Another 36V Li-ion Battery : BOSCH !!

[Doctorbass]

This morning, i was taking my breakfast and i seen this anouncement in the weekly flyer specials and i found this new li-ion tool battery pack:

http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tools-detail?H=189200&G=70086&I=70057&T=1

it appeard that they include some KONION cells made by Sony.

I found that info about Emoli, M1 and KONION graph


in this site from german:

http://www.mannertz.de/eflug/bechervg.htm#Entladung30A

translate this link using http://babelfish.altavista.com/ from german to english...

"in the BOSCH-batteries you get 10s2p

the KOnion can be charged up to 4,2Volt
they have then a typical capacity of 1100-1200mah each"

Doc

 

[xyster]

These Bosch packs have been around for about a year:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=583742
Appears unclear which cell they use. It might be the same 1500mah Konion LiMn cells used by Makita. Anybody know for sure?

 

[Ypedal]

I suspect it may be similar to the Sony/BionX Li-Mn chemistry in 18650's.. but this is just a guess..

 

[Kraeuterbutter]

hey..
the picture (sorry for bad quality, was taken at that time with old handy)
shows my pack..

these are 10s2p Sony US18650VT

you can find a discharge-graph of this cell here:
http://www.elektromodellflug.de/akku-test/LiIonM-1100.htm
the first diagramm

the cell has 1000-1100mah, depending on discharage current
the cell is "eigensicher", so does not burn/explode like old-style LiIons
its based on Mangan

trade off: the discharge-curve at the second halfe is going down and down slowly..
so not comparable for example with the discharge-curve of a A123 that says at same level and falls off at the end of discharge

the Konion1100 how we call them (Sony US18650VT) is now used for maybe 3-4 years in our hobby (rc-planes)

its a very reliable cell
its maybe the only cell which realy does not need any balancer !
in the bosch-pack there is also no balancer included, because not needed

for use at high currents:
in rc-helicopters the cell has proven over last 3 years, that it will hold 200-300cycles at that high currents
(Nimh last in same helis ~50-100cylces, lipos ~70-150cycles)

meanwhile there is a stronger cell, with all good behaviour (no balancer needed) of the old one,
we name it: Konion1300
-->
http://www.elektromodellflug.de/akku-test/Konion-1300.htm

for low-power applications like e-bike this cell can be great
oh: you can charge them with 2C, no problem

 

[Kraeuterbutter]

oh: low-power-appliccation is relative:

the cells - the old one and the new one - have no problem with 10C continously and peaks of 15-20C

values you should not reach in an e-bike anyway

 

[Doctorbass]

Hey hey! All the 45 Makita 18V li-ion pack i got have the 1600mAh version that is the US18650V not the VT and is also manganese chemistry. they also are safe and can hold 10-12C discjharge

I did some discharge graphs yesterday ant they have 5.5Wh each and 1520mAh.

It appear that they can be charged to 2C (3A).... I tried and the temp never exceeded 43 degree Celsius. At 2/3 C (1A) they stay below 32.

I will do some stronger test like nail test... over discharge.. overcharge in a secure environment too.

 

[fechter]

oh: low-power-appliccation is relative:

the cells - the old one and the new one - have no problem with 10C continously and peaks of 15-20C

values you should not reach in an e-bike anyway

Depends on your bike

 

[pwbset]

$75 for these seem like a pretty good deal for these... what am I missing? $300+shipping for 36v8ah konion ?

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-BAT836-Standard-36-Volt-Litheon/dp/B000JTBPF6

 

[gogo]

Anyone know what the warranty is on these?

 

[EMF]

$75 for these seem like a pretty good deal for these... what am I missing? $300+shipping for 36v8ah konion ?

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-BAT836-Standard-36-Volt-Litheon/dp/B000JTBPF6

Even cheaper on ebay at the moment- $160 for 2 delivered with a warranty. I can't tell if it's 2 or 3 years.

Edit: Looks like a 2 year warranty

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Bosch-36V-Litheon-Batteries-FatPack-Battery-BAT836_W0QQitemZ130241825689QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item130241825689&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318

 

[pwbset]

Even cheaper on ebay

Good catch! Man it's tempting to get some of these for an alternate system... can't afford it though right now. Damn. Hopefully someone will guinea pig and check them out. $320 to your door for almost 300 watt hrs lithium is just down right affordable. That's only $70 more than ebike.ca's 36v8ah nicad pack... with shipping it would be almost on par, but you're getting lithium instead. Yummy. 72v4ah 2s2p sounds about right for a basic 10+ mile high speed setup. 8)

 

[Larry]

Sure would be nice to know whether the BMSs will need to be bypassed (like the Dewalts) or whether the BMS will work ok unaltered like the MIlwaukee's. Sure would be nice if they have some sort of available connector blocks like Milwaukee or if the connectors on them are such that they could at least be connected with quick connects or something. I'll have to go try to find them in a store and see what they look like.

Anybody out there rigged these up on a bike yet?

 

[EMF]

Man it's tempting to get some of these for an alternate system... can't afford it though right now.

I hear you bro!

Sure would be nice to know whether the BMSs will need to be bypassed (like the Dewalts) or whether the BMS will work ok unaltered like the MIlwaukee's. Sure would be nice if they have some sort of available connector blocks like Milwaukee or if the connectors on them are such that they could at least be connected with quick connects or something.

I would probably pull them out of the cases to save room and weight. From what I have been reading, these things do not need balancing and I read where one RC guy has 200 cycles with no balancing and no problemo!

Plus, if I am not mistaken, these cells are actually 3.7 volts, not 3.3 like A123. So- more power!

Maybe just a low voltage cutoff .. even just the CA could be safe enough. Damn, I wish I hadn't already loaded up on Dewalts, these are some good cells at a great price. 800 dollars for a 74 volt 10 amp hour pack. And that is figuring 2.0 amp hours for cells rated at 2.4. *Drool*

30+ MPH easy with a 408 and 26 inch rim and a good 25 mile range @ 20+ MPH without even pedaling I bet. Pedal and go 40 miles I would guess....

 

[tropmonky]

Nice find being that the Dewalt packs are still so expensive! Anyone have a guess when the A123 cells will come down to normal people prices?

 

[txhokie4life]

According to Amazon this is a 36v2Ahr pack for ~$90 on ebay delivered.

that puts it at ~$4.50 Ahr if we assume 10 cells at ~3.6v and 2Ahr.

I'm still doing my homework -- but that seems to be a bit pricey relative to
raw cells (assuming you trust the sources!) depending on how much
you believe the 10C and 15C speculations.

m

 

[ZapPat]

According to Amazon this is a 36v2Ahr pack for ~$90 on ebay delivered.

that puts it at ~$4.50 Ahr if we assume 10 cells at ~3.6v and 2Ahr.

I'm still doing my homework -- but that seems to be a bit pricey relative to
raw cells (assuming you trust the sources!) depending on how much
you believe the 10C and 15C speculations.

m

2 packs for 160$ is 80$ each, and at 72Wh per pack, that's just over 1$ per watt-hour ---> A great deal if you consider what these cells can give compared to slightly cheaper ones. It all depends on your application. I'm thinking about putting a couple of these in parallel with my Ping pack in case I want to do fast regen, or have big bursts of power available!

The only thing I really don't like about using these power tool packs is the extra garbage they will generate because of the plastic cases they are in. We live in a bit of a crazy world, where you have to buy extra garbage just to pay less for the same final product!! Anyone have ideas or opinions about this problem?

 

[txhokie4life]

Has anyone used these or similar paks as the basis for a 20+kW average and 200kW peak system
for an Electronic Automobile conversion?

Anyone know what the rated cycle life is?

M

 

[Larry]

I can't seem to find these at Home Depot or Lowes. I think they have quit carrying them. I would like to take a look at them just to see if there is any way to attach some wires to the terminals.

Has anyone actually seen one of these close up enuff to tell whether you can get some quick connects on them or not?

 

[pwbset]

I can't seem to find these at Home Depot or Lowes.

Awhile back when I was wanting to utilize my never used yet loaded with $1,000s Home Depot card ( ) I was told by both my local Home Depot and the Lowes that they don't carry the DeWalt or Bosch 36v or the Milwaukee and DeWalt 28v because of "liability issues". "Those voltages are too high for our average customer". Whatever...

 

[Joey]

I was hoping somebody would have answered Larry's questions by now. I was wondering the same things -- can unmodified Bosch BAT836 packs be combined in the same manner as Milwaukee V28 packs and if so, how can I get my hands on some mating block connectors.

(1) Can the Bosch BAT836 Li-ion battery packs be paralleled without bypassing the internal BMS's? How many allowed in parallel? Would six be ok?

(2) Can the Bosch BAT836 Li-ion battery packs be connected in series pairs without bypassing the internal BMS's? Can the series pairs be paralleled (e.g. 2s4p of packs)?

(3) Does anybody know where to get mating connector blocks? What is the part number?

-- Joey

 

[bigbirdlover]

What would be REALLY great, is if some Handsome, intelligent, and intellectual guy would put a picture build of a good 48 volt pack of these babies on here for us Newbies!
(Got the tools, need the brains!) signed, Blonde in Iowa....

 

[pwbset]

What would be REALLY great, is if some Handsome, intelligent, and intellectual guy would put a picture build of a good 48 volt pack of these babies on here for us Newbies!
(Got the tools, need the brains!) signed, Blonde in Iowa....

You must be blonde because you can't build a 48v pack with these batts. :wink: :lol:

I do agree with you though.... wish someone would experiment with these. Konion cell info is plentiful at least.

 

[bigbirdlover]

Well, DUH! I MEANT by tearing them apart & adding others. I do do electrical, just not DC. BTW, I'd actually like a 36 volt pack, because I'm only going 5 miles each way, but I need more speed, and I'm particularly interested in a way to use the packs with minimal alteration, like the ones I've seen some members using, so original quick charger could be used. I'm more interested in adding speed than distance. 20" wheel, Giant Revive bike. Plenty of time to recharge at work, have my own shop there, with car available. Like to retain some use of batteries for other things.

 

[bigbirdlover]

http://visforvoltage.org/vehicle/%5Buser%5D/2356

This is kind of what I'm looking for, anyone know how he made this setup? I found this on V is for voltage site, daniel828 built it. Without the bike, of course!

 

[TylerDurden]

I don't recall if the BMS in the packs can support serial configuration. DeWalt users regularly bypass the BMS and discharge directly from the cells, the use the standard connections for charging. (altho the DeW chargers are reported to be lame).

Sorry, I got no pix of Bosch.

FWIW, I use Ridgid packs: 24V 3Ah, safe to run in serial through the BMS (48V), avail at HD, lifetime replacement... I use them as much in my tools as in my bike.

If you only need 48V they may be a viable option for you.