the WV vehicle code seems to indicate e-bikes are bikes, when you go down the definition tree, but I'm not a lawyer:
http://www.wvlegislature.gov/WVCODE/Code.cfm?chap=17c&art=1

§17C-1-2. Vehicle.
"Vehicle" means every device in, upon or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except devices moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks or wheelchairs.


§17C-1-3. Motor vehicle.
"Motor vehicle" means every vehicle which is self-propelled and every vehicle which is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires, but not operated upon rails, except motorized wheelchairs.


§17C-1-4. Motorcycle.
"Motorcycle" means every motor vehicle having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, but excluding a tractor.


§17C-1-5. Motor-driven cycle.
"Motor-driven cycle" means every motorcycle having a piston displacement of more than fifty cubic centimeters but not more than one hundred fifty cubic centimeters, or with not more than five brake horsepower.


§17C-1-5a. Moped.
"Moped" means every motorcycle or motor-driven cycle unless otherwise specified in this chapter, which is equipped with two or three wheels, foot pedals to permit muscular propulsion and an independent power source providing a maximum of two brake horsepower. If a combustion engine is used, the maximum piston or rotor displacement shall be fifty cubic centimeters regardless of the number of chambers in such power source. The power source shall be capable of propelling the vehicle, unassisted, at a speed not to exceed thirty miles per hour on a level road surface and shall be equipped with a power drive system that functions directly or automatically only, not requiring clutching or shifting by the operator after the drive system is engaged.

You left out the very restrictive Bicycle definition:

§17C-1-8. Bicycle.
"Bicycle" means every device which does not have a motor attached and which is propelled by human power upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels either of which is more than twenty inches in diameter.

Bicycles can not have an attached motor and must have two wheels in tandem of which one must be larger then 20". So off the bat that makes any e-bike a non-bicycle, it also rules out Trikes, Quads, most Velos (as they often hit two of those being trikes and having all wheels 20" or less) and most foldable bikes that also have 20" wheels. It also rules out the more exotic "bicycles" like the Dicycle. Ohio had almost as restrictive a bicycle definition but about 3 years back now Ohio had to change their bicycle definition to include Qudarcycles after a "unclassified" vehicle case that began in Lakewood.

Of those definitions, e-bikes that confirm to the Federal Commerce definition fall under Moped. Except those that use mid-drives as they require user "shifting" of gears. LoL.

edit: As I've said, conforming to these definitions is a legal CYA only to forestall possible problems. In practice the police generally have better things to do. They often ignore off-road quads on blacktop (which is expressly illegal) unless the operator is being stupid or someone has called in a complaint. On that point neptronix is correct. If you don't act like you have a jet engine under the hood, they aren't going to bother most of the time. But a Velo draws attention by it's very nature and they are going to be pulling me over if for no other reason then because they don't know what it is.

 

[NPC Brown Cow]

There is no legal way to register such a bike. Once you are in motorcycle category, you need a VIN.
So fit into the weird gray area of legal ignorance or just build a motorcycle.

There are ways to get a vin. Go to a junk yard, pick out a wrecked bike (the donor bike) that has a title, take it's vin and register your build as that bike rebuilt. That get's done often with custom builds.

 

[neptronix]

There are ways to get a vin. Go to a junk yard, pick out a wrecked bike (the donor bike) that has a title, take it's vin and register your build as that bike rebuilt. That get's done often with custom builds.

I've never heard of someone successfully doing that in the United States. The only bicycle that has a VIN that i know of is the old EV Global bikes.

 

[Chalo]

There are ways to get a vin. Go to a junk yard, pick out a wrecked bike (the donor bike) that has a title, take it's vin and register your build as that bike rebuilt. That get's done often with custom builds.

I've never heard of someone successfully doing that in the United States. The only bicycle that has a VIN that i know of is the old EV Global bikes.

That's routine practice for chopper motorcycles. Oftentimes the headstock of a motorcycle frame has the VIN on it, so it's cut off and a new frame built around it.

I expect the reasons this isn't done with e-bikes are because e-bike builders don't care and there is no real enforcement of laws concerning them. Heck, here in Austin most of the stinking OEM mopeds lack plates, and nobody pays them any mind.

 

[neptronix]

Right. Common for motorcycles, but good luck getting away with a motorcycle vin welded on to a bicycle frame.

Have yet to see anyone here get busted for high speed in the states; however i have heard of velomobile riders being perpetually harassed simply because cops don't know what the hell the thing is.

So maybe OP has some legitimate reasons for being worried.

 

[Chalo]

Right. Common for motorcycles, but good luck getting away with a motorcycle vin welded on to a bicycle frame.

Have yet to see anyone here get busted for high speed in the states; however i have heard of velomobile riders being perpetually harassed simply because cops don't know what the hell the thing is.

So maybe OP has some legitimate reasons for being worried.

It would be easy enough to build a more normal e-bike around a VIN from a sub-50cc moped, but a velomobile is another story. Besides, the OP's trike is built already.

I wasn't familiar with Rotovelo, so I looked it up. It amuses me to find that it's molded from plastic, like a grown-up version of a Little Tikes car:

To come back to the original question, I think that addressing whatever problems may arise with a mid drive would be easier than implementing a hub motor solution that meets all the criteria.

 

[NPC Brown Cow]

It would be easy enough to build a more normal e-bike around a VIN from a sub-50cc moped, but a velomobile is another story. Besides, the OP's trike is built already.

I wasn't familiar with Rotovelo, so I looked it up. It amuses me to find that it's molded from plastic, like a grown-up version of a Little Tikes car:

To come back to the original question, I think that addressing whatever problems may arise with a mid drive would be easier than implementing a hub motor solution that meets all the criteria.

Ya,ya. All jokes aside they are notoriously durable. And the primary considerations were weather protection and all year driving at a minimal cost. There were a few enclosed "scooters", but frankly they were bad and bumped headlong into the DMV rats nest. While the roto-molded body is very durable, it is also quite heavy, thus the search for some e-assist option.

http://trikeuniverse.com/TRIKE-11617955

 

[Chalo]

I wasn't familiar with Rotovelo, so I looked it up. It amuses me to find that it's molded from plastic, like a grown-up version of a Little Tikes car:

Ya,ya. All jokes aside they are notoriously durable. And the primary considerations were weather protection and all year driving. While the roto-molded body is very durable, it is also quite heavy, thus the search for some e-assist option.

Hey, I don't hate that body construction. I'd much rather take it to the street than most of the eggshells velomobiles are equipped with. Maybe a better comparison would be a roadgoing kayak?

Seems like it would be too hot most of the year, in most places, if you're the engine. That's another reason to go electric.

If the only problem you have with a mid drive is the boom telescoping, then it seems like a through pin would fix that.

 

[neptronix]

I looked at their web page and the yellow and red color did give me a chuckle.
However, i have not seen such inexpensive velomobiles before and am pretty impressed with that.
Hell, i'd buy one. But that color scheme would have to go.. :lol:

 

[NPC Brown Cow]

I looked at their web page and the yellow and red color did give me a chuckle.
However, i have not seen such inexpensive velomobiles before and am pretty impressed with that.
Hell, i'd buy one. But that color scheme would have to go.. :lol:

UtahTrikes offers a "Rolling Chassis" that is only $3,500. That's how I bought mine, since I was going to have to redo the all the gearing anyway (like most bikes/trike the stock gearing just isn't low enough), why get one for $6k and then strip it all out.

 

[NPC Brown Cow]

Hey, I don't hate that body construction. I'd much rather take it to the street than most of the eggshells velomobiles are equipped with. Maybe a better comparison would be a roadgoing kayak?

Seems like it would be too hot most of the year, in most places, if you're the engine. That's another reason to go electric.

If the only problem you have with a mid drive is the boom telescoping, then it seems like a through pin would fix that.

Ya, being warm definitely isn't a problem in most velos, but cooling can be. When I get it I intend to add a air intake to the nose and route it up to the Hatch for extra air flow.

Similar to this WAW: http://velomobilemedia.com/testriding.htm

 

[neptronix]

That's amazing. Never thought i'd see a velomobile offered that cheap.

Remember when they were just >$10k playthings?

 

[NPC Brown Cow]

That's amazing. Never thought i'd see a velomobile offered that cheap.

Remember when they were just >$10k playthings?

Some still are, especially the carbon velos. But a number of models can be had in the $6k-7k range. Quest, WAW and Mango all have base prices in that range. There is a new importer shop in Texas that is opening the first of the year (https://www.bicycle-evolution.com) that will handle importing them to the US.

Utahtrikes literally ordered a couple of Cargo Containers full of them year before last (IIRC).
I can only find this image on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/86061042853131141/

 

[NotTheBus]

Your requirement of reverse gear means that you have to use a direct drive hub motor. Using a MXUS 3005 with statorade and a big battery pack as a starting point, adds some 13kg to your vehicle weight, now at 425 lbm. That is too much for 20% grade, without gear reduction.

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=false&motor=MX3005_SA&batt=B5216_GA&cont=cust_30_90_0.03_T&wheel=20i&mass=193&grade=20&axis=mph&blue=Lbs&black=load

You could do dual Grin hubs in front, but that is some serious fabrication even though they can be made to work. With your questions so far, I do not recommend that route. You would have to learn a ton, and shell out alot of cash for custom machined parts.

Going to the biggest motor that Grin sells, the Crown 40100, increases weight of motor some more, but is max power from a 20" direct drive hub motor. Remember, you need a direct drive (gearless) hub motor to have reverse, without getting clever with custom parts. You are still maxing out at 2-3 with legal power levels, and these are some expensive parts. (phaserunner or 40A controller, 72v high power battery, large motor)

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=false&motor=MTC40100_SA&batt=B7223_AC&cont=cust_40_90_0.03_T&wheel=20i&mass=200&grade=20&axis=mph&blue=Lbs&black=load

In your extreme case of that heavy of a load going up that steep of a slope, you absolutely need additional gearing for the motor. I plugged in an Ezee gear hub motor, still not enough (near identical to MAC) A BBS02 or BBSHD is your easy answer. Another answer would be a stokemonkey type setup. Neither will get you reverse gear, without notable modifications. A BBSHD, properly setup, would probably get you up that hill at around 8mph without overheating.

 

[NPC Brown Cow]

A BBS02 or BBSHD is your easy answer.

I tried a BBS02 on my Quad, which is about the same weight as the Rotovelo. On those slopes it either winches it's self up the chain, collapsing/telescoping in the front boom, or snaps chain. This is the general problem with a mid-drive solution.

As for reverse, I can always use a small dedicated motor and a disc brake cog, like these https://www.unicycle.com/nimbus-club-giraffe-plate-sprocket-for-wheel/, for that since the back wheel doesn't have a break (but the hub is made for disc brakes).

I should have the velo here by Friday, then I can check space/clearance to see what other options may work.

 

[Chalo]

A BBS02 or BBSHD is your easy answer.

I tried a BBS02 on my Quad, which is about the same weight as the Rotovelo. On those slopes it either winches it's self up the chain, collapsing/telescoping in the front boom, or snaps chain. This is the general problem with a mid-drive solution.

These seem like easier issues to resolve than getting a hub motor to meet all your criteria. If you go with a hub, you're going to need more power than your state's moped law allows.

If you try to make it compliant, it won't work on the steepest grades you've stipulated. If you can avoid those worst slopes, maybe you can manage it. But you'll needlessly truncate your cruising speed in any case.

The technical approach that might make a hub motor meet your criteria is to use a direct drive motor, controller, and battery that are capable of much higher than legal output, but have a sophisticated enough programming that they limit torque x RPM output to 1500W at most. I'm not sure how you'd accomplish this without a dynamometer to establish your performance map, plus some kind of closed-loop control computer.

 

[wturber]

The technical approach that might make a hub motor meet your criteria is to use a direct drive motor, controller, and battery that are capable of much higher than legal output, but have a sophisticated enough programming that they limit torque x RPM output to 1500W at most. I'm not sure how you'd accomplish this without a dynamometer to establish your performance map, plus some kind of closed-loop control computer.

This is a good point. West Virginia's moped laws specify no more than 2 bhp motor output. At lower RPMs, direct drive motors are can be fairly inefficient. You could be sending 3000 watts to the motor at low RPM and still might not be exceeding the 2 bhp legal limit. Even at the motors more efficient RPMs, you can send the motor more than 1500 watts. Assuming a peak motor efficiency of 80%, you could feed the motor 1875 watts. Also, as a practical matter you need to ask the question of how closely anybody is going to be checking the motor's power output. If you could find a way to limit motor amps as RPM increases as Chalo suggests, that could be a good solution. I'm not sure that you would need precise dyno testing. I'd bet a simply calculation that tapers power draw as RPM increases would be close enough. I wonder if a V3 Cycle Analyst can do this since it does have some speed feedback loop capabilities.

 

[NotTheBus]

A BBS02 or BBSHD is your easy answer.

I tried a BBS02 on my Quad, which is about the same weight as the Rotovelo. On those slopes it either winches it's self up the chain, collapsing/telescoping in the front boom, or snaps chain. This is the general problem with a mid-drive solution.

As for reverse, I can always use a small dedicated motor and a disc brake cog, like these https://www.unicycle.com/nimbus-club-giraffe-plate-sprocket-for-wheel/, for that since the back wheel doesn't have a break (but the hub is made for disc brakes).

I should have the velo here by Friday, then I can check space/clearance to see what other options may work.

Those structural deficiencies may not exist in the rotovelo, and should be readily addressable if they do exist. The chain problem should be solvable as well. Go to a bigger low gear cassette, and use a stronger (less speeds) chain and cassette. 8 speed might be a sweet spot. Any chain strength issues with a BBSHD have been addressed by the hotrodder MTB crowd, I am sure.

Your reversing setup proposed would work fine. But also note that could be your main drive, you'd only need 1 motor that way. Its a bit more complicated to setup, but could work very well once dialed in. You'd need to gear it to not overheat on your 20% grade, and then provide enough volts /fast enough wind to allow the 28mph top speed you want. Should be doable. Make sure to get some airflow over the motor, dont box it in to your fairing.