AFT or LR or GNG which is better?

markz

100 TW
Joined
Jan 9, 2014
Messages
12,179
Location
Canada and the USA
http://www.aft-ebike.com/kits--pricing.html

http://www.lightningrodev.com/kits/index.html

http://www.gngebike.com/900wbrushed.htm


What other mid drive systems are out there, besides the Bafang BBS02. Im only really interested in the higher powered mid drive units/kits.
Not so much that RC motor stuff.

I think the $1000 L.R. @ 3000W would kick butt up hills, using the gears. Thats 4x the power of bbs02, 3x for GNG, AFT is too expensive.
 
L.R. is $1000 the other is double, if not triple the price.
And GNG is like 1/3 the price, but 900W, with 2 motors.
BBS02 is like 1/2 the price, 750W and popular.
 
L.R. is $1000 the other is double, if not triple the price.


Where did you get that from are you comparing like for like or the EGO kit?

by the way that LR price is without a controller...

The price of the AFT 48v 1680w extreme kit is like $1859 Aud which is $1336 USD today.

Also that AFT kit has the quality Kelly controller and wipperman chain, if you add those with 2 postages to the LR kit that easily another $250 USD

Hence the difference is really $1250 USD vs $1336 USD where did you get double or triple from ? Are you thinking of the EGO kit as that's about $3500 Euro
 
This is in my opinion* beats them all...

http://www.tangentmotors.com/

Size, weight, power - fits on almost any bike and keeps the bike a bike, yet you have a ton of power to use when needed - plus the guy who designed it is from round your way I believe (give or take a few 1000miles)... always try to support local produce :)

* I don't actually own one of these systems but I will hopefully soon
 
This is in my opinion* beats them all...

http://www.tangentmotors.com/

Size, weight, power - fits on almost any bike and keeps the bike a bike, yet you have a ton of power to use when needed - plus the guy who designed it is from round your way I believe (give or take a few 1000miles)... always try to support local produce :)

* I don't actually own one of these systems but I will hopefully soon

What's so good about that kit ? The continuous power rating is only 1350W continuous ? Ok 4000W peak sounds good but I don't think any normal bicycle chain and derailuers can handle more then 2-3kw anyway without destroying itself very quickly.

ok the weight might be lot less then the bigger motor GNG /LR kits but I don't think it would be much less 0.5kg then the Cyclone type kits. And where that weight is less is on the small motor thermal mass and Tiny ESC .Which is exactly where you do not want to loose the weight as you have no thermal mass to absorb the high loads of an ebike. Hence rapid motor overheat and ESC failures that are not a proper ebike controller .

On endlessphere you will see many people have used small RC motors and for a short time they can work great, but making them reliable long term is very hard since they operate at very high RPM, which means very high wear and very high noise on the gear reductions @ 10,000 RPM , At least other people use belt reduction to reduce noise on the first stage.

And that gearbox design is very complicated and I would imagine quite expensive to rebuild the wearing parts or replace the gearbox for what 3-400 usd every 2000 kms ?. Those AFT/ EGO/Cyclone kits have been known to do 5000 km on a set of gears and then to replace them is like 30 USD from cyclone.

So until that kit proves to be reliable and cheap to maintain it will be like all other RC stuff, good when they work.... expensive to run .... and noisy like humming bees swarming around your helmet...
 
I've been commuting daily on a tangent kit for something like a month now. No issues whatsoever yet. It might not be dead silent, but it's a hell of a lot quieter than any combustion engine.

I don't know where you got the idea that it's only 1350W continuous. The Astro 3210 is rated for at least 2kW, and should handle more fine if you have good cooling (like tangent's finned mount). The cyclone kit's motor alone weighs almost 10 pounds according to their site, which is more than the entire tangent kit, gearbox and motor and mounting hardware and all.
 
The Tangent drive looks very interesting. Very high quality and very lightweight.

It looks like the "bare bones" kit with the mounting brackets, reduction gear-set, and freewheel is $700? And the "ready to run" version with Castle Creations HV80 ESC, Astro 3210 motor, and V3 Cycle Analyst added is $1800?

I would love to test - ride one, I'm sure it would perform well. What voltage are you running? 12S, 13S, or can the HV80 handle 14S?
 
The LR kit is a prototype kit with prototype problems, if you look on the LR thread their is lots of people with small problems that need fixing, aligning brackets, grinding off or stripped bolts etc

Whereas the AFT kit like the EGO and GNG v1 are complete, finished ready to bolt on with the controllers included! the LR kit doesn't even come with a controller hence you are left to get one and figure out the wiring and compatibility issues yourself.

The LR is also a lot bigger with heavier motor and heavy steel brackets vs aluminium for the others. The LR has the huge external belts and pulleys that look nothing like standard ebike parts and there is more risk to get something tangled in them . Whereas all those other kits have compact internal planetary gear reductions.. so not only are they more compact and lighter than the GNG they are safer and less suspiciously over powered looking..... Having so much power and looking like that is a dead giveaway ...
 
Well thanks for the info!

Yeah I dont think I added in the exchange rates.
The Canadian dollar is slightly better exchange rate as the Australian dollar. 1cdn:1.07aus
Unlike the USD which is 1.33usd:1cdn. But I never knew some came with controller and others didnt.



https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kits/ Cyclone, Stokemonkey for Cargo bikes, Urban Commuter M-Drive, MXUS / BTN similar to bbs02, Xing similar to the famous Cyclone and motor looks like it might be the 400W MAC/Kollmorgen used by Currie.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69709

This is what I gathered from you guys and their websites.
I will go with L.R. (I assume its usd - no mention of where they are from) or AFT (aus - got it from their tele #) nice 100A kelly included, I like.

What are the major brands? Bafang BBS02, AFT (3kw soon, 1700w $1900), GNG (wimpy 900w $320), EGO (pricey package deals $3.5k+), LR (800 1.5kw -$1000 for 3kw), Tangent ($700-$1800)

Cyclone type kits -
AFT/ EGO/Cyclone kits have been known to do 5000 km on a set of gears and then to replace them is like 30 USD from cyclone.
noisier than the GNG or BBS02
EGO same as Cyclone
AFT - Kelly Controller, Wipperman Chain, 48v 1680w extreme kit
the AFT kit like the EGO and GNG v1 are complete, finished ready to bolt on with the controllers included
GNG
LR - No controller,
The LR kit is a prototype kit with prototype problems, if you look on the LR thread their is lots of people with small problems that need fixing, aligning brackets, grinding off or stripped bolts etc
The LR is also a lot bigger with heavier motor and heavy steel brackets vs aluminium for the others. The LR has the huge external belts and pulleys that look nothing like standard ebike parts and there is more risk to get something tangled in them .
Whereas all those other kits have compact internal planetary gear reductions.. so not only are they more compact and lighter than the GNG they are safer and less suspiciously over powered looking
Tangent - Accepts several RC motor like Astra at 2kw,
the "bare bones" kit with the mounting brackets, reduction gear-set, and freewheel is $700? And the "ready to run" version with Castle Creations HV80 ESC, Astro 3210 motor, and V3 Cycle Analyst added is $1800?

Oops forgot about the BBS02. Lets see what we got here. 750W, seems kinda wimpy to me. Popular. $500.
 
I was also looking to buy the LR kit and then i saw all the problems people were having on the thread and then when i added up all the costs its not as cheap as it seems as others have mentioned their is no controller and no throttle as well !

but what worried me even more was that since he doesn't sell the controller as part of the kit, its up to you to sort out the wiring and compatibility to motor. This is a problem if you have programmable controller and you need to match the current limits and setting to the motor. I could easily see the situation that if had a motor melt down it would always be the controllers fault.. because its not a complete system, its just a motor. I think its better to buy both from the same place so they MATCH each other and then no one can pass the buck and you have 1 warranty from 1 person for the whole system and how its setup is safer.

I ended up buying the cyclone 48v 1680w with the kelly, and i am very happy with the power ! it peaks at 3000w,

This tangent kit looks interesting but very pricey ! wow $1800 usd i could buy more then 3 of my kits :)

The cyclone kit's motor alone weighs almost 10 pounds according to their site, which is more than the entire tangent kit, gearbox and motor and mounting hardware and all.

Are u sure 10 pounds ? I have my kit off the bike on the bench and i just measured the weight as it always felt light but i never measured it. On the Tangent website photo of the kit on the weight scales, it just has the motor, gearbox, freewheel and mounting hardware and esc. weight it says 3.5kgs and that's without the bashguard which is extra.

And now i measured my cyclone kit the same parts, motor , gearbox and freewheels and BB mount and controller and its 3.9 kg or 8.47 pounds. 10 pounds must be with the chainwheels and BB. So the difference is 0.4kg or 0.88 pounds. With all the money i saved compared to the tangent i would rather spend that and get a new lighter bike ! or the best new high capacity battery cells and i will save a lot more then 0.8 pounds :)
 
he doesn't sell the controller as part of the kit, its up to you to sort out the wiring and compatibility to motor

If you buy a controller from Lyen, tell him its for LR kit and the wiring color-codes and socket will be plug-and-play. If you are using 50V X 40A = 2,000W, the 12-FET with 3077's is recommended. If you get the 4110-FETs, you can use more voltage, but fewer amps (unless you get more FETs, like the 18-FET with 4110's).

Paul at EM3EV.com also is a popular supplier for LR controllers. Both of these controller suppliers are more than happy to program the controller with whatever custom settings you desire before shipping (the Xie Chang based controllers are affordable and programmable, if you want something other than the common default settings). Paul will supply a throttle with each controller for a very affordable price ($8-$12, depending on type).

As far as sorting the motor wires, there are three phase wires coming out of the motor, they can be switched around on the three phase wires coming out of the controller with no damage until it spins in the forward direction, you only need to try two combinations to find one that will work. From either supplier, the controller and throttle with shipping should be under $200, so add that to the total when comparing prices.

You can run an external shunt from ebikes.ca to access the V3 Cycle Analyst heat controls (high heat automatic roll-back of amps), or you can order a controller with a built-in CA socket to reduce wiring clutter. Most customers don't run a CA, but that can be added later if desired.

So far, nobody I know of has fried an LR motor. A replacement motor is under $100, and if you fried the LR small-block, the GNG and AFT are not even in the same power class (they would have fried even sooner), LR has a big-block kit option if you are the first to fry a small block.

_____________________________________

GNG
Lowest price of the listed options by far, and uses an awesome motor. If this is the only kit a builder could afford, I recommend using 36V X 25A = 900W, due to high Kv and too low of reduction (the motor can take more watts, the drive cannot). At 48V you cannot pedal with kit at top motor RPMs, and also: brackets are not as strong as LR kit, so if you use more than 36V X 25A, it flexes badly, and needs a torque strut (easily constructed, review the thread).

The belt system is weak with too small a drive pulley (tooth-skipping). Back-bending belt and high tooth-loading leads to short belt life. The chain primary is loud, but I recommend it for durability. If you are seriously considering the AFT, then primary reduction noise is an acceptable option for you, so get the GNG chain-primary or no GNG.
_____________________________________

AFT
The only drawbacks are noisy primary reduction, and high price. It has a simpler install compared to the LR, and the reduction steel gears can take a ton of abuse, while lasting a very long time. Use the highest recommended voltage specified from the seller, and keep an eye on the amps and heat. Definitely get the heat-fins for the motor, they make a huge difference (as posted by AFT owners). This kit is an easy install and performs well.

The Headline motor is well-known. If you overheat it, get and external controller for the replacement motor, easily adapted onto the three phase wires. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=62589
_____________________________________

LR
The original design had no primary belt or secondary chain tensioners, to make the drive simple and efficient. As a result, both the top half and bottom half had to be adjustable length to properly tension the belt and chain. Many customers had difficulties adjusting the bottom half, so the latest version has a solid bottom half, and a tensioner for the secondary #219 chain.

If quiet operation is a high priority, this is the quietest of the three options. It comes from the factory with two chainrings, which may not be important to half the customers, but this feature was not mentioned before in this thread.

To be honest, the biggest problem with the LR drive is that it is very popular, so it can take up to 45 days to two months to actually get one in your hands. The only problem with its design is that it really does need chain/belt covers, but Mike is swamped by ramping up production. If I had a million dollars, the LR is one of the five E-bike companies I'd invest in. Off-roaders who like lots of power and quiet operation can't get enough of these drives.
 
AFT
The only drawbacks are noisy primary reduction,

That's the other thing i found out researching on Endless sphere, people that have actually installed the LR kit found that its not as quiet as they thought, To get high power you need high voltages and hence high motor rpm. The reduction is quiet but the motor being so large amplifies the noise it seems, hence i went with the cyclone for a more compact and stealth finish. but if i could afford the AFT i would probably get that next time as its about the same price as the LR as some else mentioned above. Just wish their was more people with reviews on that kit here?

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=61364&start=25

Postby givitago » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:22 pm

The motor is the noisy bit for the most part but noise is relative. My Mac was noisy compared to a DD, this kit is louder than the Mac, but it has got to be a lot quieter than a chain primary. My Mac was an older one with a solid magnet shell so it was the quieter type but it probably didn't shed heat as well. The 219 chain is running slowly enough I don't think it adds much noise. The freewheel in the jack shaft is a bit noisy when the motor isn't running - that feature proposed for the CA to add a nominal amount of power when not stopped would be a nice for this kit to keep from having the freewheel noise. Not sure if I swapped out the existing DNP for an ACS crossfire or white industries one, whether that would make it any quieter. At speed, the motor is noiser than my tires. I guess it is a high RPM motor that has an RC type sound. The youtube video I posted highlights it.
 
GnG -Experienced at 48v/1.5kw continuous/2.5kw peak
Other than always having to replace the belt every few hundred km, My old GnGv1.1 belt drive was bullet proof - however it took some mods to get it that way. The majority of noise was the secondary chain from jackshaft to chainwheel...significant noise reduction just by using a properly lubed, quality half-link chain.

The GnG was really easy to install for me on a hard tail with 68mm BB. It did not have any instructions and there are not options available to tailor the kit to any specific needs - you get what you get.

LigtningRods - Experienced at 72v/2kw continuous/5kw peak
Note: Any issue raised by Emaayen in that thread should pretty much be ignored. He didn't know what he was doing. He refused to use the appropriate tools and he refused to take advice and follow instruction.

LR kit is QUIETER than the GnG belt driven kit (at 3x the watts) but you can still definitely hear it. The majority of noise again comes from the secondary chain from jackshaft to chainwheel. It can be quite noisy if it gets loose but when properly adjusted has a low quiet buzz. The belt still looks brand new with over 1000km. I will be testing Grin's FOC Phaserunner controller with it shortly.

When using a recommended torque brace, there is no twisting as was mentioned by previous comments.

Installation of the kit was just as easy as the GnG and by using the appropriate adjusters for the appropriate adjustments, I have had no problems with alignment, as was also mentioned in previous comments. (several people are using the jackshaft to adjust both sides-WRONG-and it's been discussed and also covered in his installation videos). AFAIK, it's the only one of these kit types with any instruction. Mike also provides several options at purchase to tailor the kit to your needs - chainwheel count and size, controller and other peripheral options.

AFT -No experience
I don't have any experience with the AFT kit but anecdotaly I've heard about problems with the kit twisting on the downtube...that was a while ago, I don't know if they've addressed it. I was under the impression that itused cyclone components and had the same relative noise as the cyclone (which is significantly louder than my LR).

I am in no place to comment on how easy the install is or what kind of options the AFT offers.

Tangent -No experience
This kit looks really interesting to me. The flexibility of motor choice is wonderful and really opens up a lot of options with their 80:1 reduction. It sounds semi-loud though video and from what I've read, is due to his reduction approach, not the chain or motor.


EDIT
One thing to add...at 48v 1500w, the GNG and LR kit would be nearly IDENTICAL in performance. I was pulling my son up the ski hills on my gng at 1500w.

The beauty of LR is that it can handle enormous amounts of power beyond what the GnG can handle.

If you're going 'low power', I would suggest GnG over LR. If you want "high power" the LR is well worth it over the continuous modding of the gng.
 
I was under the impression that itused cyclone components and had the same relative noise as the cyclone (which is significantly louder than my LR).

In use i have found my cyclone kit is not that noisy particularly under load the only thing you hear is the motor. It can be noisy if i run high rpm with no load gear chatter or otherwise i have seen people say they get noisy when the gears wear down like on any gearbox design i guess till you replace the gears.....

This is what interest me the most about AFT over my cyclone on their website they show some graphs on how they reduce the noise by something like 10Dba, and if you know anything about Dba every 10DbA reduction is a 50% reduction in noise . So i would imagine the noise is quite similar to the LR which people say above the motor makes noise like and RC motor at high rpm.
 
The motor alone is pretty silent.
The motor and belt is not much louder.
The motor, belt and chain buzzes like a bumblebee when tight and makes a rediculously loud chain chatter when loose (chain).

With everything good and tight and square it buzzes nice when cruising. Little bit louder during acceleration with more amps flowing. My 18v drill is way louder!

Good lubed quality chains and idler added a lot of noise reduction on my GnG (from stock). LR is already there without mods. I'd imagine any chain driven mid would be quieter than stock with just the right chain setup.
 
the AFT alloy motor support looks good though softens with ongoing flex
i think its way over priced
 
the AFT alloy motor support looks good though softens with ongoing flex
i think its way over priced

I noticed in your thread photos you have only one front frame clamp ? whereas most of the other AFT ones I have seen have two, that would explain the flex .

The price is about the same as the LR kit when you factor in the controller and other parts, but its a more compact and less weight it. Actually The AFT looks cheap for the weight and power compared to the expensive tangent for $1800 usd for only 0.4kg lighter weight. On the tangent website they list the continuous power as only 1350w continuous vs 1680w continuous for the AFT. which matches the first few peoples posts I have seen that say the motor/ controller heats up very quickly.
 
I did add another clamp which helps reduce the number of adjustments needed to keep it in check
Only on the warmest of days has the motor shut down due to the motor twisting preventing me from pedaling and changing gear
There must be better value to be had
 
Actually I should also mention that my small block LR is about 1.5x heavier than the gng. I'd imagine the big block to be 2x at least. The super rigid brackets of the LR are easily twice as heavy as the cheap gng brackets but they're pretty much bulletproof for that extra weight.
 
I did add another clamp which helps reduce the number of adjustments needed to keep it in check
Only on the warmest of days has the motor shut down due to the motor twisting preventing me from pedaling and changing gear
There must be better value to be had
The AFT like the lighting Rod has solid distance between the bike chainwheel and freewheel, hence you need to adjust the chain tension every now and then as the chain does stretch over time. If you are too lazy to do that then i have seen on the AFT and the LR they put a spring loaded jockey wheel, that way it takes up any movement or slack as the chain stretches or if the brackets moves slightly to stop derailments... but this will also come with downside of added noise and less efficiency due to the drag. Their is no free lunch here.
Better value compared to what ? The only kits cheaper for the same power and weight then the AFT are the standard cyclone and GNG kits but we all know of the problems thats why the LR and AFT came out, i.e the improved GNG=LR and improved Cyclone =AFT So you want to get all those improvements for free ? If your a cheap skate buy the GNG or cyclone but expect to have their problems.

Actually I should also mention that my small block LR is about 1.5x heavier than the gng. I'd imagine the big block to be 2x at least. The super rigid brackets of the LR are easily twice as heavy as the cheap gng brackets but they're pretty much bulletproof for that extra weight.

Has anyone actually measured the weight of the LR in the same way Tangent dave did ? i.e what is the total weight of the motor brackets reduction and controller ? what does it weight vs the stock GNG as i have not seen it listed anywhere ?
 
The GNG is almost identical to the LR small block motor. The stator on the LR is 10mm wider, so it has slightly more copper mass. The stock belt-primary GNG has the pulley cut out of the shaft material, so the pulley is not removable. The chain-primary GNG has a removable 8mm sprocket. The LR small-block motors all use a smooth 12mm diameter shaft, and he has 25mm wide pulleys in three sizes and also #219 chain sprockets of several sizes.

AFT uses the same Headline motor that Cyclone uses.
 
Back
Top