AM dual motor = bafang middrive + rear hub motor

[John Bozi]

DOUBLE TRIPPLE WHAMY, FROCK ME

lol
iwouldn't worry too mucha bout the controller getting hot. just check it after you go slow up a hill if you cover it. that will be the conditions for most current draw and least cooling. if you can hold your hand on it then its ok.
I dare say that is more than 500watts , maby 500watts continuos rated and 750/1k up hills/off the line. check the motor heat periodically after going up hills. if its quiet hot to touch(uncomfortable to hold hand on it) on the outside its probly at its limit thermaly inside.
sounds like you were having fun there

Yeah I let a bit rip on swearing but I was just blown away by how great the ride was.

On the rear hub I was confused that it said 1000w. I think you are right about the continuous rating.

I had a lot of chain drops on it, in the past as a mtb bike and now too. I've been thinking of putting the biggest widgit - I think 32 tooth chainguide solution and get rid of the crappy front deraileur. Granny gear is the wrong speed to be keeping her in anyway.

 

[John Bozi]

Dissapointed,went to pick up the bike after the repairs. Did a last minute test - cut out. Wasn't charged so sat around for something in it to test if she worked. After an hour did a quick block on it.

As usual controller is cold and motor a faint bit warm.

But a new thing not noticed before: the 1001 wires coming out of the controller or the one out of the throttle or the one heading down to the battery plug (they are all in a big group) were feeling warm.

As you might see in a few pics ago I had covered the group with electrical tap to both protect and tidy them up. I had no idea that they will warm up.

Where does the heat come from? Not sure but there are a lot of connections there and some of them look a little less insulated than they should. But once again I don't have my bike....



Forgot to ask

Does running the battery low make things heat up?

 

[pendragon8000]

... wires coming out of the controller or the one out of the throttle or the one heading down to the battery plug (they are all in a big group) were feeling warm.

the wire is probly to thin.
think about wire going to a light globe, doesnt get warm, but the thin wire in thr filiment gets warm, at has resistance against the electricity and some energy is converted to heat. think about energy, its limited so whatever you can get from the battery to the controller without it being turned into heat will either give your motor more power or give you more range from the battery or both. consider making the wire from the battery to controller thicker. your dad should know all about that by the sounds of it.
good luck mate

 

[lbz5mc12]

Sorry about all of your initial ebike troubles. It sounds like your luck is about as "good" as mine. I figured I'd show you a pick of my big grey monster. One other thing you might consider is to install an on off switch so if it continues to cut out, it'd be easier than getting off and unplugging/re-plugging. I'll post a picture of the switch and wire harness I've used before. All you would need to go with it would be some more wire depending on where you install it. The switch can be found at monsterscooterparts.com under switches. I believe the wire harness is at electricscooterparts.com.

 

[John Bozi]

The on off switch looks good, and yes thicker wires from battery-controller would be good. Dad actually solded (not sure spelling) the thick to thin now. He also taped all the connections to the controller. And my last ride last night I had no problems at all with bumps or heat.

I am not using the PAS or Brake connections. I was wondering is there anyway to connect a light to use the battery? I am guessing no.

Anyway, next jobs are to fix up all the bike bits unrelated to electrics.

1. The chain dropping all the time.
2. Put some new brake pads on.

 

[pendragon8000]

[youtube]AybjjYk0gOA[/youtube]
Edit
Didn't have time to type before.Had to ho back to work.
Anyway
That's how I do lights on my new bike. A plug pack connected to the battery and run your light on that. It needs to be s switch mode power supply. Most plug packs are these days, and it should say if it is. Jaycar has 12v 2amp packs for $25 can run an led down light or 2

 

[John Bozi]

shut up

no seriously you sound like you had a few puffs or tired as hell.

What I wanted to hear also was how many luminens you got going on that. I went into the local bike shop and a 1000 are about $220 crazy! So yeah I think yeah I need lights at night but no at that price.

 

[pendragon8000]

Umm.. b-e-e-r..
Yeah don't east your money. Many ppl get lights from eBay that have a built in dc-dc converter that can run from 12 to 75 volt don't worry about lumens to much, that's a measurement of brightness per angle/area. So a small narrow beam light has a higher lumen of a wide angle light of the same wattage. If you want you can just use a 12v light of any kind and the plug pack. Then hose clamp around light and another handle bar with them interliked to hold the torch on the bar.
Like this...

 

[John Bozi]

come up to vegas - ran out fo brew now on the grape.

 

[John Bozi]

Changed title of my thread to reflect my current feelings.

1. The new blade fuse was too hot to touch after my last ride so have solded fat wires to thin ones. Why aren't all the wires thick?
2. Did a test commute today and noticed after that the rear wheel was making noise. OMFGOD The bolt was so loose that I could pull the wheel off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3. Tightened the bolts only to make the wheel spin slower. What the hell? There is no chance to make this work.
4. Unrelated to Electrics the rear brake cable is rusted out and has a huge delay in releasing. I really don't want to spend much more on this set up when everything seems el shito.

I am thinking to start a new project on a brand new downhill bike. Will you guys hold my hand threw it? Sounds bit gay sorry. But wow I have learnt a lot and not sorry with this cheap experiment but you just know when you keep trying to put sticky tape over sh^t you still will have sh*t.

 

[pendragon8000]

lol
yeah ill keep a non gay eye on you if you electrify your DH bike. im sure others will to, as it allways interesting to see a nice dh bike get some decent power.

anyway, make all the wire thick going from the battery to controller, and controller to motor(if you can be stuffed).
as for tightening axle nuts and motor not spinning properly im not sure, only thing i can think of is bearings are frocked..

and the brake cable, give it a good serve of wd40 or rp7 all around the moving parts, might want to flip the bike first so you can really go to town untill the oil is driping out and not worry about having oil on the rim etc. do the lines and lever mechanism, then drop a bit of thicker oil in there (canola, sewing machine, transmission). i saved an old brake mech that is 10 years old and it was so shit but now its pretty good after a ton of oil cleaning it out.
good luck mate

 

[Ykick]

It can be discouraging due to many elements often overlooked. You need to have some Mechanical skills and abilities to deal with some of these things. Failing that, it may be wise to find a local handybody to hire?

Can't remember, is this a rear motor? If so, is the freewheel contacting the hub motor cover? Some combos need a spacer behind the freewheel to prevent this problem which would behave as you describe - spin slower (rubbing) as you tighten axle nuts. Or, you have washers that aren't the right size and/or in the correct positions?

Good luck....

 

[Kent]

Don't forget that a non-geared hub motor will give you extra drag which you will notice when peddling. How much depends on the motor. If you intend on doing a lot of pedaling, it may be a factor to consider...

 

[John Bozi]

It can be discouraging due to many elements often overlooked. You need to have some Mechanical skills and abilities to deal with some of these things. Failing that, it may be wise to find a local handybody to hire?

Can't remember, is this a rear motor? If so, is the freewheel contacting the hub motor cover? Some combos need a spacer behind the freewheel to prevent this problem which would behave as you describe - spin slower (rubbing) as you tighten axle nuts. Or, you have washers that aren't the right size and/or in the correct positions?

Good luck....

My dad worked as a mechanic for over 40 years, so he's pretty handy.

Yes its a rear motor. From day one theres been a certain speed that produces a zzzzzzz zzzzzzz zzzzzz tone which I thought is either the wheel isnt true or the cover or something is touching.

Don't really want to do this next move but we probably will eventually open the rear hub motor up. Dad said he can't understand why there isn't a nut or washer or spacer on the inside or something that stops the squeezing effect.

 

[John Bozi]

My favorite though, is the extremely slow 2812 motor, which I run on 72v. 25 mph top speed, but able to climb crazy steep hills for a mile or so before melting down. By limiting the wattage to 1500w I have no problems, but I have at times doubled that to 3000w. At 3000w, with a 72v 40 amps controller, you pretty much never pedal unless it's up a grade of 30%. But you do have to watch it how long you climb really steep grades. I have several motors, and often have one running while another waits for melted hall sensors to be replaced.

Batteries for dirt riding tend to be RC lipo type in the last few years. We want power, and we want it light. The possibility that the batteries might catch fire is not part of the decision, but once you do go for RC lipo, you want to be very careful how you use them, store them, and charge them in a place where a fire won't result in dead people. You don't just plug in and go to sleep with lipo.

I am starting to go back to the drawing board again and will start looking at these options for on a full suspension bike.

My focus is a set up that can take me up hills (not speed) and also be able to handle drops off a log, as most trails have log steps that can't be avoided. How does this 2812 handle the stress? I would plan to get proper fat downhill tyres for it too.

I've also been reading about the importance of the tyre size, but it is very hard to find an adult sized full suspension bike. Anyone know of any? I can only find this kids bike. I wonder how it would go with a long seat tube and if it could handle my 80kg+15kg electric bits.

Ground clearance would be a major issue so this is pointless.

The other option is to go for a single speed, only one I know of, no idea if it could take 20" wheels or if it did whether the peddles would hit the ground with the same problems.

I could put short crank arms if it were an issue or just make sure I only peddle when on flat ground.

Or could go BMX style.

 

[John Bozi]

Since I can't find that 2812 motor anywhere after hours of searching the net. I have only one other direction to go that was mentioned earlier. Please tell me if there are others.


Mac 500/1000W Pick'n'Mix Kit
- Controller Type 12 fet 40A (36-72V, IRFB4110)
- Motor Speed 200rpm loaded @36V 12T
- Front/Rear Motor Rear
- Wheel Type 20" Alex DM18 CNC
- Throttle Type Thumb Throttle
- Ebrakes No (not recommended)
MAC500PNMKIT $395.00 $395.00
50V 18.5Ah Samsung Triangle Pack
- Bag Including Bag
14S9PSDITRI $725.00 $725.

This is a quick choice as I have no idea about fet or what dm18 cnc is or what loaded at 36v means or if I can use another 72v battery. etc.

Any suggestions are great.

Also I hope this motor will have less drag than my cheap chinese one.

 

[mark5]

Since I can't find that 2812 motor anywhere after hours of searching the net. I have only one other direction to go that was mentioned earlier. Please tell me if there are others.

Mac 500/1000W Pick'n'Mix Kit

Why don't you ask Cellman for a 2812-equivalent direct drive motor. He has various motor wind options.

 

[John Bozi]

Since I can't find that 2812 motor anywhere after hours of searching the net. I have only one other direction to go that was mentioned earlier. Please tell me if there are others.

Mac 500/1000W Pick'n'Mix Kit

Why don't you ask Cellman for a 2812-equivalent direct drive motor. He has various motor wind options.

I have sent him an email waiting for his suggestion but would be nice for other opinions.

It would be nice to buy everything from one place everyone agrees is best. that way everything can be checked to be compatible before I get it. I have in all my newbie ness just discovered that there gears and a clutch in these more expensive motors which would be a great. I don't care much for gears but no drag oh that would be amazing for peddling and efficiency. But I am seeing around the place depending on versions there is different amounts of fails possible.

 

[pendragon8000]

i would be hesistant to put a geared hub on a bike thats going to be doing lots of small drops off logs etc. just my opinion, i have riden with someone that had a geared hub and they were doing really well on the trail we were on.

why dont you contact Hyena and get a hadron kit. that will really sort you out. (check my signature for a link to hyena)

and adult size full suspension.. ? well alot of serios dh guys use short / medium size bikes to get a more twitchy nimble ride. but i think you should be able to find something.. look at avanti/scott , felt. they seem big in australia.
and then if you want to order something you could go to CRC
here's a link to all there full suspenstion bikes in order of low to high price.. but add $200 for "bike shiping"
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/SearchResults.aspx?Search=suspension&CategoryIDs=2149,2150&SortBy=Price
not great prices but save a bit.
compare to avanti cheapest is $1,999. http://www.avantiplus.com.au/shop/bikes/full-suspension-mtb
heres a large felt for $1900 +$150 shipping http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/cntry-au/felt-edict-nine-item197763.html?gclid=COfz0b31_rYCFQlZpQodQ1gASA
giant xc full suspension for $1k !!! http://www.mtbr.com/cat/bikes/xc-suspensio/giant/yukon-fx/prd_418175_1526crx.aspx good luck finding one for sale

edit:

"Wheel Type 20 Alex DM18 CNC" is a small whell you need a 26" for standard mtb and cnc means the rim is machined for rim brakes.

 

[John Bozi]

Find a full suspension bike is not a problem. There a millions depending on how much you want to pay.

1. I am not touching second hand bikes as you have no idea how much damage the internal parts have suffered.

2. The search was for a smaller wheel size than 26". The only thing I can find is either kids bikes with fs or bmx bikes without suspension. I think I will have to stick with 26".

3. Long before I was into this electric thing, I was into finding the best ways to climb hills. The electric thing was one solution. The other solution was dropping weight and clutter. I dropped the front derauler on my carbon bike and found a much better lighter ride.

I really see no point to having bicycle gears when you have a motor. So that brings me to a choice of 3 bikes on the market.

Milkmoney = mountain bike - A few grand $$$ ouch. (this is the green bike in the picture above)
Soda slope = $2500
Pslope = $2000

I am leaning to the pslope - I have questions before I buy it.

1. How will it be to put a long seat post on it?
2. How will the motor fit in it / calipers etc.
3. Will I wear the battery? Or can I redesign a battery around it.

The Pslope is a bike that will handle a hell of a lot of drop with no matter how much weight you put on it. The other thing I love is that it doesn't look like a motorbike compared to downhill bikes.

[youtube]LDHgUeDDAtc[/youtube]

The P.Slope's single-pivot rear suspension rotates concentrically around the bottom bracket shell on a sturdy pair of needle bearings. An ISCG-05 chainguide mount is integrated to the drive side of the swingarm, so the chain guide will rotate as the suspension compresses, which should keep the chain in better alignment when a derailleur is being used. "When?" you ask. Specialized designed the P.Slope's adjustable rear dropouts to be interchangeable from single-speed to geared, so its owners have more options. The left-side rear dropout incorporates a post-type caliper mount to keep the brake aligned with the rotor as the chain is adjusted in single-speed mode. In addition, the P.Slope's BB30 press-in bottom bracket can be adapted to fit conventional threaded BB systems, or even the old-school press-fit BMX BB system. The rear hub is 135mm wide with a 10-millimeter bolt-on axle.

Two Allen bolts fix the rear dropouts in place, while chain tension is accomplished with a captured, threaded adjuster. The rear brake caliper (right) is mounted to the left dropout so it will remain in position with the P.Slope's 160mm rotor.

 

[full-throttle]

P-slope is a great bike but you won't be able to buy it this year. Originally there were 30 of them coming into the country and now there are only 8. All been preordered.

Look for Kona Bass if you want concentric pivot. I've got one, voicecoils sold his and kfong has the Cowan version. There are at least a dozen of other concentric pivot bikes out there ranging from 4" to 6" of travel. Both the Bass and P-slope are dirt jumper bikes and are limited when it comes to trail riding. That shouldn't stop you from enjoying it of course :lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW9b_exuxJU

Wheels smaller then 24" are a fail IMO. Even with 24" you pretty much have to use 3" tyres.

 

[pendragon8000]

Looks like you have your mind made up. I'd suggest a free ride bike like the Scott voltage, cheap version is tuff and $2k.
Should be a good build by the looks of the bikes your showing us.
Edit:sorry FT, didn't see that post, those concentric bikes sound rad. I'm jealous.

 

[John Bozi]

P-slope is a great bike but you won't be able to buy it this year. Originally there were 30 of them coming into the country and now there are only 8. All been preordered.

Look for Kona Bass if you want concentric pivot. I've got one, voicecoils sold his and kfong has the Cowan version. There are at least a dozen of other concentric pivot bikes out there ranging from 4" to 6" of travel. Both the Bass and P-slope are dirt jumper bikes and are limited when it comes to trail riding. That shouldn't stop you from enjoying it of course :lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW9b_exuxJU

Wheels smaller then 24" are a fail IMO. Even with 24" you pretty much have to use 3" tyres.

I agree, for me 26 perfect for my height, smaller is gona have problems with obstacles and larger problems with gearing and well smaller is stronger and lighter.

I found the Bass and it sells for more than the pslope as well. And I could only find it on amazon so its probably got a big shipping bill on top of it to Australia.

In which way will this be limited to trail riding? I imagine the suspension might be too stiff, but I kind of think this will suit the extra 15kg of the ebike side of things.

I actually like the milkmoney the best but is a 29er and the most expensive option here. It would however offer space in the triangle.

The pslopes are listed on bikeexchange but didn't know they were still out of stock.

I just think the pslope is sick for the price. I hate all those redundant rear and front deraullers - I wish they made other mountain bikes with this system.

 

[John Bozi]

I don't have an analyst and since my first riding experience my bike has not run out of juice. So I have no idea on how much I have used up.

the 15A however I have tested and takes me to work and back no problems with no need to peddle but for shadow peddling.

I saw a guy up there with an overpowered "500 watt rear hub" with 4 longer batteries in a back pack which kind of looked yellow wrapped in blue. I am guessing high capacity ones and they weighed I guess about 4kg. The controller was on the bike.

I wish I got his contact, anyone know who he is here on the forum, as I imagine he's on here to have that set up.

How dangerous is it to carry them on your back? I also have concerns that on thin trails there is bush that could snag the connection wire dangling to the back pack. Is it a bad idea to carry it?

How many of those batteries would I need to travel a round trip of 20kms. I don't want to carry more than getting there riding up and down a track or two and getting back. Or must I have the Amp hours that match the draw of energy at given moment?

 

[pendragon8000]

http://www.commonsenserc.com/page.php?page=c_ratings_explained.html

Here's the easy way to find your battery's discharge rate just multiply the number from the C rating by the pack's capacity. Keep in mind that 1000 milliamps equals one amp. Here's an example, using an 11.1V 2000mAh 10C

11.1 volt 2000mAh -10C
2000 milliamps = 2 amps
2 Amps x 10 = 20 amps continuous discharge

This means that you can safely draw up to 20 amps continuously from that 11.1V 2000mAh 10C without doing damage to your battery. Our packs have all the discharge information printed right on the label. You can check out one of our labels right here. We hope this helps clarify the most misunderstood aspect of electric flight.

note. most bnatteries are serously over stated in c rating, voltage "sag" occurs when high power is pulled from the cells. some nano tec from tunigy boast 65c.
im looking into doing a high powered friction drive BMX , probly with a back pack battery. I like the idea of backpack battery.