Amberwolf's Schwinn Trike Rebuild / Conversion to Heavy Cargo Hauler

[amberwolf]

From here:

The SB Cruiser : Amberwolf's 2WD Heavy Cargo Trike & Dog Carrier

Another of the upper-rack LED turn/tail light strips has failed. previous failure here https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/the-sb-cruiser-amberwolfs-2wd-heavy-cargo-trike-dog-carrier.67833/post-1746253 pic of that old one (present one is same kind, but replacements i have now are...

endless-sphere.com

I got an old Schwinn Tri-Wheeler Town and Country (probably the 1971 or 75 or 78 model, based on info from bikehistory.org) from someone I knew from the Trashnothing/Freecycle list. Other than time-rotted tires (possibly original) and tubes, missing reflectors, faded paint, and a bit of rust here and there, and some other plastics that aged badly, it's in remarkably good shape.
https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/attachments/20241103_193907-jpg.361493/ https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/attachments/20241103_193903-jpg.361492/ https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/attachments/20241103_193842-jpg.361491/ https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/attachments/20241103_193832-jpg.361490/ https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/attachments/20241103_193823-jpg.361489/

It also has a real differential in back, driven by a Shimano 3-speed hub 333 variation that Schwinn rebuilt the casing of to have an output gear on the casing isntead of spoke flanges, so the pedals drive both wheels. (the schwinn trike rear end I built SB Cruiser around only drives the left wheel, but uses normal wheels, appears intended to convert a schwinn 3-speed igh type bicycle into a trike).


The coaster brake in the IGH operates on the rear wheels because of this, so it does have rear brakes as well as typical 70s type basic caliper on the front.

Steel rims, 28 spoke 24" wheels for skinny 1"-ish tires. Nothing left of any markings on the tires, so don't know for sure what width they used to be. The hubs are the type that mount to the transaxle, without bearings in the hubs (those are in the trike module axle housing)


Ashtabula / one-piece cranks, singlespeed front directly to the IGH input. Chain appears original and has no problems turning, but could certainly use some oil.


The trike's rear wheel module has a center housing twice as wide as that on the SBC, with two finger holes to help with chain install/etc.


So I can easily put a middrive on it for primary drive, and a front hubmotor for redundancy and extra power if I need it for loads.

I considered leaving it nearly original, just replacing the saddle with a platform for one of the StadiumChair seats I use (probably the one I made long ago for the original version of the SB Cruiser; I think it's still in the shed), and replacing the rear carrier area with a deck platform for cargo, or more likely a cargo box built around the whole rear end. Then bolting some boxes to the sides under the seat (like I did with the original version of SBC). Possibly (probably) adding a bolt-on extension frame between the rear frame "trike" section and the front regular bike frame section, to give it the same wheelbase as the SBC (since I know that works) and a tiller for the handlebars (since I know that works for me), and to allow a longer / larger cargo area equivalent to the SBC.

But after working with some images in the computer, sketching stuff on them, I couldn't really find a way to make it usable for me without some fairly major changes, and building a whole rear subframe for the cargo area and "seatbox".


That's really the minimum job to make this usable for me, though it is much less work than the major construction job to basically build another SBC around the new trike's rear axle (which would be about the only part used from the frame in this case, kind of a waste). That gives me a spare trike for not nearly as much work that I can still use for many of the same things I use SBC for, and be able to use it for daily work commutes while I do other upgrades and fixes to SBC that have waited years to be done because there just wasn't time to do them and be certain of having it ready and available for work (presently SBC is my only transportation, and I dislike a lack of redundancy for critical things).

Also lets me experiment with the middrive option to a diff, which I wanted to try out on SBC MkII over here:

SB Cruiser Mk II design ponderings

This may not remain titled the same, but for now, SB Cruiser Mk II will do to get the idea across. :) So...I've been rebuilding the original SB Cruiser here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67833&start=350#p1227053 to fix a bunch of "little things" and make it more useful...

endless-sphere.com

Best guess is a few months of sparetime weekend work to do the minimal things, not including developing a reliable middrive out of either a hubmotor or one of my old brushed DC powerchair motors with gearbox (like I used on the original CrazyBike2). A front hubmotor (of which I have several laced in 26" wheels already) could be used until the MD was working.

I have lighting, controls, and other parts required that I had bought for the updated CrazyBike2 that was going to be the Cloudwalker Cargo Bike over here: Amberwolf's Cloudwalker Cargo Bike that I basically haven't touched since losing Kirin and then Yogi.

Battery can be one of the spares for SBC (presently mounted to the lawnmower; would then need to make new busbars for the other mower pack to make it 28s1p instead of 14s2p).

Controllers I have, probably use the generic ones I used to run SBC with before I got the Phaserunners for it. I think I have a spare CAv3 around here, and some magnet-ring cadence sensors (can't use a BB type like THUN or TDCM without converting the Ashtabula OPC this trike comes with into a threaded BB shell).

 

[amberwolf]

On to the concepts for converting this. Some pics of the "available" parts are at the end of the post. (I have more stuff available not pictured, but that's what I had already out for pondering last week; I'm too sick and worn out right now (bad head cold and icky guts) to get anything else out right now; just setting up what's there for the picture was an hour of exhausting work sitting there between moving things to the wall from the spot a dozen feet away it started from).

I have a couple of forks that I can make work, both are threadless and larger diameter but will fit thru the headtube on the frame. I'd need to replace the original bearing cups (for the old style 1" steerers) with something that adapts to the larger threadless type. If I have to I can weld a new headtube on, but I want to do as little modification as I can, partly to save work and time, partly to preserve the frame if possible.

The first fork is the old Luna fatbike fork that wasn't strong enough to handle SBC's braking forces, and it's crown-section of the tubing bent just above the fork legs. I only need it if I use the fatbike rear motor and wheel, which might help with ride quality with no suspension. It's the one used in the concept image below.

The second fork there's two options for, both are an old Suntour 2000 (?) steel suspension fork; it's not great suspension but it was better than nothing when i used them on CrazyBike2 and later SBC. One of them is just the bare old fork, and the other is the one that I installed two sets of linear-pull calipers to, one in front and one in back, to get sufficient braking for heavy cargo use (because the fork bends / legs rotate and don't correclty keep the pads against the rim for best braking with just one set).

I'd almost certainly use disc brakes with Avid BB7 calipers on all three wheels; definitely would on the front; the single one on SBC's front wheel works great; has more braking power than I have traction.


This is the initial sketch for conversion, based on SBC MkII thoughts; I need to redraw it "from scratch" to make it clearer and easier to see stuff:


There's a fair likelihood the rear wheels would be at least half a wheel farther back, possibly a whole wheel farther back, making the trike that much longer. But I may start with it this way. Part of it depends on having to get it around a couple of corners at work to get from the front door to the breakroom I have to park it in. (can't really make it wider because of that).

The major changes are:
--move handlebars to a tiller and point them back for comfortable angle when seated the way I ride.
--change fork / front wheel to 26" from 24", which angles the frame back several degrees. (the SBC has a very relaxed HT angle that hasn't caused any serious problems, so this one will probably be ok this way...if its' not, I can always change it).
--possibly add a "toptube" from the headtube to the point the trike-module bolts to the frame above the IGH.
--probably cut the seattube and seatstays off at the intersection with this downtube, to minimize stuff in my way of getting on and off.
--remove the rear wheels and fenders, and make new "hubs" that are just sprockets
--tilt the frame even further down so it would just clear the typical curbs / speed bumps I encounter, perhaps a handspan off the ground.
--Build a subframe that goes inside the wheels (the image shows it outside the wheels but it woudln't be), that also goes up to secure the seat to, and creates a "bay" for a lockable cargo area behind the seat, and a separate one under the seat.
--Use 26" fat tire (pair of 3" I have from a scrap bike) wheels on the rear, that will need custom hubs that allow sliding onto a fixed axle on the subframe, that have both a disc mount and (probably freewheeling) sprocket mount, to be driven from the chain from the transaxle "hubs" (thin gray lines).
A middrive can then be designed to drive either the IGH input, or the transaxle input (probably via the IGH output / shell since the transaxle input sprocket is cast as part of the TA housing, so I can't just bolt a second one next to it).

A hubmotor can be used in the front until the MD is designed and built, and for redundancy later.

If I keep the trike lighter by not building a heavy cargo box around the rear like SBC has, the small geared hub in front (a small bafang in the imaged fatbike wheel, and a different bafang in the ex-jumpbike wheel in the other images below) could "handle" the load, albeit with very low acceleration rates that might not be sufficient for the roads around here (SBC barely is, taking around 5 seconds plus to go from 0-20mph, most drivers are ok with that but some aren't).

I could move the rear GMAC into a 26" wheel (is in a 20" right now) and put that up front in the fatbike fork, and it would get me better acceleration than the little bafangs, but to really do what's needed I'll have to have the middrive (probably in addition to the front hub).


The subframe, once it's all welded up, can be made to bolt to the existing trike frame so it doesn't permanently alter the trike by having to cut and weld. I can probably make the toptube addon bolt on as well. This also gives me more options for experiments as I can build different subframes for different drive types....though it's not all that likely that I will, once it's working (there just isn't enough time and energy anymore).


I'll also build a canopy to cover me in the hot sun, since that has worked very well for SBC for a long time; I'm not sure I'd be able to ride in summer in the daytime without it.


Ideally I'd like to get a "new" battery (or set of them) to run it, so I am not using the "spares" for SBC (presently used occasionally on the lawnmower). At present the best option (because there's no expensive shipping cost) is these, but at $160 per 4s5p (20-cell) module, of which ideally I would need two, they're not really in my (nonexistent) budget.

Parting Out: 22kWh EV Battery (LG Chem P1 Cells)

Parting out the old battery from my 2012 Ford Focus Electric. Technical Details Module Configurations: 4s5p (full), 2s5p (half) Cells are marked LGX P1. Nominal cell capacity: 14.9Ah/53.5Wh (calculations below) Actual Capacity: ~10.8Ah/40.7Wh Approximate Dimensions (Length × Width × Height)...

endless-sphere.com

They'd be easy enough to re-buss, cutting and reconnecting just the welded-on busbars




Unaltered mockup and detail pics below:

 

[gromike]

I would like to find a Schwinn trike like yours, but, in fact, I did.
It has a differential like yours and is a 7 speed! They only want $600 firm.
So I'll keep a lookn'.

 

[Papa]

The subframe, once it's all welded up

Are you able to start welding again? Stick or wire?

 

[amberwolf]

I would like to find a Schwinn trike like yours, but, in fact, I did.
It has a differential like yours and is a 7 speed! They only want $600 firm.
So I'll keep a lookn'.

If it's a newer one and in great shape, it might be worth the money for someone that needs it as-is. But a quick google finds "mackinaw" and "meridian" trikes for $400-600 brand new, though most are unclear whether they drive both or just one rear wheel.


But if it's an ancient one like mine, that's probably overpriced unless it's in super good shape, and you wanted to keep it in original condition. I haven't looked up what one like mine is worth in various conditions.

 

[amberwolf]

Are you able to start welding again? Stick or wire?

I have two of the cheap harborfright wirefeed welders. One is the two-level 115vac version (smaller, lighter, and easier to move around, and powerable from any normal outlet), the other is the four-level 230vac version (big, heavy enough to have to be strapped to a dolly to move it around, powerable only by an extension I made to connect to my dryer outlet so it cant' be used away from the backdoor or else the window by the utility room) and it does a better job (slightly better feed mechanism does most of the improvement). Neither is great, but they do everything I've needed them to do so far, given my limited abilities.

The only thing really stopping me from welding (or doing any of the other things I need/want to do) is that I don't have enough time and energy to do much of anything at all when I get home from work, so I only really get to accomplish anything on the rare times I can take a week+ off from work (spend the first couple days recovering from work enough to get started on a project, then a few days to work on it, then recover from that and go back to work). And I have to do most of the welding / etc in the middle of the day when I can see well enough to be sure I'm doing it right, which is hard to do when it's hot outside, so this part of the year is the only time I really do much of it if I can possibly help it).

Almost all my small amounts of time I have outside of that is spent either on necessary housework or trying to learn enough of all the things needed to implement the Snuggles The Wolf robotics project. Or on destressing from that and the dayjob by messing around with my music (have had to do a disproportionate amount of that in the last several months...it's natural for me and fun, and if i could would do *just* that but I rarely have time to do much of it if I want to accomplish anything outside of it).

 

[amberwolf]

If I go with the subframe "sketched" in the concept image/post up above, it's pretty simple and would probably take 30-40 hours (spread over quite a few weeks most likely, a few minutes at a time here and there) to cut and shape the metal for, before it can be welded together.

There is a fair likelihood that during construction I'll think of things that need to be added, or find things that won't fit or work as conceived, such as discovering that some bolt I hadn't considered can't be accessed to isntall/remove something with it in place, or whatever, and then have to rethink/modify around that.


But...if I can come up with a bolt-on subframe, then others with a similar trike could adapt that readly enough to their own trikes to do the same kind of mod to make it more useful for cargo, better-riding, less tippy, etc.

 

[amberwolf]

The tires already on the 26x3" wheels are knobbies, and while one is ok, the other's knobs are pretty worn down, so while both are afctually still holding air (the bike wasnt' used for years by it's original owner, so this is pretty good), I'll need new tires for them for reliability.

I have 26x2" tires off those old Jumpbike motor wheels that I could use, but they'll end up pretty thin over the wide rim spread out like that, and wouldn't do the job of bump absorption that are the reason for using these larger wheels.

I was hoping I could find a CST road tire in 26x3, but they only have a couple of knobbies in that size. Whatever I get needs to be a road tire (non-knobby), and a soft enough compound for good grip (like the CST City and Sensamo that I've used). Too many tires are made "to last" and so have hard compounds that have insufficient grip, so they skid during braking too easily, and slide around the road surface in cornering, either of which could cause a crash in the traffic I have to ride in.

My first few seconds googling finds this "deal"

https://www.amazon.com/Foldable-26x3-0-Schrader-Compatible-Electric/dp/B0CH2XZ61C

which is $86 for two tires, two tubes, and two rim strips. My guess is they're not great, but they might be worth that price; many cheap tires are made from softer compounds, though I don't find any info on that for this brand/model.

Poking around the other results finds that most of the non-knobby options for known-brands (other than Kenda that I won't use because they *always* disintegrate their sidewalls and fall apart) would cost more than that for just two tires (not uncommon to cost that much for just *one* tire), and good thick tubes for this size run nearly $30 each in brands I know enough to trust (CST, Sunlite) not to fail in the usual ways (stems, seams, etc).

These cheap ones (Duro) are more expensive than some good ones at $140 / pair, probably because they're whitewall

Robot or human?

If I use the 4" fat tire on the front, tires and tubes are even MORE expensive, and will probably cost as much for the one tire as the pair would for the rear, and a quick glance at google's results doesn't find a non-knobby version, though I'm sure there are some.

So I'd probably use the regular narrower-rim wheels that I already have various tires and tubes for, and a known-good well-tested (on SBC) brand/model to buy replacements if necessary (CST Sensamo Control 26x2).

 

[amberwolf]

To build the hubs, axles, bearings for the rear wheels, regardless of tire/rim width I end up with, I'll use the bearings out of some old "Uboat" wheels I saved the cores of when the tires disintegrated and the wheels were replaced. They're basically like these 8" wheels
8" x 2" Red Polyurethane on Polyolefin Wheel - Precision Sealed Ball Bearing | Caster City

but the bearings in the ones I have are not separate per-side, they are full-width "needle bearings" within containment tubes with grease nipples. Just have to cut the plastics off the bearing to be able to put them into the wheel hubs. IIRC they're 1" I.D. I'm sure they can handle the weight loads, since the carts tehy're from regularly carry more than half a ton. RPM should be ok since they're from tiny 8" wheels pushed at walking speed (say 3-5mph), and would be on larger 26-27" wheels at higher road speed (20mph) Sort of like these https://www.amazon.com/Koyo-M-16121-Bearing-4300rpm-Rotational/dp/B007EDRR98


The hubs themselves I have various tubing sizes I can go thru to see what fits best.

The stub axles I don't know what I have that will work; they have to be stiff enough to hold all the weight even with the potential for hitting bad potholes or road debris. Don't know if I should use tubing or solid round stock.

If I use tubing, would it be better to nest multiple diameters one inside another, if I have some that will do this and closely fit?


I want to use single-ended stub axles for ease of working on the wheels if I have to do any roadside tire/tube repair or wheel replacement. As discussed in the SBC MkII thread, I would like to carry a whole spare wheel that can just be swapped out, at least for the rear.

Ideally I would use identical wheels front and rear with the same axle arrangment, so the same spare will work on any wheel, but since I would have to build a single-sided fork from scratch to do this, I don't have enough info or experience to be sure that would work. Plus I need to at least start out using a front hubmotor until a middrive can be designed, and probalby afterward as well, so it's likely that I can't go with the full application of this idea the SBC MkII would have.

 

[amberwolf]

Started to type this up last night (this morning) when I woke up as usual in the middle of sleep, but dozed off in hte process, so I don't recall all my thoughts and my replies are probably incomplete.

As a fellow delta trike builder& rider, you know well my views. I would never attempt, or recommend another 'granny' conversion. Especially those intended to mix-it-up with high traffic on public asphalt. There's just too damn much that needs altering to consider them safe at anything above 10 mph.

I'd typically agree; the difference between a "straight conversion" and what I'm doing is that I'm using the things from the successful SB Cruiser build that can be implemented on this one to (hopefuly) give it the same kind of handling. I won't know until the majority of it is done and can be road tested whether that will really work or not, of course.

if it doesn't i can always alter it until it does work.

1.) The Trike's gross (fully loaded) vertical CoG location must be no higher than half the rear axle track width. Assume 28" track suggest a maximum CoG height of 14". Achieving a safe vertical CoG on a 'granny' delta, typically requires extensive chassis modifications.

SBC probably violates this rule, but I don't know exactly (edit: i think i fell asleep here)

---hopefully-resumed thought: I think I was going to say that I'm not sure of the full weight distribution / cog of SBC, but that it rides well and can be safely ridden at 20mph with no twitchiness in steering, and can make wide left turns at 15mph+ (poor memory at the moment, but i think almost 18mph is the fastest i've done that at, usually it's slower, depends on the actual turn being made at the specific intersection and the traffic behind me at that moment).

Sharper turns to the right have to be slower, 10-12mph probably max on those, depends on the intersection. I usually slow more for all of these than that, but i often have car/truck traffic behind me that doesn't slow down, and to avoid unhelpful and negative interactions I do what I can to just not be in their way.

Most of the weight of SBC is below my butt (whcih is by at least several inches, and so is probably within a foot of the ground, given the battery and tools and stuff in the under-seat box, and the hubmotors on the rear wheels and the moped tires, etc. The wood and metal in the box behind me above butt level is probably about the same mass as in one of the hubmotor wheels/tires, at a guess, maybe more. My own weight is almsot 200lbs these days, so that likely coutners most of the weight under me and raises the cog to somewhere well above the "safe" point, but i don't konw where it actually ends up, or how i might test things to find out where it is.

2.) The rear axle diameter on the current crop of deltas with cantilevered wheels is usually 5/8" or 15mm (yes, there are rare exceptions). And typically manufactured from A36 mild steel. Replacement axles made of 4130N tubing (from Acraftspruce) in .058" or .083"wall would be considered an absolute minimum suggested upgrade - however, this does not take in consideration the addition of cargo.

I won't be using the existing axle on it to carry weight; as noted in another post up there somewhere i'll be making stub axles mounted to the extension subframe for the rear wheels. the trike's present axle will only drive sprockets that then drive chains that drive the rear wheels.

But the info is still helpful in deciding what to make the stub axles themselves from. I don't have the option of ordering tubing (no budget; just tires and tubes will be more than I can really spend), but I can choose from whatever I've already got, including old cromoly bike frames. I don't know if it would structurally help to stack/overlap/nest (don't know the right word) multiple tube sizes that closely fit each other for the stub axles, all welded to/thru the mounting plate on the extension frame, and then welded to whatever securing method (bolt or threaded rod inside the tubing) I end up with for the nut to keep the wheel on the axle.

The stub axle outer diameter will have to be limited to the bearing size I have available on those heavy-duty needle bearings, which I think is 1" ID; still have to measure that.

3.) Rear brakes (at a minimum), easily capable of panic stops at the intended speeds above 10 mph, simple does NOT exist on most vintage pedal-powered granny trikes converted to electric.

The rear brakes will (I think this is in a post above; not sure) be disc brakes with avid bb7 calipers; I have some I bought to install on SBC but have never had time off long enough to take apart and rebuild SBC's frame to accomodate them. Might as well use them on this, and if I ever get time to do SBC's upgrades I can get new ones for that.

I have to custom make the hubs to carry the rotor and a separate (probably freewheeling) sprocket, and the calipers would mount to the stub axle plate, with a quick-release to swivel out of the way of the rotor to make it easy to change the wheel roadside with as few tools as possible.

 

[amberwolf]

weird, the post i replied to isn't there anymore? :?



anyway, i had to get up to see what the schmoo wanted me to go see (just playtime, apparently, nothing really there), and took some pics (end of post) and measurements of those bearings. tursn out they're a lot smalelr than i was remembering; 1/2" in the center of their existing race according to both a handy drillbit and harbrofright digital caliper.

the race does not appear to be anything really hard metal-wise as there are gashes in one of them that had fallen out of the bearing and was under all the stuff the wheels were with. So i could progbably use the bearings directly on the surface of whatever tubing i use to build the stubs from without their cores, which means the max stub diameter is 0.72" (18.5mm) which google says is 18/25", which is probably really 3/4" at a guess.

on t he carts they come from the wheels are supported on boht ends of the axle, but they also can hold basically a couple thousand pounds per pair and still move normally, with most of the weight on these larger wheels and the rest on one end's much smaller casters (though those little wheels don't handle that much weight that well and have to be replaced now and then on the carts that get used msot often for that kind of weight).

bearings are around 80% of th width of the cage, which itself is around 80% the weidth of the wheel, which is about 2". so call it 1-1/4" for the actual bearng surface width if i did math right (not guaranteed).

OD of the bearing cage is about 1.15", 29.3mm, can't see the rest of the unit inside the plastic wheel so will have to recheck that when i eventrually cut a wheel open to take the bearing out, as i couldn't press one out by hand.




also "measured" the seat height of SBC goes to halfway up my thigh, but forgot to measure my leg before i laid back down to post this, so....a guess is that is around 28".

wheelbase on sbc is a lot longer than the schwin trike, which is what the extension frame is intended to help emulate, not sure how that affects the cog math, if it does at all.

keep in mind the scwhinns frame will be tilted down at the back to put as much of it as possible, and the extension frame's deck height way down low, so that as much weight of trike and any cargo will be as low as possible and still clear antyhgn i have to ride over on streets/parkinglots.

the front of the frame has to tilt up some to clear the top of the 26" wheel's fork, which will be that much taller than the 24" it was built for. but there's not much weight up front.

 

[amberwolf]

Started this thread

Help design a DIY middrive for this heavily customized trike

https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/amberwolfs-schwinn-trike-rebuild-conversion-to-heavy-cargo-hauler.125947/ There are mulitple possibilities; I don't presently have a set design in mind, just a goal of being able to drive both rear wheels from the system, without preventing the pedals...

endless-sphere.com

to work out the middrive for the rear, for anyone interested in helping.

 

[amberwolf]

No physical progress yet, other than that the 3x26" tires/tubes arrived, and appear to be better than I expected. The tubes are thick types, rather than the paper-thin ones I thought would be included, and the tires are fairly thick and of a soft sticky compound. The rim strips are just plastic, so I will probalby skip those and use my usual gorillatape instead. Of course, that's after I design and build the hubs, and then unlace the 3x26" wheels to take the old hubs out, and replace them with mine and lace them up.



Design of the hubs will partly depend on the drive system, and partly on the axle/bearing system (which I also have to design, based on the parts I already have around here).


Haven't decided on the middrive method yet. Have been doodling with the various ideas, want to do it up in a 3D program but unless I build the actual trike with correct measurements as a model, it wouldn't be useful for fitment work-out. So just doing it in paint for now. When there's time/energy I can hold up parts to the frame itself and see where they might fit for some better guesswork.

Paint sketches bottom and side view of a hubmotor driving the casing of the IGH (so it doesn't go thru the gearing, but does go thru the diff). It would have clamping dropouts securing it's axle to a plate that would bolt or clamp to the chainstays of the trike frame (as shown in the bottom view) or to the bottom of the seat mount (as shown in the side view); depending on how the motor fits within the framework. Output sprocket would mount to the disc mount of the hub, input to the ridge still present on the IGH housing.

 

[amberwolf]

(crossposted from the SBC thread to keep info on this build here)

I'll be using 26" x 3" rear wheels, because I have to build new wheels for it no matter how I end up using it, and I already have some rims for those on wheels from a junk bike, but they have worn knobby tires, with pretty thin casing between the knobs, so simply cutting off the knobs isn't a usable option. The size chosen is because 20" wheels on SBC are so small that they "feel" every bump, hole, etc; I've broken axles and a rim (and another rim on the old CrazyBike2 with it's 20" rear wheel). Tires/tubes are better for 20" because I can use moped 16" tires and tubes, which are more durable and cheaper than equivalent bicycle tires, and thicker, and often have better grip...but I really want a more comfortable ride without as much worry about breaking wheels and such, and bigger wheels roll over bigger stuff with less problem, so....

(suspension is complicated for a highly-variable-weight/loading cargo trike, and is another failure point, so I have skipped that on all the trike designs so far)

Why 3" vs more common and cheaper 2"? Because there's a lot more air in there, and that gets me that much more bump absorption, and more distance between the rim and the edges of holes / debris that breaks them. I can't always avoid those when traffic gets bad (and I can't just stop until traffic passes or I could be hit by cars that would otherwise just pass me if I'm moving (because some people are stupid)--even a graze at that speed difference could be fatal while it might just hurt a lot if I'm going my max of 20MPH), so being able to take the hit is important.

26x3 tires are in general fairly expensive, so for this experiment I started looking at the cheap stuff since I don't have the budget for anything decent (well, I don't have the budget for the cheap stuff either but I can skip enough household stuff temporarily for the option I found below). After a fair bit of poking around, and waiting to see what holidaze sales came up, I found these for about $60 (instead of the $90 they usually go for), by "YUNSCM" that I've never heard of:

https://www.amazon.com/Foldable-26x3-0-Schrader-Compatible-Electric/dp/B0CH2XZ61C

Can't really tell much from the site page and pics, but if they weren't right I could send them back at no cost to me, and no shipping cost to get them, so a better option than anything else. No really awful reviews, and some positive ones there and elsewhere.

 

[e-beach]

since I am going to have to go to a trike soon myself, I am subscribing to this thread.

Thanks!

 

[amberwolf]

since I am going to have to go to a trike soon myself, I am subscribing to this thread.

Thanks!

What do you need the trike to do for you? Same things your bike does, but without the potential balance issues? Or something specific a trike can do easier, like cargo?

 

[e-beach]

What do you need the trike to do for you? Same things your bike does, but without the potential balance issues? Or something specific a trike can do easier, like cargo?

Not so much balance as much as cargo. My last bad crash was when I was coming home with groceries and a potato in the shopping bag that was hung on my handle bars got cough in my front spokes, stopping the wheel and I ended up flying over the handle bars with the bike landing on top of me. Sad to say but I am no longer young and crashes are becoming harder to recover from. As it is, I am battling a rotator cuff tear that I sustained last July when I slipped on a down hill slop at a local golf course because the grounds keeper was, for some reason I can't figure out, watering the path that lead to the 9th tee box and she ended up turning it into a muddy slip-n-slide that I didn't see until I was on my back. I am going to get an MRI on it this Friday and see a surgeon in a couple of week to get a doctors opinion. Long-story-short, crashing is no longer an option for me.

So I am thinking cargo like groceries or music gear or what I can get on to it from the hardware store. (bags of soil amendments or bags of steer manure for the lawn etc.) I am also thinking three wheels is probably a better option for me now-a-days.

 

[99t4]

Don't be so hard on yourself! This configuration:

groceries and a potato in the shopping bag that was hung on my handle bars

almost never ends well, even under the best conditions.

BTDT! And got the ripped-up t-shirt to prove it.

 

[e-beach]

Don't be so hard on yourself! This configuration:

almost never ends well, even under the best conditions.

BTDT! And got the ripped-up t-shirt to prove it.

And a good memory of the guy who stopped and pulled the bike off my back.
The potato was deemed no longer breakable and the lesson remains. "No potatoes into the spokes of moving bicycles!"

 

[amberwolf]

Not so much balance as much as cargo. My last bad crash was when I was coming home with groceries and a potato in the shopping bag that was hung on my handle bars got cough in my front spokes, stopping the wheel and I ended up flying over the handle bars with the bike landing on top of me. Sad to say but I am no longer young and crashes are becoming harder to recover from. As it is, I am battling a rotator cuff tear that I sustained last July when I slipped on a down hill slop at a local golf course because the grounds keeper was, for some reason I can't figure out, watering the path that lead to the 9th tee box and she ended up turning it into a muddy slip-n-slide that I didn't see until I was on my back. I am going to get an MRI on it this Friday and see a surgeon in a couple of week to get a doctors opinion. Long-story-short, crashing is no longer an option for me.

Ouch.

Easier (and safer) cargo carrying was part of why I built the SB Cruiser trike--more the wiggly kind of cargo, first Tiny then the others, but also heavy cargo like whole grocery carts full of stuff, liquids / sloshy stuff in whatever containers, and long stuff (boards, tubes, etc) I could carry on the rack on top (once I added that later on).

So I am thinking cargo like groceries or music gear or what I can get on to it from the hardware store. (bags of soil amendments or bags of steer manure for the lawn etc.) I am also thinking three wheels is probably a better option for me now-a-days.

Depending on the size of the things you need to carry, you might be better off with a more-scratchbuilt trike, closer to the SB Cruiser, or even better the MK2 version design (that hasn't been bulit, might not ever be just because it's too wide and long to take inside at work and park in the breakroom; SB Cruiser is about the biggest I can get thru the aisles to get back there--even a few inches wider just wouldn't make the corners in two places).

If you want to start a thread here in Ebike Build Threads for your ideal trike we can work out what it will take to do that, and see how much you can build off existing parts and how much you might have to make from scratch.

This trike (the schwinn conversion) is going to take a fair bit of custombuilt framework to make the backend, not even counting the stuff I have to do to build the wheels (because I want single-sided axles so I can swap wheels roadside and/or do other stuff easily with them, which cannot be done with the SBC design as it is now (but could with the Mk2)).

"No potatoes into the spokes of moving bicycles!"

I prefer to keep everything except light and air out of them.

FWIW, those aero discs you can make out of, well, anything thin and flat that you can cut a "circular" section of, to cover your wheels, will also keep potatoes out of them.

Unless you ride in high-sidewind conditions, or get passed closely by big buses and other things with large drafting / sucking wakes, they'll generally do more good than harm.

 

[amberwolf]

Don't be so hard on yourself! This configuration:

almost never ends well, even under the best conditions.

One of my earliest "dedicated" cargo setups was just putting baskets on both front and rear, the type that start above the axle up to just above the tire. It was WAAAAAAYYY better than just a backpack or rear rack or worse hanging it on the bars. (My DayGlo Avenger thread shows the continuation of one of those types of bicycle into the first electromotorificated one).

That evolved into the CrazyBike2, and then into the SB Cruiser trike.

 

[amberwolf]

Got the IGH and the diff removed so I could lubricate them and the axle bearings.

The axle is two halves, each cotter-pinned to the diff's output shafts, which are hollow tubes.

A drill chuck key turned out to have a perfectly sized rod for tapping out the cotter pins, making that part far easier than usual.

But as usual, actually removing the IGH and diff was quite a PITA, requiring unbolting the rear section from the "bike frame" to get first the IGH out (it's axle has to be rotated 90 degrees in the L dropouts of the rear frame in the process, and the angled dropouts of the bike frame don't allow that while still attached over the sides of the rear frame). Interestingly, the bracket that secures this section of the rear frame to the biek frame is not welded to the rear frame, it's just a folded tab that pulls on the front edge to keep it secure. Guess it works fine, as it was tight enough I thought it was welded until I loosened the clamping plate bolt and tried to move the frames apart.





Once the IGH was removed, getting the diff out was easy, simply requiring pulling the live axles out of it, twisting it at an angle to allow the chain/sprocket past the stiffening bar in front of it.

Before doing either of those, the pedal chain had to be forced up and over the pedal chainring, as it couldn't be detensioned enough to get it off normally, even with the frames unbolted from each other. Tehre's no master link, and the chain is "riveted" together in a way I've seen a couple of times on old singlespeed-chain bikes, which can't be undone with the chaintool I have. (it would require grinding away the spread-out "head" of the rivets, or even cutting a chain link out....there's a fair likelihood I can keep this chain on here and just lube it, so I would rather not cut it or otherwise render it unusable...the master links I have are not wide enough for this chain, IIRC. (one less cost to get it working, since my pedal input is not going to be driving the full load (I couldn't do that for very long at all)).

The IGH-diff chain was easy to get past once the IGH was not held by the bike dropouts (just by the rear frame dropouts).

The diff is not serviceable; it's casing is spotwelded together at three points to the sprocket in the center. I could probably drill and bolt the halves to that instead if I need to open it up, but for now I just dribbled some light oil into the bearing gap so it can have an "oil bath" for the gears, and to get some oil into the bearings on each end.

The Shimano 3SC IGH doesn't have an oil port like some of the SA hubs from that era, so I'll look up it's service manual or others' experiences to see if I can just get oil into it from one end or the other (like via the shifter-rod port), rather than diassembling it.



The live axle bearings spin pretty freely on the outboard ends, but the diff ends are not. I put a little oil in each and manually forced their inner race to rotate a bit, but it'll have to sit for a bit and see if it gets easier as the oil soaks in (I suspect there's grease and dirt in there caking them).





The schmoo was busy not caring, as hard as she could.

 

[amberwolf]

So, not long after the above, I started getting sick, some head/chest cold, not too bad but no energy to do much of anything outside of what I can do from bed. Still have a few days of time off left, so I might feel well enough before the end of it to get more done on the trike (had hoped to at least build one of the hubs & axle mounts to begin experimenting, and lacing up a wheel to test fit those tires/tubes to; probably not enough time for that at this point). If not, i still have some yard cleanup work that has to get done before I go back to work....

Next time off probably won't be till the end of April. :/

 

[amberwolf]

This one's kinda OT for this thread, but....

Felt a bit better today with less green globs being hacked out, but not able to deal with tools and bike parts yet, so sat in the yard next to the stick piles and fed one pile into the chipper, which is one of these Sun-Joe-14-AMP-Electric-Wood-Chipper/Shredder---CJ601E- though mine was less than $20 from goodwill, and appeared to have been unused (rare at gw but i've found more than a few things like that there, some brand new in box unopened!). Thought i'd posted aobut it when I got it but don't see a post for it, was just going to link to that and post this there...but...so here it is.

It works, but if it's thicker than my pinky, it'll take forever to chew thru, and make a lot of woodsmoke in the process. But you can feed as much stuff up to 1cm wide into it as you want all at once, whatever will fit in the hopper, and it'll chew right thru that easy enough, be it lantana, mulberry, or whatever this other tree is (acacia, eucalyptus, whatever). If it's smaller than about 3mm it just passes thru mostly intact. It does "shred" stuff, but it doesn't chip or whatever. If you put something in there that's the inch-and-a-half it says it'll do, then you can sit there and force it down while it makes lots of woodsmoke, and eventually it'll chew thru it...but it takes about 20 minutes per foot (I only did about four inches of one before I gave up--it might've gotten hot enough to ignite something by the time I actually got a foot down), and if there's no breeze you'll die of asphyxiation first.

Didn't jam, though, so..there's that. So I ended up just tossing out anything bigger than my pinky, and that's probably enough to make at least three cubic feet of chips, which is a shame because I had hoped to use this stuff to make chips to cover all the bases of the trees to help minimize sun-heating of the ground around them to help with drying out in the summers that keep getting hotter and drier.

If I had any energy I would probably have taken it apart to see how I could improve it. Thankfully I didn't, so I didn't, and can just keep using it whenever I have time/energy to sit there and do this. Probalby do some more tomorrow, as I have a pretty big pile to finish off. Most of that is too big, so will have to be tossed out instead of chipped, but at least I can use some of it, and it's not all going to landfill. If I "paid myself" even minimum wage to do this, then at two hours to get a cubic foot-and-a-half of shavings (and virtually unprocessed twigs), it'd be WAY cheaper to buy bags of chipped stuff at Lowes or whatever, but it's time I'd just be laying in bed being miserable so at least I'm accomplishing *something* and recycling some yard waste at the same time.


What it really needs is a feed motor with rollers liek those in a paper shredder that grab stuff and pull it down onto the blade plate, but it's all manual so you have to do that yourself. If the bits are skinny enough and loose enough in there, they'll bounce around from vibration and eventually get themselves chewed up--but that can take several minutes for a handful of <1cm sticks that are less than a foot long. You also have to cut off any branching bits of the sticks so the'yre reltavilyt straight or else they'll get stuck in the narrow hopper, making it less than worth doing for anything really branchy. The long mulberry stuff is easiest, and the acacia/eucalyptus is worst, for being branchy like that.

So overall it's pretty tiring to use, and unless you've just got time to waste, or are desperate to recycle yard waste for whatever reason, it's not worth the time doing this stuff, no matter how "green" I would like to be.

Hopefully my next post wil be about the actual trike.

 

[amberwolf]

@Chalo @Papa @PaPaSteve (or anyone else with related mechanical expertise):

In this I'm-sick-and-too-tired-to-be-sensible thought experiment,I explore the probably dumb idea of using IGHs as single-sided hubs in wheels on this trike.

If I were to create a "sleeve", threaded on the inside to match the axle (kinda like pedal extenders, but not; just something to "thicken" the axle all the way up to the shoulder / bearing face), secured to the axle itself with set screws or other (?) method to lock it rotationally, is it likely to allow using an IGH like these

Sturmey-Archer | RX-RD3

For more than 100 years, Sturmey-Archer has been a pioneer in the design of internal gear hubs, hub brakes and dynamo lighting. Sturmey-Archer makes cycling easier and safer.

www.sturmey-archer.com

from those old jump bikes

Sturmey-Archer Hub from BCH

Although the caption says electric bike hub, I think they are just a multi-speed hub with perhaps a drum brake inside. Is this a desireable item for a FWD bike or mid drive build? https://www.batteryclearinghouse.com/products/26-front-sturmey-archer-electric-bike-wheel-hub-with-tire

endless-sphere.com

as single-sided axles safely, especially given that I am going to be loading them higher than typical with the trike and cargo weight?

They'd be used as the hubs of the two rear wheels, one on each side, with the sleeve fixed into a clamp (?) or other not-yet-thought-out method (that would be secure while riding but easy to undo for wheel changes/etc at roadside).

Chains from the trike's diff-axle ends would drive the inputs of the IGHs...the right wheel would require a chain outboard of the wheel though, so it would be harder to get it on and off, and it would also be pulling on an unsupported end of it and flexing the singel axle end, which is bad, since it would now be being flexed in at least two perpendicular directions variably for the whole riding times.

In theory (assuming I come up with a shifting method for both at the same time to keep them in the same gear) that would let me have gearshifting available beyond just the pedal-only igh that's already in the trike frame (the old shimano), so the motors could also have gearshifting and take a little less power for startups while having higher gears for the rest of the 20mph speed range, and the pedals could be kept in a different gear so i could still do whatever pedalling i can manage at various speeds.

It would also allow me to use the drum brakes in them for the rear mechanical brakes.


My brainfogged guess is that even if i can manage some mechanism to securely transfer torque to the frame from the igh axle for botyh braking and internal gearing, it would shear the axle off in short order from flexure stresses. :/



In that case, back to the original custom-version of the same kind of hubs already used for the split-live-axle the trike already has, except with bearings to ride on stub axles mounted on the frame itself, and disc brake rotor mounts on the inboard side for mechanical braking and parking brakes.