Another 36V Li-ion Battery : BOSCH !!

[Doctorbass]

Hi Bigbirdlover,

Make a search on Konions and read the posts about them made by Doctorbass there's alot of pictures about them with explanations, and how to do it. My 58.8Volt pack is made in 30P 14 S configuration.

I have 30 cell welded in parallel (4.2 volt, 45 amps, fully charged) and you need to make at total of 14 pack like this. is really important that each of those 14 pack cells as the same voltage (balancing) before connecting them in series.

In this case it's gives you 58.8 fully charges 51.8 volt nominal and 43 volt when my batteries pack is discharged at about 3 volt for each cells.

As an exemple to make a 48 Volt pack at 30 Amps (300 amps at 10C) :

you can use 20P , 13 S configuration. Fully charge the voltage is 54.6 Volt, 48.1 Volt nominal (about half discharge), and 39 volt (discharged)

How many cells you need to do i s easy to calculate 20P x 13S = 260 cells. You can build any 48 volt pack likes this to meet your needs.

Have a nice day!
bikeraider

Thanks Bikeraider dor linking my konion battery pack idea :wink: .. I have just a little and IMPORTANT correction to to about your statement:

"

is really important that each of those 14 pack cells as the same voltage (balancing) before connecting them in series.

"

That'S also most important for parealleling every cells un the parallel group too!!! cause to parallel a lower cell (like 0.3V and + difference) with charged cell would dammage it .. carse it would charge at too high current from the other cells juice...

for that reason i would recommand to parallel matched cells that ONLY HAVE 0.150V difference MAX from the others... if it's not the case, then charge it seperatly and then join it to the rest of parallel cells in the group.

Doc

 

[64ragtop]

Well, I just couldn't stand it anymore I went HERE: http://bosch.cpotools.com/accessories/batteries/

and bought: 2 Bosch 36V Litheon FatPack Batteries (BAT836) and the matching 1-Hour Charger (BC830). Both items have their
"3 year ProVantage Warranty and 30 Day Money Back Guarantee".

The three items and shipping Came in just over $140.00. One of you math heads wanna do the calc for the economics I've bought into?

Now I'll need to cobble up suitable bracketry and contacts to mount the batteries and feed the amps to my controller. Compared to the construction projects some of you folks have done, it oughtta be a piece of cake!

P. S. Tyler D., any pics of your Rigid battery setup on your bike for inspiration?

More later!

ATB

BC

 

[TylerDurden]

more here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=616

 

[bigbirdlover]

64ragtop, how did you get them so cheap? It says $79., for just one batt! TylerDuran, thanks for clarifying, I'm definitely planning on charging them separately. Wanna use 'em in my tools too, so I need a fast charging battery or it wouldn't work. I'm using sla's now, 36 volts, 12Ah, how much batt do I need to increase speed? I don't need more distance. I'd sure like to see a pic of that guy's mount that I posted the pic of, it was low to the ground, & I'm pretty top heavy right now, too much weight in the back.

 

[dnmun]

you will likely have to upgrade your controller if you increase voltage, why not buy a 36V15Ah lifepo4 to replace the SLA when it goes out? i saw several revives in the power assist picture section:
http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/photos/browse/9d79?b=17&m=t&o=0

 

[64ragtop]

64ragtop, how did you get them so cheap? It says $79., for just one batt! TylerDuran, thanks for clarifying, I'm definitely planning on charging them separately. Wanna use 'em in my tools too, so I need a fast charging battery or it wouldn't work. I'm using sla's now, 36 volts, 12Ah, how much batt do I need to increase speed? I don't need more distance. I'd sure like to see a pic of that guy's mount that I posted the pic of, it was low to the ground, & I'm pretty top heavy right now, too much weight in the back.

$79.95 X 2 (batteries) + $71.16 (charger) + $9.95 (shipping) = $241.01 right from the site I linked to.

Speed increase? How fast do ya wanna go? How much money do you have?

I'm willing to go with the idea that you are running a stock motored 24 volt bike (I can't find where you said what you're riding, if you did)
The simplest ans quickest speed upgrade in just to overvolt your present setup. I think I've seen posts stating that lots of the 24 volt rigs can take 36 through the controller and motor. I'll be finding that out for myself pretty soon. The extra 50% voltage will not give 50% more speed, as some of the extra volts and amps will become heat. Heat is the mortal enemy of solid state electronics and motors. And they each run on magic smoke. If ya let the smoke out of 'em, they will not work without MAJOR repairs :lol: :lol: :lol:

My Diamond Stiletto is gonna be a lot like Gonzo's at: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4958 and DirtDad's at: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5119&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I already have the bike and the Crystalyte 5304 rear hub motor, waiting on a front fork modification for adding a V-brake and (of course) MY BATTERIES!!!

I think I will get the Cycle Analyst from: http://ebikes.ca/store/store_accessories.php to keep from running my new Bosch batteries too low.
It seems to be the accepted standard in battery monitoring (along with several other functions) and I've gotten some tech info from them by email and read their site and become convinced that they're primo folks to deal with.

ATB

BC

 

[bigbirdlover]

I posted a pic above, its a 36 volt SLA wilderness brushless kit, top speed now is around 12-14 mph, don't really know for sure because I don't have the speedometer mounted. I dropped one of my sla's moving the pack, got distracted by company & cross wired one of the batts, so the controller is toast anyway. The batteries test ok with a battery meter, but who knows. I ordered a new one off of ebay for $68., it can be seen here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300252066646&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=020 , He says "this controller use 100v/470uf capacity and 80nf10 mosfets." Now, it's probably a piece of crap, but I was in a hurry, and the price was right! Lol! So I'll give it a shot, have to change the plugs to fit, which for me will require a lot of thought, and help from some old dudes I know here who are electrically inclined.View attachment 7228.jpg

 

[bigbirdlover]

Oh, and I'm on a budget, so no Lifepo, Have to keep it under $250., plus need to be able to use whatever I buy for other things, and tools are a tax writeoff! Would like to hit 20mph if possible, I make it to work in 15 minutes now, 4 miles, more or less. That Diamond Stiletto is a sexy ride!

 

[64ragtop]

Oh, and I'm on a budget, so no Lifepo, Have to keep it under $250., plus need to be able to use whatever I buy for other things, and tools are a tax writeoff! Would like to hit 20mph if possible, I make it to work in 15 minutes now, 4 miles, more or less. That Diamond Stiletto is a sexy ride!

I bought the Stiletto and the 5304 before finding this forum and seeing those other guys' projects. You may have seen Dirtdads note to Gonzo about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery. Well, I'll second that! There will be detail differences, but my Stiletto won't look dramatically different from theirs. The bike is discontinued, so I have no fear of finding myself in a parade of them here in South Austin, Texas.

If I understand the specs on the controller you ordered, you're gonna have to get your voltage above 62 to keep the under voltage protection from shutting the controller down. That's gonna mean doubling your current battery pack and the amount of lead you're carrying. Don't make the mistake of buying cheap 12 volt SLA batteries. I got mine at the local "Batteries Plus" store, and they couldn't keep up with the hills here. The folks at the store are working with me to get some high discharge rate batteries, PowerSonics' new high rate units designed for e-bikes and scooters. I'm thinking you want to closely match your existing batteries characteristics, which is gonna take some research. I got some info in the thread titled "SLA again....". Then spent time on the battery makers and sellers' sites and called Batteries Plus, just because they're established and LOCAL! Well, they're a franchise chain of stores, but the folks here in the South Austin store have been really helpful once they knew what the project was.

If I understand the Under voltage protection circuit's function, it shuts down when the batteries are getting low. As you may know, a load will try to draw all the watts it wants. Thus when the volts go low (batteries getting low) the current will rise. More current = MORE HEAT, and danger of letting out that magic smoke. You might want to try canceling that order and getting a controller from him that won't shut down at 36 volts (or whatever you'll be running).

I would mention this site, and perhaps reference this thread when corresponding with him.

Or I might be WRONG about either of my points.

ATB

BC

 

[bigbirdlover]

I will definitely email him and check on it, didn't think of that! I would really like to switch to bosch 36 volt, using the stock charger, so I'm most interested in the design mods using those, figure I can build it over the winter, an add to my "stash" of batteries. I like the fact they don't need balancing. I've been doing a lot of research, I wish I was better at this stuff! I really like TylerDuran's pack, that's just what I need, just have to figure out a different mount, etc. The revive is very light in front,changing tires now & adding front luggage mount. Thanks for the tip, BTW...

 

[64ragtop]

I like the look of Tyler's pack, too. Since I don't know how the batteries fit the charger, it's unclear just how he uses those packs in his power tools. Perhaps the wires plug into the battery packs somehow??? If so, I would have to have color coded the wires or look like Wyle E. Coyote after the BANG!!! in those Road Runner cartoons. (Still some of the funniest 'toons EVER In My Humble Opinion!)

When the Bosch packs arrive, I'll post pics of them and the progress in building the mounting and contact assemblies. From my reading so far, it looks like a plastic or fiberglass/resin board like computer motherboards are made of might be best for the main material, then some sort of brass or copper contacts and a latching mechanism and a security arrangement!

I would like to find a local walk-in source of the board material, but it looks like it's gonna be internet sourced. I may rough it together on plywood or something similar 'cause I'm impatient.

Anyone here that has actual hands on experience with these Bosch batteries? I don't mind being the guinea pig here, but I would happily follow someone else, too. Why re-invent the wheel? Unless, of course, any predecessors have to write from long term care and physical rehab facilities ....

ATB

BC

 

[TylerDurden]

I was inspired by ES member Jondoh's use of Milwaukee V28 batteries... Like Jon, I ordered connector blocks direct, from the parts page of the mfr website. In my case, I had to find them as parts for the 24v flashlight. (simple & cheap... no fancy saw switch $$$)

IIRC, Jon is still using the packs in native form... his brother, ES member Maytag used Milwaukee cells to make an elaborate custom pack for his bike & BMC hubmotor.

I usually don't need to travel far, so I use just four 3ah packs in parallel; I put em in the standard chargers after returning.

 

[Stevil_Knevil]

Anyone here that has actual hands on experience with these Bosch batteries? I don't mind being the guinea pig here, but I would happily follow someone else, too.

ATB

BC

A few others spherites have taken the cordless power tool battery power route before - without needing to extract the raw cells from the packs. I cannot imagine why a series of paralleled 'shoes' for these packs would not work VERY well in an ebike.

Assuming that these packs are made of 20, 1100-1200 mAh 3.7V (nom.) LiMn cells; 6 paralleled Bosch '36V' packs = 37V @ ~13Ah, correct?

I believe that LiMN have a shelf life.. somewhere ~3 years? Hmmm, wondering how old are these eBay/Amazon packs :?

NOT to deter you, BC ..just observing guinea pigs in their natural environment

 

[RealPeterPan]

hey..
the picture (sorry for bad quality, was taken at that time with old handy)
shows my pack..

these are 10s2p Sony US18650VT

you can find a discharge-graph of this cell here:
http://www.elektromodellflug.de/akku-test/LiIonM-1100.htm
the first diagramm

the cell has 1000-1100mah, depending on discharage current
the cell is "eigensicher", so does not burn/explode like old-style LiIons
its based on Mangan

trade off: the discharge-curve at the second halfe is going down and down slowly..
so not comparable for example with the discharge-curve of a A123 that says at same level and falls off at the end of discharge

the Konion1100 how we call them (Sony US18650VT) is now used for maybe 3-4 years in our hobby (rc-planes)

its a very reliable cell
its maybe the only cell which realy does not need any balancer !
in the bosch-pack there is also no balancer included, because not needed

for use at high currents:
in rc-helicopters the cell has proven over last 3 years, that it will hold 200-300cycles at that high currents
(Nimh last in same helis ~50-100cylces, lipos ~70-150cycles)

meanwhile there is a stronger cell, with all good behaviour (no balancer needed) of the old one,
we name it: Konion1300
-->
http://www.elektromodellflug.de/akku-test/Konion-1300.htm

for low-power applications like e-bike this cell can be great
oh: you can charge them with 2C, no problem

Mahlzeit Kräuterbutter.

These stonger cells (Konion1300), did you find a source for them yet and can you tell us some prices?
I´d prefer european sources anyway but maybe also for US.

Regards Sven

 

[bigbirdlover]

THIS guy on you tube shows a great pack with slide in mounts, no mods to batts whatsoever, check it out, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDNHntWYhEI
Need to know how he does the controller connections though, & how the pack is made.

 

[docnjoj]

Usually we measure capacity in Wh/hrs. Thats about $1.38/wh/hr@ $100 delivered! Thats not so bad for cells that dont need to be balanced!
otherDoc
edit: Duh! Only saw the first page!

 

[64ragtop]

THIS guy on you tube shows a great pack with slide in mounts, no mods to batts whatsoever, check it out, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDNHntWYhEI
Need to know how he does the controller connections though, & how the pack is made.

YEAH! That's what I'm talking about!! I hadn't thought of using "repair" parts to construct my battery holder/contact devices. I'd been planning on cobbling up something, but if "off the shelf" parts can be use (or misused), so much the better! Now, off to Bosch repair parts listings!!! Thanks, bigbirdlover

 

[bigbirdlover]

No problemo. You were right about the undercurrent protection, its "Under Voltage Protection: 62 Volts", (sigh). NOW what? Maybe I can trade someone for a smaller used one that wants to upgrade... How many bosch 36 volt batts would I need to keep it safe? I only ride it 5 miles each way, with a 5 hour layover. I just wanna go Faster

 

[64ragtop]

Well, over an hour spent looking for "Bosch tool repair parts" and variants without success. I found several sites, but searching them for parts for a couple of model numbers of Bosch 36 volt cordless tools repeatedly turned up no hits. Maybe these tools are too new to be needing repair parts??? Or there's a flaw in my search method?

It just may be back to building the interface myself, which doesn't really look too daunting from the pics of the batteries I've found. I used to build all sorts of electrical and electronic gadgets to do stuff in my radio stations, and I built my own model slot car chassis from raw brass tube, rod and sheet stock.

HAVE TOOLS, WILL COBBLE Hey, that could work for a business card for a traveling tinker kinda like the old TV show "Paladin"

My batteries are supposed to be delivered tomorrow (Wednesday), so we'll just see then!

ATB

BC

 

[64ragtop]

No problemo. You were right about the undercurrent protection, its "Under Voltage Protection: 62 Volts", (sigh). NOW what? Maybe I can trade someone for a smaller used one that wants to upgrade...

What's the order status on the one you ordered? Is it too late to cancel and order a lower voltage controller? Have ya tried to email ecrazyman? Several folks here have posted about him, and I don't recall any bad comments. Of course, if he's quick on fulfillment and your controller has already shipped, return shipping might not work economically. In that case, it doesn't seem TOO unlikely that one of the voltage phreaks here would be willing to trade up and let you trade down

ATB

BC

 

[bigbirdlover]

The toolbarn has the flashlights for 36 volts for $44., but a lot of people buy the combo set, with 2 batteries, cut the flashlights up for mounts, sell the drills, etc., separately on ebay, and they go HIGH. Of course a lot of batteries come with end cap plastic covers, you could bastardize those by adding 220 slide in blades to those somehow, not really sure of the logistics. Or we could beg the guy on you tube for his secret pack recipe! Bosch may have a comparable attachment. I'm not really sure, it's been a week, but no tracking from Hong Kong. I'd hate to ruin my perfect record on ebay!

 

[bigbirdlover]

All we really need is the replacement part for the bottom of the flashlight, which I'm betting I can get at my favorite Bosch/Dewalt/Black& Decker dealer.

 

[64ragtop]

All we really need is the replacement part for the bottom of the flashlight, which I'm betting I can get at my favorite Bosch/Dewalt/Black& Decker dealer.

I made an ASSumption that the battery mount would be molded into the body of the tool. If that's NOT the case, then you're right. Having made that assumption, though, I went searching my local hardware store for parts I can modify into Bosch battery connectors. The best I've found looks like plastic electrical wall boxes that I used in a previous incarnation as an apprentice electrician.

View attachment Wallbox (Small).JPG

I'm cutting the boxes roughly in half and adding brass sheet stock from the hobby shop for the contacts. it's very much a cut and try approach, but it's looking good, and I've only trashed one box so far.

I'll post pics of what I've actually done in a bit - too busy with Dremel tool and etc to take photos just now.

ATB

BC

 

[bigbirdlover]

They make a shallow box similar to that also, I use them in mobile homes a lot, Yes please let let know how you do it, I really appreciate it. Got the new controller, just trying to find connectors now so I can make adapter plugs. I don't want to modify existing in case I need to return it or trade. And no schematic, its got 4 extra connectors that aren't marked, probably for testing.

 

[HornetB]

So has anyone hooked these up in series yet or used them in the stock pack-paralleled or series? I'd really like to know if they can handle a series connection to make 72v.

If you habe please speak up. Thanks, HB