A123 AMP20 cell diagnostics

Power the 1220 then connect the main leds to the battery then connect the balance leds 1-6 to the 1-6 and connect the 7-12 to the 7-12 on the charger. Making sure all is well seated.
I unplug the balance wires first then the main leads after the charge is finish.
Good luck. I have the hyperion 1420 a powerful charger with an over sensitve balance wires ( many error screen ) I just jiggle the wires till I like the numbers on the screen. I'm thinking of a 1220 for next charger

Speedmd you got your message in first. My 1420 will spark in connected before start up ??
 
How are you connecting the battery. If your not making a very solid connection or cables are too long / high resistace it will fault. Andersons will push out contacts if not inserted fully or slightly rotated. The only other thing I can suggest is to lower the input watts as it is looks like the fault is a low power supply fault. On the balance board connectors, The plastic connectors on mine were fully seated into the charger but two of the tin contacts were not fully seated in the plastic end clip. Hard to tell until you looked very close.
 
Speedmd you got your message in first. My 1420 will spark in connected before start up ??
Click to expand...

Interesting, I will try it again after it is powered up. Sparks are not consistent. Some times when connecting the pack back on the bike I get a spark also, and some times none. Lately I have seen very little sparking. Maybe my initial reluctance /slight hesitation around the connections that has gone mostly away.
 
Alright then, We have lift-off.....
lift_off12.jpg

... well, not exactly off-the-ground yet. I was able to get further - the balance charger on "Start" (for 2 secs) proceeds to the next steps: battery check and the screens that display the number of cells (12) and that its charging. After about 3 mins, get the same **ERROR** car batt. empty. Turn off, back on and the same result. Hmmm.
 
speedmd said:
How are you connecting the battery. If your not making a very solid connection or cables are too long / high resistace it will fault. Andersons will push out contacts if not inserted fully or slightly rotated. The only other thing I can suggest is to lower the input watts as it is looks like the fault is a low power supply fault. On the balance board connectors, The plastic connectors on mine were fully seated into the charger but two of the tin contacts were not fully seated in the plastic end clip. Hard to tell until you looked very close.
Click to expand...
Its supposedly a "300 Watt" charger, connected to a 500 Watt PSU. When I made the purchase, I spoke with a sales rep about whether the PSU and charger were compatible and the answer was yes. I've triple checked the connections and all appears OK. I'm using Anderson power poles and have no issue with them.
 
dnmun said:
try raising the power supply voltage. it may detect a low voltage on the input and think your charging source is drained.
Click to expand...
Not sure how to do that. Its a Thunder T350 PSU described HERE.. There aren't any settings or switches or anything, just two plugs red/black and the AC cord. Its what's powering the charger up and the screen displays OK. The "Start" begins a charge and the scree displays the battery pack voltage, which I can see incrementally increasing. Until about 2-3 mins in when "**ERROR** car batt. empty message displays.
 
I suspect your power supply unit (psu). Its voltage might be low (under 12v) or intermittent. Check its output voltage with a multimeter to make sure it is over 12vdc. The T1220 was set to keep you from killing your car battery when used out in the field. You can also try any 12v dc power supply/battery you have on hand such as your car battery as an additional check. The T1220 senses the input wattage and adjusts the max charging rate according to the available wattage regardless of the charging rate that you set.

I use a Astroflight 13.5v psu that puts out about 175 watts or a modified HP server psu that's rated at 575 watts. I leave the T1220 set at 500 watts and then use either psu. However, I seldom use the HP psu since it uses more electricity and I prefer to charge at around 3 amps to minimize heating up the cells. I did charge my 12s 36v pack with the HP psu at 6 amps once with no apparent heating issue so I'm really not sure if charging at higher rates with A123 cells is a problem as far as prolonging cell life. I thought I was going to charge the pack at 10 amps for a really quick charge but have never tried it, but the HP psu cost me only $15 and only needed one jumper wire.

I usually just do a bulk charge at 3.5 amp with Cell-log8s attached to check cell voltage. The pack usually stays in balance by itself with less than 100mv deviation. Every 3rd or 4th charge, I do a balance charge at 1 or 2 amp just as a balance check. I do not use a BMS. I have also lowered my cell voltage max to 3.60v per wb9k.

I also follow dnmun's advice on setup connections. First connect charger to psu. Then plug in psu to AC. Then connect balance connectors, if balance charging. Finally, connect the battery pack to the charger. No more sparks. I previously got sparks if I connected the battery to the charger and the psu was not connected to AC.

Hope this helps.
 
That means the charger isn't getting enough current from the power supply. There is no adjustments for the power supply so you just need to take a vom and check the psu out voltage. It should be ~15V. If you don't have a vom, then take an automotive light bulb and hook it to psu. It should be very bright. The problem may also be in a bad connection, so make sure they are tight. If the psu checks ok, then check the charger amp settings and make sure you don't have them set too high. I don't have a thunder 1220 to test, but it may give an error if you use too high a setting for the pack. For a 12s pack use a 5A charge setting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP8-1pQ2nRg
Yes, always power up charger before plugging in the battery pack leads. That's for any rc charger.
 
+1 per wesnewell

First try using a good car battery as your psu. If that fails, then I think you have a bad connector(s) from the charger. Then return the T1220 for replacement. If the car battery works, then the psu is bad. You can exchange the psu or go to e-bay for a server psu for about $15.
 
Sounds like a high resistance / intermittent connection in the feed or the main charge cables. Are you sure the andersons are engaging fully. Easy way to check is to give a good tug on the cables, trying to pull them out of the plastic body the way they go in. Also what size / gauge cable are you using. 500 watts is fine if it is able to supply it without noise. Turn down the programed wattage and it should see less voltage sag while it starts drawing current. Voltage should be adjustable via a trim pot somewhere on or inside the box, and would turn it up as mentioned before. If not jumper your car battery to rule out the PS will be the quickest .
 
RayGo said:
I suspect your power supply unit (psu). Its voltage might be low (under 12v) or intermittent. Check its output voltage with a multimeter to make sure it is over 12vdc. The T1220 was set to keep you from killing your car battery when used out in the field. You can also try any 12v dc power supply/battery you have on hand such as your car battery as an additional check. The T1220 senses the input wattage and adjusts the max charging rate according to the available wattage regardless of the charging rate that you set.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info, Real learning exercise. So yea. Also, the screen display shows Input voltage at "15.5V" which is right on for the T350.
I use a Astroflight 13.5v psu that puts out about 175 watts or a modified HP server psu that's rated at 575 watts. I leave the T1220 set at 500 watts and then use either psu. However, I seldom use the HP psu since it uses more electricity and I prefer to charge at around 3 amps to minimize heating up the cells. I did charge my 12s 36v pack with the HP psu at 6 amps once with no apparent heating issue so I'm really not sure if charging at higher rates with A123 cells is a problem as far as prolonging cell life. I thought I was going to charge the pack at 10 amps for a really quick charge but have never tried it, but the HP psu cost me only $15 and only needed one jumper wire.
Click to expand...
As far as I know (I've asked and explored) the A123 AMP20's can withstand a high C rate, and can handle fast charge/discharge. I set the LiFe Manual program at 8.0 amps. But also as low as 5.0 amps. Same problem.
I usually just do a bulk charge at 3.5 amp with Cell-log8s attached to check cell voltage. The pack usually stays in balance by itself with less than 100mv deviation. Every 3rd or 4th charge, I do a balance charge at 1 or 2 amp just as a balance check. I do not use a BMS. I have also lowered my cell voltage max to 3.60v per wb9k.
Click to expand...
All I've been doing is bulk charge and wb9k, and others, suggested my pack is getting out of balance (I'm a no BMS guy), and may likely be the primary issue, as told on this thread. My "smart" charger I use for the bulk charge has never charge a cell >3.6V as far as I can tell. It cuts out leaving cells in the 3.3V to 3.58V range.
I also follow dnmun's advice on setup connections. First connect charger to psu. Then plug in psu to AC. Then connect balance connectors, if balance charging. Finally, connect the battery pack to the charger. No more sparks. I previously got sparks if I connected the battery to the charger and the psu was not connected to AC.
Click to expand...
I've tried both ways and believe it to be non-issue. And yea, helpful info & thanks. But....
 
wesnewell said:
For a 12s pack use a 5A charge setting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP8-1pQ2nRg
Click to expand...
Thanks for the video. Yea that's the guy. I cycled through all those screen displays. I'm going to reduce my amperage rate to 6 amps, per his calculation max rate < (300 watts / 42 volts) or 7.14 amps.
[youtube]cP8-1pQ2nRg[/youtube]
 
Try reducing the charge amps to 3. It looks like it is pulling power that the PS does not have. That is why you test with a charged car battery. Also double check your main battery connections at the battery. One of mine was corroded and high resistance which bothered the Hyperion more than the Thunder. Replacing that ring terminal at the battery helped both. The Thunder needs a strong power supply and you may not have one now. I'm running an old 15 volt 25 amp power supply and if I try to charge at 6-7 amps I get the error message you got. It seems happier at 3-4 amps but will go much higher with a car battery.
I hope this helps.
otherDoc

Oh yeah!Connect the PS first to the charger with PS off. Connect the power supply and turn it on. Wait and then connect the main battery terminals to the charger. No spark occurs. Then connect the balance cables in that order. Then charge. Dnmun had it right as usual.
 
docnjoj said:
Try reducing the charge amps to 3. It looks like it is pulling power that the PS does not have. .... The Thunder needs a strong power supply and you may not have one now. I'm running an old 15 volt 25 amp power supply and if I try to charge at 6-7 amps I get the error message you got. It seems happier at 3-4 amps but will go much higher with a car battery.
Click to expand...
Thanks! Tried that, reducing the charge amps to 3 and go through sequence. It starts to charge. Screen display shows it amping up to 3.0 and holding at that. See the amp-hour input increasing. Voltage holding pretty steady, which I'd expect - this is a mostly fully charged pack. 2 mins in and **ERROR**. **GRRRRR**.

I'm car-free, so don't have a car battery to try that.
 
The 12s A123 can take a charge at 15amps. I charge at 9.5 amps and no problem with the cells walking out of balance. Easy way is go open the neibors car hood and use the aligator clips that came with it. I want to know whats up Ark. ? I just want ride my psu over if you were closer.
 
Do you have seats for whitie's trial. I work with a guy how's father butted heads with him. And whitie had to back down. Yes he's a S.O.B. and connected. He's in a rest home now triing to get layed every change he gets.
Plus your weather is a little hard on a So Cal beach bum. Let me look out the window and see the pacific ocean.
 
First try to rule out the PSU. Auto battery would be the simplest test if you can get access to a friend's car. Then double check the connectors from the T1220 to the PSU.

One last thing to try on the T1220 is to reduce the 500 watts input setting to 300 watts, although this works fine on my unit with different PSUs (575 and 170 watts). Mine is set at 500 watts. Also set the charge rate to 2A or 3A. Perhaps your T1220 has newer/different firmware than mine. Everything you describe works similar to my unit except until you hit the 2 minute mark and get the failure.

If this all fails, your T1220 is probably at fault. Have you successfully used this charger before or is this your first time with the T1220?

By the way, I also do not use a BMS. It was an added cost and additional piece of equipment and complexity I did not want to deal with. I also did not want to have to depend on the BMS. An improperly working BMS could do significant damage if you do not regularly monitor your cells. I do use Cell-Log8s to monitor my pack and my "human" BMS works just fine for me. Since you self-monitor your pack, I would not worry about not having a BMS. However, I do recommend you do an occasional balance charge to keep all your cells in balance. That said, my pack seems to keep itself in balance with mostly bulk charges.
 
RayGo said:
First try to rule out the PSU. Auto battery would be the simplest test if you can get access to a friend's car. Then double check the connectors from the T1220 to the PSU.
Click to expand...
How could it be the PSU if its in fact powering the charger?
One last thing to try on the T1220 is to reduce the 500 watts input setting to 300 watts, although this works fine on my unit with different PSUs (575 and 170 watts). Mine is set at 500 watts. Also set the charge rate to 2A or 3A. Perhaps your T1220 has newer/different firmware than mine. Everything you describe works similar to my unit except until you hit the 2 minute mark and get the failure.
Click to expand...
Alright, that's worth trying, but so far I have not figured out how to change watt setting. Any clues? I've assumed that the charger was making an automatic detection of the PSU watts and merely reporting it. You're suggesting its a setting. If so and you can give me a clue, I'll try that.
RayGo said:
If this all fails, your T1220 is probably at fault. Have you successfully used this charger before or is this your first time with the T1220?
Click to expand...
This is new equipment and a first run trying to get my balance charge setup working. It seems like the T1220 works - there's no indication that its not.
By the way, I also do not use a BMS. It was an added cost and additional piece of equipment and complexity I did not want to deal with. I also did not want to have to depend on the BMS. An improperly working BMS could do significant damage if you do not regularly monitor your cells. I do use Cell-Log8s to monitor my pack and my "human" BMS works just fine for me. Since you self-monitor your pack, I would not worry about not having a BMS. However, I do recommend you do an occasional balance charge to keep all your cells in balance. That said, my pack seems to keep itself in balance with mostly bulk charges.
Click to expand...
See above, the full thread, where doing exactly that was recommended by many. So here I am trying to follow that lead.
 
RayGo said:
One last thing to try on the T1220 is to reduce the 500 watts input setting to 300 watts, although this works fine on my unit with different PSUs (575 and 170 watts). Mine is set at 500 watts.
Click to expand...
That's the first suggestion that makes some sense. If the charger thinks the PSU is delivering 500 watts, but its actually delivering 350 watts (its the T350), then it thinks the power source is low and serves up the **ERROR* so as to potentially save what it thinks is a "car batt." So yea, definitely - how do I change that setting? Looked at the "Operations Manual" again with out a clue.
 
As soon as the unit powers up, you must hold down the INC or DEC button to change the values for the input power, timer and/or buzzer. See bottom of Page 6 of User Manual. If the Input Power screen changes to the next Safety Timer screen, just power down and start over again to catch the Input Power screen. You get 3 seconds to make a change.

However, my unit doesn't flag an error if the input power is set too high. My setting is 500 watts even when I use the 170 watt PSU. It is smart enough to limit the charging rate to the actual input wattage. I once set the charge rate to 5A with the 170 watt PSU but the screen indicated that the actual charge was limited to about 3.8A. It's possible that your T1220 has the latest firmware different from mine. Good luck.
 
I do not think there is to many watts as my 1420 runs at 27v 550watts max. and I give it 24v 1100 watts. I think it only uses the watts it demands. And not the watts available. 12v car battery next. Where did you get it ?
 
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