A low-cost e-MTB Production log

[flat tire]

You can probably keep all that stuff up BUT you have to come here every day and entertain us. Show us more ebike workshops from your country.

 

[QiaoNan]

You can probably keep all that stuff up BUT you have to come here every day and entertain us. Show us more ebike workshops from your country.

Yes, as long as it is not a network problem, I will come every day. Now I have learned to reply, before that I wrote to everyone, but made a mistake, I clicked! Button, I thought it was a response function. Ha ha ha ha ha, thank a friend named "Mark 5" for sending me a message. Tell me this is actually a reporting function. In addition, I have deleted all contact information. I don't want to break the rules here. I just went to read the FAQ of the website. :lol:

 

[QiaoNan]

definitely influence, OP says that.. but no mention of multiple speed gearbox pedal transmission at these price points.. maybe add another 1K+ $ for that option.. or overdrive cranks could be a bit cheaper option..

You're right. It's almost the most difficult problem I've ever had. I spent a lot of time designing gearboxes. But they all failed. In China, we have a rule. The speed of electric bicycle must be less than 25 km/h. There must be footsteps. More than 25 km/h will be defined as an electric motorcycle. Foot pedals cannot be installed. But I will continue to study gearboxes. Through powder metallurgy, the cost can be reduced and the quality can be guaranteed. :lol:

 

[QiaoNan]

Update 20190806/07/08

【1】
In order to reduce weight and maintain weight balance. We will eventually use this battery box design in the 400w/800w motor version. It is divided into two parts: anti-collision board and battery box. All use 6061 aluminum alloy. T4/T6 was heat treated. Cutting is done by wire cutting equipment/laser cutting equipment. The anti-collision panel is triangular in design, which can buffer and protect the battery and frame when receiving the frontal impact. The battery box is oxidized. Then we mark our logo by laser engraving. It looks good.

【2】
A lot of fine angles have been adjusted. And many pipes of the frame have been thickened. But the look is not clear. The 400w/800w version looks like this. (Please ignore that strange color scheme :lol: :lol:

【3】
A sample was reproduced and sent to my friend's Laboratory for testing. Collision, high temperature, waterproof, etc.
The welding hasn't been grinded yet. It's a bit ugly.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

OP, my advice is to make a facebook page .. its free advertising and could go viral due to easy sharing across wide networks.. a high quality modular design such as this for 1 to 3K $$ has great potential for current market disruption in this bike genre..

Thank you brother. Thank you very much for your advice. I don't understand Facebook very well. Because in China we need to use VPN to break through the "Great Wall of the Internet", Facebook / Google are illegal browsing. But I'll stealthily learn how to use Facebook. But it may take a long time. Now I'm going to finish both production and testing. There are still many problems to be solved. Finally, thank you very much. :thumb:

send me a private message once you have production ready model(s) and interest in usa distribution I could help with social media, marketing advice, product demos, etc.. consider sending me a couple or few bike samples and I could help recruit usa dealers by travel and product demonstration etc.. will you be able to scale up serial production to meet market demand as the product becomes more known and popular?? looks like a great start and bright future 8)

 

[Grantmac]

Estimated weight for a model that peaks at 10-15kw?

I personally don't like the battery crash structure. It adds too much visual clutter.

What is the rear shock length and suspension travel?

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

maybe modify the aesthetic with some carbon panel inserts into the crash guard.. also may be removable..

 

[QiaoNan]

maybe modify the aesthetic with some carbon panel inserts into the crash guard.. also may be removable..

Great. Thank you very much for your help. :thumb: :thumb: I don't have much experience in the U.S. market, and I don't even know much about U.S. policies and laws.

Now I'm making more models. The first batch was 100 sets. It will be finished in October. TIG fixture and tooling will consume more time.After completion of trial production. I can assess the scale of production. :wink:

 

[QiaoNan]

Estimated weight for a model that peaks at 10-15kw?

I personally don't like the battery crash structure. It adds too much visual clutter.

What is the rear shock length and suspension travel?

Peak power 10 kW version 46.5 kg（I'm still adjusting this version.）
Yes, it can be removed if you don't like it. It also reduces weight.
The rear shock absorber length can be adapted from 200 mm to 230 mm.
Front fork shockproof travel is 200 mm

 

[Grantmac]

46kg is quite good. What battery size would that include?

 

[QiaoNan]

46kg is quite good. What battery size would that include?

18650 48v57.6ah 156*3200 5C-10C

My priority is low power. The high-power ones are simply tested. The battery box is too large. I have to make him beautiful. :lol:

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

..

Great. Thank you very much for your help. :thumb: :thumb: I don't have much experience in the U.S. market, and I don't even know much about U.S. policies and laws.

Now I'm making more models. The first batch was 100 sets. It will be finished in October. TIG fixture and tooling will consume more time.After completion of trial production. I can assess the scale of production. :wink:

100 units sounds like a good start..

with reference to the industry, the usa bike and motorcycle markets are currently flat, or low growth... but the ebike and emoto markets are seeing large growth and potential market expansions.. in europe, ev companies and dealerships are everywhere and still growing with surron, super soco, and other brands spreading like wildfire.. the usa has been slower to adopt ev's due to wider population dispersal and urban sprawl resulting in more range anxiety vs europe and other more concentrated populations.. add to that, cycling, motorcycle and power sports purists have also been slow to adopt ev's in the usa.. all while being perpetuated by sport media who also initially looked down their nose on ev sport alternatives and market choices..

but with growing environmental conscious and a weariness of never ending conflict over energy and its security.. with ev's now in consumer and media hands with similar, equal, or superior performance to their petrol counterparts such as tesla, Alta motors, Sur-Ron, etc.. the public, media, and dealerships are now embracing ev's in the usa as well as global shifts towards electric vehicles including many governmental incentives..

therefore, usa ev sales are set for potential large and rapid growth as more companies come to market to fill these niches and existing manufacturers join the ev game...

consider following some footsteps of the industry predecessors and competition.. examples : stealth, Sur-Ron, kuberg, Cake Kalk, Frey, CSC california scooters company, Orion FX bikes, Zero electricross, etc..

stealth and surron offer moped+ power level bikes, yet export them with manufacturer (wire) restricted ebike power levels for (quasi) street legal operation.. in other words, with pedals no one knows your riding a moped/ motorcycle unless you speed over the posted limit, fail to pedal in front of law enforcement, or cause an accident for which you are liable..

and those manufacturers advertise these bikes as for off-road use.. and thereby avoid the moped vehicle classification and associated costs of documentation, testing, etc such as certificate of conformity and or VIN number often needed for street legal registration, operation and insurance requirements.. stealth and surron can then be easily de-restricted by the consumer by cutting or connecting the restrictor wire via forum information to unlock the bike for full off-road power or by going through state inspection for possible in state registration and street legal operation..

meanwhile in europe, australia (and to a lesser extent the usa) where vehicle classification laws and enforcement are more strict.. companies such as Sur-Ron, kuberg, Cake Kalk, and others that started off as off-road vehicles have since, after gaining a market foothold, invested in street legal homolgation to increase their markets.. after all by definition more ppl and sales potential exists in and near populations than out in the off-road areas..

other examples : Zero motorcycles/ electricross , started by a nasa engineer to offer an electric alternative to off-road petrol bikes and initially built on downhill mountain bike components and frame technology has evolved into a full size motorcycle with power and performance comparable to petrol bikes and dealerships across the usa and europe..

CSC california scooter company imports a wide range of china made, japan brand motorcycle copies into the usa with 50 state street legal conformity.. and they have an electric moped, "city slicker" in their product offerings for ~$2.5K, with likely more electric moped, 125 class, and full size emotos coming soon.. pit bike manufacturers such as Orion and FX bikes copy have lightweight 125cc vehicle class, 50 state street legal bikes for $2K and less and with electric versions imminent for slightly more $$..

more examples : Frey, Sondors, and others have used consumer direct sales models to reach the market at often lower price points than the competition by cutting out the distribution network and those added price increases due to overhead expenditures, retail markups, etc.. while other companies have embraced dealership networks as a means of product demonstration, test ride, nearby service and sales, promotional events, and dealer recruitment by travel and social media marketing..

some reference and resources :
wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

EV blogs :

EVnerds.com
electricmotorcycles.news
facebook.com/natas.damien

 

[Grantmac]

46kg is quite good. What battery size would that include?

18650 48v57.6ah 156*3200 5C-10C

My priority is low power. The high-power ones are simply tested. The battery box is too large. I have to make him beautiful. :lol:

48v seems very low to allow good speed using just one gear. Have you thought about a 72v setup with similar watt hours?

 

[QiaoNan]

..

Great. Thank you very much for your help. :thumb: :thumb: I don't have much experience in the U.S. market, and I don't even know much about U.S. policies and laws.

Now I'm making more models. The first batch was 100 sets. It will be finished in October. TIG fixture and tooling will consume more time.After completion of trial production. I can assess the scale of production. :wink:

100 units sounds like a good start..

with reference to the industry, the usa bike and motorcycle markets are currently flat, or low growth... but the ebike and emoto markets are seeing large growth and potential market expansions.. in europe, ev companies and dealerships are everywhere and still growing with surron, super soco, and other brands spreading like wildfire.. the usa has been slower to adopt ev's due to wider population dispersal and urban sprawl resulting in more range anxiety vs europe and other more concentrated populations.. add to that, cycling, motorcycle and power sports purists have also been slow to adopt ev's in the usa.. all while being perpetuated by sport media who also initially looked down their nose on ev sport alternatives and market choices..

but with growing environmental conscious and a weariness of never ending conflict over energy and its security.. with ev's now in consumer and media hands with similar, equal, or superior performance to their petrol counterparts such as tesla, Alta motors, Sur-Ron, etc.. the public, media, and dealerships are now embracing ev's in the usa as well as global shifts towards electric vehicles including many governmental incentives..

therefore, usa ev sales are set for potential large and rapid growth as more companies come to market to fill these niches and existing manufacturers join the ev game...

consider following some footsteps of the industry predecessors and competition.. examples : stealth, Sur-Ron, kuberg, Cake Kalk, Frey, CSC california scooters company, Orion FX bikes, Zero electricross, etc..

stealth and surron offer moped+ power level bikes, yet export them with manufacturer (wire) restricted ebike power levels for (quasi) street legal operation.. in other words, with pedals no one knows your riding a moped/ motorcycle unless you speed over the posted limit, fail to pedal in front of law enforcement, or cause an accident for which you are liable..

and those manufacturers advertise these bikes as for off-road use.. and thereby avoid the moped vehicle classification and associated costs of documentation, testing, etc such as certificate of conformity and or VIN number often needed for street legal registration, operation and insurance requirements.. stealth and surron can then be easily de-restricted by the consumer by cutting or connecting the restrictor wire via forum information to unlock the bike for full off-road power or by going through state inspection for possible in state registration and street legal operation..

meanwhile in europe, australia (and to a lesser extent the usa) where vehicle classification laws and enforcement are more strict.. companies such as Sur-Ron, kuberg, Cake Kalk, and others that started off as off-road vehicles have since, after gaining a market foothold, invested in street legal homolgation to increase their markets.. after all by definition more ppl and sales potential exists in and near populations than out in the off-road areas..

other examples : Zero motorcycles/ electricross , started by a nasa engineer to offer an electric alternative to off-road petrol bikes and initially built on downhill mountain bike components and frame technology has evolved into a full size motorcycle with power and performance comparable to petrol bikes and dealerships across the usa and europe..

CSC california scooter company imports a wide range of china made, japan brand motorcycle copies into the usa with 50 state street legal conformity.. and they have an electric moped, "city slicker" in their product offerings for ~$2.5K, with likely more electric moped, 125 class, and full size emotos coming soon.. pit bike manufacturers such as Orion and FX bikes copy have lightweight 125cc vehicle class, 50 state street legal bikes for $2K and less and with electric versions imminent for slightly more $$..

more examples : Frey, Sondors, and others have used consumer direct sales models to reach the market at often lower price points than the competition by cutting out the distribution network and those added price increases due to overhead expenditures, retail markups, etc.. while other companies have embraced dealership networks as a means of product demonstration, test ride, nearby service and sales, promotional events, and dealer recruitment by travel and social media marketing..

some reference and resources :
wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

EV blogs :

EVnerds.com
electricmotorcycles.news
facebook.com/natas.damien

I'm sorry, my friend. I just saw the news today. Thank you so much. I will translate them and learn from my colleagues. Thank you for all that you have done for us. I look forward to working with you. :wink: :wink: :wink:

 

[QiaoNan]

46kg is quite good. What battery size would that include?

18650 48v57.6ah 156*3200 5C-10C

My priority is low power. The high-power ones are simply tested. The battery box is too large. I have to make him beautiful. :lol:

48v seems very low to allow good speed using just one gear. Have you thought about a 72v setup with similar watt hours?

Yes, 48V is not suitable for high-speed versions. I have communicated with the electrical plant about 72V motor. I also plan to choose a more suitable motor in the high-power version.

 

[Grantmac]

I'll be watching your progress on the faster models. I think there is a lot of room in the market for lightweight electric motorcycles which don't cost a huge amount.

 

[999zip999]

I think you are ok and may need to have the mods move thread to the New for sale section. But only so many bike designs and a lot of it is execution. Welcome to E.S.

 

[QiaoNan]

I think you are ok and may need to have the mods move thread to the New for sale section. But only so many bike designs and a lot of it is execution. Welcome to E.S.

Ok, my goal is to communicate with the guys, because the people inside are so powerful. Mainly to communicate R&D with some of our production methods in China. Wait for the product to go online. I will communicate with you in the new section. Thank you, my friend. :lol:

 

[QiaoNan]

Update 20190824

Sorry, I haven't updated it for a long time. I've been working in GZ, Jiangsu recently. I just returned to Beijing today.

The battery has been adjusted and we decided to use 21700. They have very little internal resistance. :thumb: Temperature control performance is particularly good. And the battery box is enlarged. The larger battery box can hold 48v30ah batteries.

The front fork chooses Suntour with high cost performance.
Disc Brake 203mm+ZOOM Disc Brake
7075 T6 aluminium alloy dental disc weight has reduced some only 360g Haha ha ha :lol: :lol: :lol:

A lot of accessories have been purchased and are being transported on the road.

My supplier friend gave me a big discount so that my product can still be controlled at $1000. :lol:

 

[croydon]

Can you make a motor that can Handel 15kw a20kw and 72v we are interested to buy we won't a competition bike here to do races in europe.

 

[josephm15234]

Looks like Ubco just unveiled a bike that looks identical to the bike you're building. The Ubco FRX1. Unless this is from you unveiling it!?
https://electrek.co/2019/09/06/ubco-frx1-electric-trail-bike-50-mph/amp/

 

[_electricfox_]

Looks like Ubco just unveiled a bike that looks identical to the bike you're building. The Ubco FRX1. Unless this is from you unveiling it!?
https://electrek.co/2019/09/06/ubco-frx1-electric-trail-bike-50-mph/amp/

This looks like Fake-news to me. Just google neematic.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

rumor has it that UBCO is working with Neematic to bring their bike to market and the bike will be on display at upcoming industry trade shows this fall..

reference : https://m.facebook.com/AIMExpo/photos/a.424070680936544/2768837736459815/

however, the Ubco / Neematic bike likely will not be made in china or be priced around $1K - $2K .. such as this iteration described here..

Looks like Ubco just unveiled a bike that looks identical to the bike you're building. The Ubco FRX1. Unless this is from you unveiling it!?
https://electrek.co/2019/09/06/ubco-frx1-electric-trail-bike-50-mph/amp/

This looks like Fake-news to me. Just google neematic.

 

[josephm15234]

rumor has it that UBCO is working with Neematic to bring their bike to market and the bike will be on display at upcoming industry trade shows this fall..

reference : https://m.facebook.com/AIMExpo/photos/a.424070680936544/2768837736459815/

however, the Ubco / Neematic bike likely will not be made in china or be priced around $1K - $2K .. such as this iteration described here..

Looks like Ubco just unveiled a bike that looks identical to the bike you're building. The Ubco FRX1. Unless this is from you unveiling it!?
https://electrek.co/2019/09/06/ubco-frx1-electric-trail-bike-50-mph/amp/

This looks like Fake-news to me. Just google neematic.

Yah it looks similar to the Neematic so very possible they're working with them on it. I'm definitely with you on that about the price. I doubt it'll be anywhere near the $1000-$2000 price range that this is supposed to be. This bike will be a lot more competitive with its quite low price.

 

[John in CR]

Looking good. If you can really hit that price point, I'll take 3 or more. We have the best ebike laws on the planet (and need it for useful practical transportation in this mountainous country with very little cycling infrastructure), and that is it's not a motorcycle until the rated motor output is 5kw or higher.

My only suggestion is don't use tubing on the main frame construction. Until battery energy density increases 3X-4X, the single biggest premium on an ebike will remain space, and tubing wastes space. With a trellis structure you can easily build a frame just as strong and rigid with no weight penalty. In fact, because tubing is equally rigid 360°, and a bike requires far greater strength and rigidity along its axis than laterally, a lighter and stronger bike is possible using metal sheet than with tubing, especially since battery cells require enclosure. For even better use of weight, make the battery box an integral part of the structure, Even if it is bolt on. A sheet metal version can incorporate panels of a different color mounted from the inside to show off a good looking trellis structure, while making it able to keep rain and mud out as well as making more space available for batteries and electronics.

As you reach for the higher power that people want, larger capacity batteries are required. To best deliver whatever people want, I would standardize the frame to accept your different battery and motor options. That will also allow customers to order components separately to help skirt draconian ebike laws, as well as purchase upgrades from you later when they want more performance.

I agree with GrantMac about the battery bash guard. Simply build some bash protection into the bottom of the battery box. You want to avoid the pregnant fish look.