All should change to faster speed for saftey - way above 20

[Uncle Ron]

One thing to think about. In Terminator One (1980?), it's wholly unremarkable that Sarah Connor rides a Honda Elite 125 to the shops or to see friends. Fast forwards to 2010 and Sarah would have taken an SUV because if she''d taken the scooter she would have been run off the road by an SUV. How did *that* happen?

That's what happens when everyone changes to faster speed "for safety." :wink:

Your thinking is immaculate and wisely amusing. I would only add "and more weight" to faster speed.

How many roads are there that are unsafe at 20 mph, yet safe on a 125? Even in this country, many people argue that 125s are "too slow," and I don't think you would succeed in arguing that ebikes that are even more powerful should be unregulated while they are not. What the regulations should be is another matter.

IMO, any road that is unsafe at 20 mph is by definition a place that nobody wants to be, because everybody there wants to be somewhere else. "Unsafe at 20mph" excludes an awful lot of potential users besides cyclists.

How many would trade registration and taxes for mandated, well maintained, minimum 5-7 ft. wide shoulders on all primary and secondary roads, exclusive of expressways, for small(3ft max width), slower vehicles with a max 40 mph or so. I would. It would take 20 years to fully implement as roads were repaired and resurfaced, but IMO that's about the right time frame for the transition.

 

[Uncle Ron]

In this thread i proposed we be able to go a little faster to accelerate for safety reasons but lots of people are concerned with e-bike laws and speeds associated. As long as you follow the traffic laws I feel no one should have any problem with a faster bike.

You do not even have to have a drivers license to drive a car on the highways or have a license plate - if you legally become emancipated from the U,S. Government they cannot regulate you. ( government laws only apply to people whom are the consented governed)This is called freedom to travel - a God given human right. There is a lengthy legal process you have to go through and this is little known, but it's all legal. Basically you separate your self from the Government and accept no benefits at all from the government. - However, you also still do have to follow traffic laws. You are now a guest in another country and must always follow safety regulations. The point being all these laws are made for US who consent to be governed. If emancipated in this way, I could have an e-bike that does 75 mph with a 2000 watt motor and the feds or local governments could not do anything about it - as long as I follow the traffic laws. I just thought some might find this info interesting. For more info look up laws on becoming a "Freeman".

A lot of people in this thread talk about safety issues also. I say, if your going over 20 mph consistently, especially if you ride at night, brake lights and turn signals must be mandatory for all e-bikes.

ER,

So your solution is to become a non-immigrant alien? Have you done this yourself? Have you an attorney on retainer or are you one yourself for when you claim that governments can't do anything to you if you obey the law, while they are doing it to you? Good luck on signing up converts to voluntary government harassment.

 

[neptronix]

Haha Uncle Ron, i knew you would come around and become an outlaw eventually . I think it happens to the best of us. I am normally a 'to the book' law abiding citizen, but i feel that being able to travel on a few pennies worth of electricity beats being essentially forced to take a car or expensive/unpleasant/slow/inflexible public transportation.

A bicycle is the freest form of transport ever, which is why i love this stuff so much. We are definitely crackpots. But i wouldn't change a thing. I don't give a damn what people think.. whether they think it's really cool or if i'm lazy / have a dui / etc. Okay; go hop in your car and burn some gas mr. holier than thou

 

[Electric Rider]

ER,

So your solution is to become a non-immigrant alien? Have you done this yourself? Have you an attorney on retainer or are you one yourself for when you claim that governments can't do anything to you if you obey the law, while they are doing it to you? Good luck on signing up converts to voluntary government harassment.

Nope.. I haven't done this but I have looked into it a lot and read tons of pros and cons about it. I do not have the need to do this or the money to go through all the right channels at this time. I do not want converts.. just using the info to make a point about laws and how we perceive them - not to advocate getting around the law for personal gain.. When you get into this you learn about the shady dirty little laws, acts and statutes Big or Corrupt government can use against you for their own gain.. even if they are morally and ethically in the wrong. It's interesting to know about if one ever has a need to do this.

 

[JennyB]

How many would trade registration and taxes for mandated, well maintained, minimum 5-7 ft. wide shoulders on all primary and secondary roads, exclusive of expressways, for small(3ft max width), slower vehicles with a max 40 mph or so. I would. It would take 20 years to fully implement as roads were repaired and resurfaced, but IMO that's about the right time frame for the transition.

That's more or less what I've got now! :lol: You do get cars and lorries on these roads, but not too often because it's too difficult for them to pass. Long live thin roads!

 

[jbond]

The political side of opting out of society is entertaining but not terribly realistic. The big problem is that The Man has a bigger stick than any of us do. And The Man has a tendency to do things like use that stick to lock us away and make life generally unpleasant if we get too far from the mainstream.

Back in the real world there's a balancing act. It's probably a good thing that the vast majority of people are constrained to buy certified products with certified licensing regimes. Hence mandatory vehicle testing, licensing, product design criteria, user training, user behaviour limits are all probably necessary even if it means things like compulsory seat belts, helmets, speed limits and reduced power for young users. But we still need to leave room for the mavericks, entrepreneurs and experimenters. The world would be a poorer place if people like Cedric Lynch weren't allowed to build and run their own completely unconventional vehicles.

So perhaps we need single vehicle testing modelled on the UK approach as well as bulk manufacturer (BMW) testing modelled on the German TUV and perhaps something in the middle to cope with relatively low volume manufacturing such as the Vectrix or Tracer. In other words, it should be possible and not unreasonably hard for a DIYer to build pretty much anything and use it on the road provided they meet some basic safety criteria. If you want to build an electrically powered 90 mph streamliner for the road, have at it. Just provide a mechanism whereby the state can check that it's got brakes to protect you and other people from your work.

The unmitigated joy of E-Bikes is that it's still a bicycle. And for the moment that means we can ride anonymous, invisible, unlicensed and generally completely below the law's radar as long as we still look like a bicycle doing bicycle things. We're Ninjas! Long may it last!

 

[x88x]

On the original point of this thread, I heartily agree. It looks like Maryland is a bit more lax in their laws than some other states..30mph max speed limit on any 'moped' (1.5HP ie ~1100W limit, 50cc limit if ICE, human powered with motor assist, must have functioning pedals, 2-3 wheels with one at least 14" in dia) and 'motor scooters' (2.7HP ie ~2000W limit, 50cc limit if ICE, step-through chassis, automatic transmission, 2 wheels with one at least 10" dia). Personally, anything I build will have a functional top speed of probably ~40-45, for the performance reasons listed, but be electrically limited to 35 (an electric limiter that can be disabled relatively easily in case of an emergency) and be able to get there in no time flat. I strongly agree that it is better to have the power to get yourself out of a bad situation, even if doing so might temporarily put you outside the law.

As for the 'Freeman' stuff...even if it is possible and legal (something I rather doubt, but let's assume that it is, for the sake of argument), IMO it's highly irresponsible and just plain naive. Saying you want to "opt out of society" could conceivably have some merit if you wanted to completely remove yourself from society, but that is not how I have seen it presented thus far. Like John pointed out, by riding on the roadways you're accepting benefits from the government's transportation administration, ie, not removing yourself from society. I looked over some of the stuff in the links provided for that movement, and tbh, to me it sounds like just another new-age-esque movement with a political component that basically boils down to "I don't like the government, so I'm going to make up some reason why I think it's illegitimate". Yes, sure, you are free to disagree with them, you're free to try and change them, you're even free to leave and make your own. But to just up and decide that because you don't agree with what they're doing, they suddenly don't have any control over you is just naive. Wiktionary puts it well: "Government - The body with the power to make and/or enforce laws to control a country, land area, people, or organisation." Democracies, republics, and the like are rather unique in that the majority has to agree to accept that government, but just because one person decides that the laws of the country that they live in shouldn't apply to them anymore doesn't make it true. And even if it did, would you still expect to use the transportation infrastructure? How about the electrical infrastructure? Communications infrastructure? If someone breaks into your home, are you going to call the police? What if your house catches fire...still gonna call the fire department? If you break your leg or slice open a major artery and are lying on the floor in pain or bleeding out...are you going to call an ambulance? if you answered yes to any of those questions and still don't see a problem with that position...you might want to re-think some things. You can't "opt out of society" and still expect to benefit from the trappings of that society...it's self contradictory. The only reason that society as a whole works at all is because enough people think past their own selfish needs and desires, to consider and work to achieve the needs and desires of the whole. Besides, at the root of what seems to be the problem for the 'Freeman' movement, the truth is that the governments of the vast majority of countries are just too busy merely keeping society functioning to even think about trying to create these elaborate conspiracies that people seem to insist on inventing.

 

[wineboyrider]

Just provide a mechanism whereby the state can check that it's got brakes to protect you and other people from your work.

Brakes!? What the hell are they for! I ride my ezip without them all the time.hehe.
Can I opt out of the naked body scanners! George Orwell would become an alcoholic like Steinbeck if he saw some of the shit people put up with today...
Opt out sounds good, because when the time comes to opt out I'm opting my ass into the mountains!