TylerDurden
100 GW
Sounds like they did, if you consider using assistance for hills.dougnutz said:
All should change to faster speed for saftey - way above 20
- Thread starter Electric Rider
- Start date
dogman dan
1 PW
Yep, that defenition exactly describes my 6x10 9 continent motor on 48v. Slow, but it's a climber.
Speed limits make some sense to me, though 20 is a bit slow for street riding. 25 mph on a 25 mph street should be legal. But power limits below the same power a gas moped can have is not so sensible. 2000 watts, and the coresponding ability to get out of the way is not a problem provided the rider obeys a speed limit.
In the end, I felt the best approach for me was to make my street bikes close to federal law legal. So my 2807 motor runs on 36v, and can reach 23 mph. My 6x10 runs on 48v for better climbing and goes about 21 mph. Both have about 1000 watts but who can prove they aren't 750 w out on the road? My reason for this, is I don't want to be riding so fast that I get local cops interested in kicking me off the bike trail that is a LOT safer to ride than the street.
If I wasn't riding on the bike trail, I'd be riding faster for sure, 30 mph at least. Cops here ignore you till you are laying there bleeding. Cars with no licence plate drive around all day here.
Speed limits make some sense to me, though 20 is a bit slow for street riding. 25 mph on a 25 mph street should be legal. But power limits below the same power a gas moped can have is not so sensible. 2000 watts, and the coresponding ability to get out of the way is not a problem provided the rider obeys a speed limit.
In the end, I felt the best approach for me was to make my street bikes close to federal law legal. So my 2807 motor runs on 36v, and can reach 23 mph. My 6x10 runs on 48v for better climbing and goes about 21 mph. Both have about 1000 watts but who can prove they aren't 750 w out on the road? My reason for this, is I don't want to be riding so fast that I get local cops interested in kicking me off the bike trail that is a LOT safer to ride than the street.
If I wasn't riding on the bike trail, I'd be riding faster for sure, 30 mph at least. Cops here ignore you till you are laying there bleeding. Cars with no licence plate drive around all day here.
wineboyrider
1 MW
Agree totally. And I have cousins with 2002 stickers still on their cars. Lmao.
docnjoj
1 GW
In the places that we ride (private property of institutions like hospitals) we need to slow down and act like bicycles most times. This works on local streets as well. Car drivers don't have a clue that you are going over 20 mph, especially at night. If you go 12 to 15 mph they know how and when it is safe to pass.
otherDoc
otherDoc
John in CR
100 TW
docnjoj said:
Since many of them drive so poorly they shouldn't be allowed behind the wheel, I don't like the decision to pass to rest with them, especially since that requires an assumption that they see me. Conditions are so different everywhere that we all have to come with our own strategies for staying safe. For me, that could never include typical store-bought ebike max speed and acceleration if my location required mixing with cars, so stateside I'd need an emoto in most locales.
-For riding in the city like GCinDC, a high power ebike is just the ticket.
-In Houston or Dallas, forget it. Even an emoto probably isn't going to cut it.
-In New Orleans, a high power ebike would be ideal transportation as long as it's dual suspension with lots of travel.
-In a small town in southern Alabama, legal ebike speeds might cut it terms of safety, but I don't ride just to ride very often. I ride to get places, and doing so quicker than is possible by car is a big reason I ride ebikes.
I did come up with one detriment of strong acceleration. That is the throttle becoming more sensitive and more care is required to avoid a jerky ride. An easy fix is having a 3 speed switch with a programmable controller. Since it works as 3 settings of throttle ratio, you can program it how you want so you have a setting for lazy riding.
John
John in CR
100 TW
wineboyrider said:Agree totally. And I have cousins with 2002 stickers still on their cars. Lmao.
There aren't many traffic police here, but unless you drive only at night when almost none are out, then you have to keep up with your annual inspection and registration payments. That's the one thing they are sticklers about and what transit police look for.
dougnutz
100 W
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2010
- Messages
- 138
TylerDurden said:
Well the legal definition says "on level ground" my pharaphrase didn't.
I'm only an average rider and I can maintain 17mph for longer distances and sprint at 22-23 for a few miles. I tend to think 20 mph is just not well thought out. It's like saying you must go slower than an average rider because you have electric assistance.
I tend to agree with dogman that 25 ish seems about right. I'm still new at this but it seems like most of the time I find myself commuting at about 23-24 mph. That is in a range where I can still pedal and assist the bike, so the battery lasts longer, and greatly reduces my commute.
AussieJester
1 TW
TylerDurden said:Matt Gruber got a FL judge to buy it...dogman said:But that doesn't mean you can't quote the fed definition all day and get people to buy your story.
Works for 'Safe' he's been quoting it for years :lol:
KiM
Electric Rider said:
Us roadies don't average 30+mph, though we can often get up to those speeds in favorable conditions, upwards of 50+mph down hills.
They get by, sitting in that gray area due to the fact that there are so few of them out there that can really move at 25mph on flat roads. In a way, they earn that special right because it's damn hard to do.
But seriously, how much of a problem is it to have an "illegal" ebike? Do you really have cops pulling you over and testing the bikes top speed for legality? Build a 30mph ebike, then ride it responsibly (you can likely go 25) and you won't draw attention.
wineboyrider
1 MW
Here they don't seem to care. :wink:
wineboyrider said:
IMHO, it would be bitchin' to convert a Honda Elite. Those things weigh about 100-150lbs tops.
But it sucks how we exist in a middle ground :/ Let's be honest... 20mph is not very useful.
Lessss
1 MW
YES. Had a customer bought a converted regular bike to ebike as he had a DUI. He got pulled over and arrested. His friend who does not have a license was told to drive the bike home. Apparently if you have a DUI an Ebike is a motor vehicle but if you simply don't have a license it's a bicycle.
Officer Loanus. Yes a low asshole.
Uncle Ron
100 W
neptronix,
But...
20mph is extremely useful in a higher traffic urban environment where I can, on average, keep up with the car traffic, and any more than 20 mph on a bike is downright dangerous for cars and bikes alike. As several have pointed out here, in that sort of environment when an auto driver sees a bike on the road they have certain expectations about how quickly that vehicle will impinge on their road sphere. If the bike is traveling much above 15-20mph it is beyond their expectations and will likely result in a small vehicle, big vehicle confrontation. Bicycles simply do not have the accident avoiding capabilities at speed that 4 wheeled vehicles have. To expect the drivers in 4 wheeled vehicles to have the visual accuity to judge accurately the tragectory of the small bicycle moving at more than 20mph is a bridge too far in expectations, not even accounting for idiots in the cars.
However, all that said, 20 mph is not very useful in a suburban environment where car speeds are 15-20mph faster. I don't mind being passed in the city by a car going 10-15mph faster than I can go. I feel confident that most of the time both of us can react fast enough if something goes awry. That is right out the window when cars are passing me going 25-30mph faster than I am as is often the case in the burbs. It's uncomfortable, stressful and far more dangerous for all concerned, and laws and classes of vehicles need to be adapted to that environment, IMO. What that says about e-bikes as anything more than bike path and sidewalk shop hoppers, I just don't know. There ought to be some flexibility for DIYers who soup up their e-bikes to do 35-45 mph so as to be less of a danger to themselves and those they share the road with in faster than urban environments, but to expect that flexibility to come from the Barney Fifes of the local constabulary is expecting a lot. It would mean redefining local traffic control in favor of state and federal strictures and that just ain't gonna happen. So yeah, we are definitely in the middle of impossible.
Or an improperly defined ground. My opinions have slid along the continuum a bit due to some fine thought and writing on this thread. I couldn't have imagined agreeing with a 45 mph top flat speed, but now I can, but only to have the power to maintain 30-35mph on hills.neptronix said:
But...
I'll draw the line on that statement, because it's like saying that a human powered bike isn't useful, and that's nonsensical.
20mph is extremely useful in a higher traffic urban environment where I can, on average, keep up with the car traffic, and any more than 20 mph on a bike is downright dangerous for cars and bikes alike. As several have pointed out here, in that sort of environment when an auto driver sees a bike on the road they have certain expectations about how quickly that vehicle will impinge on their road sphere. If the bike is traveling much above 15-20mph it is beyond their expectations and will likely result in a small vehicle, big vehicle confrontation. Bicycles simply do not have the accident avoiding capabilities at speed that 4 wheeled vehicles have. To expect the drivers in 4 wheeled vehicles to have the visual accuity to judge accurately the tragectory of the small bicycle moving at more than 20mph is a bridge too far in expectations, not even accounting for idiots in the cars.
However, all that said, 20 mph is not very useful in a suburban environment where car speeds are 15-20mph faster. I don't mind being passed in the city by a car going 10-15mph faster than I can go. I feel confident that most of the time both of us can react fast enough if something goes awry. That is right out the window when cars are passing me going 25-30mph faster than I am as is often the case in the burbs. It's uncomfortable, stressful and far more dangerous for all concerned, and laws and classes of vehicles need to be adapted to that environment, IMO. What that says about e-bikes as anything more than bike path and sidewalk shop hoppers, I just don't know. There ought to be some flexibility for DIYers who soup up their e-bikes to do 35-45 mph so as to be less of a danger to themselves and those they share the road with in faster than urban environments, but to expect that flexibility to come from the Barney Fifes of the local constabulary is expecting a lot. It would mean redefining local traffic control in favor of state and federal strictures and that just ain't gonna happen. So yeah, we are definitely in the middle of impossible.
jbond
100 W
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2010
- Messages
- 204
Seems to me that this boils down to a simple question. Do you want a bicycle that takes the pain out of hills or do you want a moped/motorcycle.
And there's a deeper issue here. Bicycles with a little assist make a huge amount of sense but widespread use means a big change in society in a lot of places round the world. Similarly, the idea of using moped/scooter/motorcycle for basic transport and for short range utility is also a big change in many places round the world. Since we're mainly talking about the USA here, both ideas are very left field at the moment in terms of both public acceptance and transport policy. Go to many of the big European or even more so the SE Asian cities and it's completely the reverse.
One thing to think about. In Terminator One (1980?), it's wholly unremarkable that Sarah Connor rides a Honda Elite 125 to the shops or to see friends. Fast forwards to 2010 and Sarah would have taken an SUV because if she''d taken the scooter she would have been run off the road by an SUV. How did *that* happen?
And there's a deeper issue here. Bicycles with a little assist make a huge amount of sense but widespread use means a big change in society in a lot of places round the world. Similarly, the idea of using moped/scooter/motorcycle for basic transport and for short range utility is also a big change in many places round the world. Since we're mainly talking about the USA here, both ideas are very left field at the moment in terms of both public acceptance and transport policy. Go to many of the big European or even more so the SE Asian cities and it's completely the reverse.
One thing to think about. In Terminator One (1980?), it's wholly unremarkable that Sarah Connor rides a Honda Elite 125 to the shops or to see friends. Fast forwards to 2010 and Sarah would have taken an SUV because if she''d taken the scooter she would have been run off the road by an SUV. How did *that* happen?
Uncle Ron, i suppose i didn't explain myself too well
I started out wanting just a pedal assist and within 2 hours of eBiking realized that this form of transport can be so much more. I want to sell my car and never drive again, but i don't want to be constrained to my city at the same time. I find myself in dangerous situations with my kit that's only capable of 15-18mph, so i stay off a lot of roads and find myself to be constrained when on the eBike, so often i just get in the car instead. This makes the eBike more of a toy and not a transportation solution to me.
I pedal like a bat out of hell and find that a 20mph eBike isn't a hell of a lot faster than my normal to peak pedal power.
I also don't like to be in the way of cars ever. I believe the safest way to ride is to get the hell out of the way & that requires some speed/acceleration that a standard 20mph type kit just won't do.
A scooter won't work for me, too heavy, and how do you realistically protect one from theft? oh and parking...
So count me in as one of the "illegals" on here pushing for 30mph with my next build. I want my eBike to be much more than a weekend toy.
I started out wanting just a pedal assist and within 2 hours of eBiking realized that this form of transport can be so much more. I want to sell my car and never drive again, but i don't want to be constrained to my city at the same time. I find myself in dangerous situations with my kit that's only capable of 15-18mph, so i stay off a lot of roads and find myself to be constrained when on the eBike, so often i just get in the car instead. This makes the eBike more of a toy and not a transportation solution to me.
I pedal like a bat out of hell and find that a 20mph eBike isn't a hell of a lot faster than my normal to peak pedal power.
I also don't like to be in the way of cars ever. I believe the safest way to ride is to get the hell out of the way & that requires some speed/acceleration that a standard 20mph type kit just won't do.
A scooter won't work for me, too heavy, and how do you realistically protect one from theft? oh and parking...
So count me in as one of the "illegals" on here pushing for 30mph with my next build. I want my eBike to be much more than a weekend toy.
JennyB
1 kW
jbond said:
That's what happens when everyone changes to faster speed "for safety." :wink:
How many roads are there that are unsafe at 20 mph, yet safe on a 125? Even in this country, many people argue that 125s are "too slow," and I don't think you would succeed in arguing that ebikes that are even more powerful should be unregulated while they are not. What the regulations should be is another matter.
IMO, any road that is unsafe at 20 mph is by definition a place that nobody wants to be, because everybody there wants to be somewhere else. "Unsafe at 20mph" excludes an awful lot of potential users besides cyclists.
dogman dan
1 PW
Just sold my 150cc scooter a few months ago. I wasn't riding it much because on surface streets it was only about 10 min faster to work than the ebike going 20 mph. Mostly that is because the bike trail gets to take a shortcut under I 25 and avoid several lights. But to take I 25 with a top speed of 55 mph was unsafe. Lots of 75 mph trucks missing me by an inch because they pass me using half of my lane. So for the highway at least, only a 90 mph bike was going to be " safe" .
Interestingly, on the way to sell the scoot, I watched two cars brutally sandwich a guy on a harley at a stop light on a 45 mph road. Gave me a new perspective on how safe it might be to get out in the lane, even if you can keep up. Imagine how much harder to notice the ebike would be compared to a harley. Slow and off the side of the road IN A BIKE LANE feels safer even if it's not. Riding the stripe never feels safe cuz it's not.
Hiding from traffic on bike trails bike lanes and back streets at 20-30 mph is still the safest solution for me at this time, riding in this city. But if I do ride the bike trail, I have to admit, it's hard to ride 20 mph when the bike goes 30. So I put a slower motor on the bike. I just have a bad bad right hand and always will I think. Fortunately this year the bad hand got to race a few times. It makes the hand feel real good, and it's not as hazardous as riding in DC.
Oh, and how'd that happen? ( the scoot to suv) Am I the only one that was working age, and slaved for no money in 1980? Man did it ever trickle down slow that recession. Lucky if you could afford a scooter then. ( I had a honda CB 125) But as soon as I did make some money, I bought a used cherokee. :lol:
Interestingly, on the way to sell the scoot, I watched two cars brutally sandwich a guy on a harley at a stop light on a 45 mph road. Gave me a new perspective on how safe it might be to get out in the lane, even if you can keep up. Imagine how much harder to notice the ebike would be compared to a harley. Slow and off the side of the road IN A BIKE LANE feels safer even if it's not. Riding the stripe never feels safe cuz it's not.
Hiding from traffic on bike trails bike lanes and back streets at 20-30 mph is still the safest solution for me at this time, riding in this city. But if I do ride the bike trail, I have to admit, it's hard to ride 20 mph when the bike goes 30. So I put a slower motor on the bike. I just have a bad bad right hand and always will I think. Fortunately this year the bad hand got to race a few times. It makes the hand feel real good, and it's not as hazardous as riding in DC.
Oh, and how'd that happen? ( the scoot to suv) Am I the only one that was working age, and slaved for no money in 1980? Man did it ever trickle down slow that recession. Lucky if you could afford a scooter then. ( I had a honda CB 125) But as soon as I did make some money, I bought a used cherokee. :lol:
John in CR
100 TW
Lessss said:
The cop knew him, or saw him leaving a bar, or saw that he was drunk. It sounded like the situation was handled perfectly. High power ebikes should not be a convenient out for those who lost their license to DUI. Apparently those on ebikes are already seen as DUI likely violators in some areas, a stigma we don't want, just like we don't want drunks riding ebikes.
I know we have some DUI offenders as members, and I'm sorry guys but I look at the cause as a whole. FWIW I got one too over 20 years ago, and paid my price. A high power ebike as an option would have been doing me a favor instead of punishment, which is supposed to be a deterrent.
John
John in CR
100 TW
jbond said:
Something in between that can only be DIY'd at this moment in time. It would be far lighter than motorcycles, but with a longer wheelbase than any mass produced 2 wheelers to enable more utility in terms of loads and passengers. As a pedalist you would call it a moped/motorcycle, while I would call it the SUV of ebikes.
Electric Rider
10 mW
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2010
- Messages
- 25
In this thread i proposed we be able to go a little faster to accelerate for safety reasons but lots of people are concerned with e-bike laws and speeds associated. As long as you follow the traffic laws I feel no one should have any problem with a faster bike.
You do not even have to have a drivers license to drive a car on the highways or have a license plate - if you legally become emancipated from the U,S. Government they cannot regulate you. ( government laws only apply to people whom are the consented governed)This is called freedom to travel - a God given human right. There is a lengthy legal process you have to go through and this is little known, but it's all legal. Basically you separate your self from the Government and accept no benefits at all from the government. - However, you also still do have to follow traffic laws. You are now a guest in another country and must always follow safety regulations. The point being all these laws are made for US who consent to be governed. If emancipated in this way, I could have an e-bike that does 75 mph with a 2000 watt motor and the feds or local governments could not do anything about it - as long as I follow the traffic laws. I just thought some might find this info interesting. For more info look up laws on becoming a "Freeman".
A lot of people in this thread talk about safety issues also. I say, if your going over 20 mph consistently, especially if you ride at night, brake lights and turn signals must be mandatory for all e-bikes.
You do not even have to have a drivers license to drive a car on the highways or have a license plate - if you legally become emancipated from the U,S. Government they cannot regulate you. ( government laws only apply to people whom are the consented governed)This is called freedom to travel - a God given human right. There is a lengthy legal process you have to go through and this is little known, but it's all legal. Basically you separate your self from the Government and accept no benefits at all from the government. - However, you also still do have to follow traffic laws. You are now a guest in another country and must always follow safety regulations. The point being all these laws are made for US who consent to be governed. If emancipated in this way, I could have an e-bike that does 75 mph with a 2000 watt motor and the feds or local governments could not do anything about it - as long as I follow the traffic laws. I just thought some might find this info interesting. For more info look up laws on becoming a "Freeman".
A lot of people in this thread talk about safety issues also. I say, if your going over 20 mph consistently, especially if you ride at night, brake lights and turn signals must be mandatory for all e-bikes.
jbond
100 W
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2010
- Messages
- 204
John in CR said:
Indeed. I dream of a LWB e-assist recumbent with a semi-enclosed fairing that did 50mph or so as a utility vehicle. Something like a 2 wheeled velomobile. It should be able to hold me and 4 bags of groceries. If I got there it would have to be registered, tested, taxed and insured as a motorcycle. And it's not clear to me at all how to go about building one.
That's a long way from the other dream which is a very conventional hybrid bicycle with just enough e-assist to take the sting out of the hills. I think I nearly know now (after 3 months research and buying an Alien Aurora) how to build that one.
John in CR
100 TW
Electric Rider said:
Electric Rider,
I don't know where you're getting your info, but that emancipation idea certainly isn't going to fly, since using the roadways is accepting benefits from the government. Even if it did fly legally, it wouldn't be worth the trouble of every cop seeing your car without plates impounding the car and hauling you away.
It's an intriguing concept though. Got any links?
John
Electric Rider
10 mW
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2010
- Messages
- 25
John in CR said:
Info sources:
http://worldfreemansociety.org/Welcome+Page
http://www.freemanontheland.com/
Examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h09qq5RcDpY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cci5MSvsSmc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN2BddddPmY&feature=related
Debunkers:
http://www.examiner.com/skepticism-in-denver/the-freeman-on-the-land-myth-debunked
This is classic disinfo. It's full of holes and misinformation and does not even address the real issues.
The Freeman movement is real and can be done legally to separate yourself from the system. This has to be done via the proper channels because the minute you are born into a country you become a ward of that country and are subject to the laws. Many people do get stopped everyday by the cops but once the cops check out how these people are legal under the laws they are let go. As you can see in one of the videos, the person being stopped has proper paperwork to show the cops.. the cops call it in and check him out - then they let him go.
Just because we are born into a country we do not Have to consent to be governed to that country. In most civilized countries there are legal channels to do this process. Other poorer countries you are under dictatorships and are not so lucky.
It's just a different way to live without the influence of a corrupt government - but one that carries much more responsibility. One must know the laws, acts and statutes, and know the difference between them. One must act accordingly under the law in that this does not give them a free pass to commit crimes. Many of the things we think are laws are not laws at all and we do not have to be subject to - but other things will still apply when it's for the greater good of the people, like theft and harm to others.
Uncle Ron
100 W
John,
LOL I thought that story was a little Paul Harvey, "And now for the rest of the story!," myself.
LOL I thought that story was a little Paul Harvey, "And now for the rest of the story!," myself.
John in CR said:
Uncle Ron
100 W
Neptronix,
Nor probably did I. (g)
Hear, Hear!!! Me too, I want a productive vehicle that can meet my almost every need except for the expressway, not an adult toy, because unlike you and nearly everyone else here, I don't have a car or truck to fall back on. In the course of this thread, my knee jerk reaction to the original post has moved and I'm now looking at an e-bike or more likely trike with a top flat speed of 45mph as a reasonable goal for DIYers. At that speed you are good suburban and rural, traveling fast enough for the far heavier and faster energy pig vehicles to react to your presence safely on everything but the expressways. And here we have the knowledge and get up and go necessary to make such vehicles, if we just had the 5 or 10 times more energy dense batteries so that we could match the current ranges at those energy consuming higher speeds. Probably 2 or 3 times better batteries would do the trick with some streamlined airflow. But that's not here yet and your 30mph speed is doable.
There are no "ifs, ands, or buts," human beings and their societies will have to slow and small down to live within drastically reduced energy budgets in the years to come, and in that sense we are in the vanguard of that absolutely crucial development. So let's not view ourselves as "illegals" but as "prophets of the future," and make our efforts available to those who will be rapidly discovering that we have met a need for ourselves that they can emulate. We are sort of crackpots now, but we are the face of the future of personal transportation, and our numbers will grow until we have the power to influence and make the revised laws that fit our vehicles and that future far better. It's the oligarchs and plutocrats, the ones who feel that they are entitled to reserve and hoard all the wealth, energy and gasoline for themselves, and steal it from your neighbors, that are the true "illegals."
neptronix said:Uncle Ron, i suppose i didn't explain myself too well
Nor probably did I. (g)
Hear, Hear!!! Me too, I want a productive vehicle that can meet my almost every need except for the expressway, not an adult toy, because unlike you and nearly everyone else here, I don't have a car or truck to fall back on. In the course of this thread, my knee jerk reaction to the original post has moved and I'm now looking at an e-bike or more likely trike with a top flat speed of 45mph as a reasonable goal for DIYers. At that speed you are good suburban and rural, traveling fast enough for the far heavier and faster energy pig vehicles to react to your presence safely on everything but the expressways. And here we have the knowledge and get up and go necessary to make such vehicles, if we just had the 5 or 10 times more energy dense batteries so that we could match the current ranges at those energy consuming higher speeds. Probably 2 or 3 times better batteries would do the trick with some streamlined airflow. But that's not here yet and your 30mph speed is doable.
There are no "ifs, ands, or buts," human beings and their societies will have to slow and small down to live within drastically reduced energy budgets in the years to come, and in that sense we are in the vanguard of that absolutely crucial development. So let's not view ourselves as "illegals" but as "prophets of the future," and make our efforts available to those who will be rapidly discovering that we have met a need for ourselves that they can emulate. We are sort of crackpots now, but we are the face of the future of personal transportation, and our numbers will grow until we have the power to influence and make the revised laws that fit our vehicles and that future far better. It's the oligarchs and plutocrats, the ones who feel that they are entitled to reserve and hoard all the wealth, energy and gasoline for themselves, and steal it from your neighbors, that are the true "illegals."
