Batteries Li-ion, LiFePO4, Li Co or Imr Li-ion hybrids?

[wesnewell]

I don't test batteries to see if they meet their advertised C rates. I've used cheap 10C 6s batteries that worked well in an 18s2p config with a 40A controller, and I used some 15C Zippy packs in a 24s1p config that worked ok on the same 40A controller, but they sagged down 10V under heavy load. I've been running 20C 5ah Turnigy in a 24s2p config for over 2 years nad 8K miles with the same 40A controller without any problems, but I never hit them with more than a 40A load. The pack is rated 200A/300A. Will it do it without having a problem? Don't know, but I doubt it. Luckily it doesn't matter. I was expecting to replace them after 2 years, but have now set my sights on at least 3 years and 12K miles.

 

[dnmun]

Hm. So is there any Lifepo4 batteries that actually are for real? If it's all lies and cheap knock-offs sold for the price of gold it's makes it easier to understand why no more people jump aboard the electric vehicle boat. Lies, scams and knockoffs. It really does not help where you try to make a purchase. You try to order a few Adidas products online and they get tagged in customs as knockoffs counterfeit clothing. A few years back on of the big retail chains here got caught for selling hi end sporting goods and clothings as the real thing while it was actual fakes. I hate the fact that it's so much scamming everywhere.

Is there any manufacturers or retailers of batteries that do actually test their products and label them according to pure facts rather then overselling and overstating so they can sell at inflated prices?

It's not even worth proceeding with an e-bike if one can't even make plans based on the facts one is served from a retailers website. And for sure not I will not giveany money to stealing con artists like hobbyking.com. There is no point to try to by Lico batteries from hobbyking.com either. Those 90 C Lico batteries are probably also just fake labeled bullshit and are more likely 9 C rated then 90 C rated.

Where can I go to find legit batteries, with proper labeling, complete specs and zero scam?


Links to any website with a proven track record will be very much appreciated.

how can you make such statements if you have no idea about the world you so new to? what makes you an expert with no experience? i never understood how total newbies come here and are busting out with insults and advice when they have no idea what they are talking about. li lo? who makes it?

unlike the other guy, i have tested capacity of the HK lipo packs and they do put out the entire rated capacity when fully charged. plus almost 1-2% more.

 

[macribs]

So what about batteries from Allcelltech.com? They have "naked cells" for e--bikes and are made in the US.

See many e-bike shops carry that brand. Is that a seal of approval? Can we trust these guys, I mean a 96 v setup will run 2.500 $ so it better well work
Here are the one I was thinking of, two of those in series. 96 volt. 20 Ah 40 A.
http://www.ebikessf.com/allcell4820

But as usual for batteries there are not much information about the batteries, not even at the site of the manufacturer so I have no idea exactly what type of Li io batteries these are, nor do I know what C rating they have and even of that C rating is properly rated.

Technical data:

• Maximum continuous discharge current: 40A
• Maximum charge current: 5A
• Charge Voltage: 54.6V
• Built in battery management system balances cells and protects them from overcurrent, overcharge, overdischarge, high temperature, and short circuit.
• Size: 9.2 x 7.2 x 3.4” / 23 x 18 x 8 cm
• Weight: 12.9 lb / 5.9 kg
• 2.5A charger included.

Is this the price range one have to go in order to get some serious batteries for an e-bike?
If thats the case I will need to find a good working rolling chassis from a dirtbike with working brakes, suspensions and forks so I don't have to shell out for those parts.
And it's not like I will do much pedaling anyway so I could really not care too much about the final weight of the bike. A motocross chassis might seems overkill but I would not need to much bracing and re enforcement so I will save on build costs, and time at least. But in order for the bike to look good I guess some sheet metal work and welding will be required anyway. And lets not forget that pedal crank must be welded in so I can pretend to pedal if I spot the police

Btw Zero and their pairs what kind of motors are they using? Seems those motors are placed in the rear lower part of the frame or in between frame and sub frame.
Are those motors possible to get a hold of? I mean if I will be spending money like a drunk man I might as well go all in

 

[macribs]

how can you make such statements if you have no idea about the world you so new to? what makes you an expert with no experience? i never understood how total newbies come here and are busting out with insults and advice when they have no idea what they are talking about. li lo? who makes it?

unlike the other guy, i have tested capacity of the HK lipo packs and they do put out the entire rated capacity when fully charged. plus almost 1-2% more.

Well I based my comment purely on the what I found here at the forum, I have never claimed to be a expert. In fact times and times again I have stated that I am a total newbie and I have no ideas how to put a battery pack together. If you feel my comment was wrong I am sorry. But there are threads here at the forum clearly stating that hobbyking batteries are under par. And frankly if a 30 C battery is more like 3C then hobbyking needs to clean up their act. If there are post indicating I was in the wrong or if more then you will tell me I was in the wrong here I will completely withdraw my comments and apology to all parties offended.

For me it does not matter if that company primarily target RC market, I feel they should label their products appropriate no matter what.

Just to remind you he was not the first poster warning me about batteries from Hobbyking. So when I even forund threads here indicating that statement made in this thread was for real I reacted accordingly tough hotheaded and went on ranting about my thoughts about hobbyking. As I said it was not my intention to offend anyone, I wrote that in pure hotheaded rage and disappointment.

 

[dnmun]

i know you are not the first poster talking up all this hysteria about using the hobby king packs. since there has not been a single fire from overcharging using the RC balancing chargers except for the BC168 there is no reason for you to assume that every HK lipo pack is gonna explode.

fires were started by shorts of lifepo4 packs too. you just have to develop skills to learn how to mitigate the risk of wires shorting and catching the packs on fire. even the headway packs caused a fire when the charging lead shorted out against the frame of the bike.

the chinese are not ignorant and incompetent manufacturers either. they are not stealing your money by selling you something cheaper than the german or dutch suppliers. the pouch packs are very reliable and dependable especially considering their cost now compared to just a few years ago. i run my car on 8-9 year old ping packs.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Allcell's website states they make battery packs, not cells. I found nothing about them producing the cells, and no specs on the cells they use. They could be anything, based on the website.

A 20AH battery that can deliver 40AH is a 2C pack. That's really not very impressive performance, and shouldn't be used on a Cromotor.

As I'd posted, 20C HK packs gave me 20C. I test my packs on the bike, in real world conditions. As for capacity, I've found all packs that I've had gave more than 100% when new.

From your questions and statements, it sounds like you may have a disconnect in your understanding of batteries.
So some basics:
Amps: This is the total volume off electrons flowing through a wire.
Volts: This is the amount of pressure forcing the amps down the wire.
Watts. this is the total amount of energy, the total amount of work that the combined amps and volts can do.
Amp Hours. This is a rating of capacity in amps per hour. 1AmpHour = 1 amp of electrons flowing for 1 hour.
Watt hours. This is the total amount of power that flows per hour. 1 watt hour = 1 watt flowing for 1 hour.
C rate: This is the amount of amps that can flow out of a battery, rated as a a number times the battery's capacity. 10 amp battery at 2C can handle 20 amps.
Amps X resistance = Volts
Amps X Volts = Watts
Amp hours X volts = Watt hours

And more useful info:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion

 

[macribs]

Yes I sure know little about batteries, and even after reading pages on pages about the topic it's still not sitting well.
Can't teach an old dog new tricks maybe?

I did some more reading and I found that Sony has a new battery out, the Sony 18650 30a Vtc5 2600mah.
According to http://www.electricbike.com/high-current-batteries-not-lipo/ and a build thread here even madin88 is considering those for his cromotor bike.

Googling these hybrid batteries I found this on another forum:

advantages of IMR vs standard lithium ion batteries

These are the new standard in which to judge all other IMR's! What are the advantages of IMR vs standard lithium ion batteries?
Longer Life over typical Lithium Ion batteries
Higher output. Up to 10 amps continuous discharge
IMR is considered a safer technology, less chance of explosions
Much less voltage sag so your lights stay bright longer
Many people have been asking if these really are IMR batteries. This is a direct quote from a Panasonic Press Release :
"Panasonic has introduced a new high rate lithium ion cell CGR18650CH. The cell’s Nickel Manganese-based cathode material delivers higher discharge rates and better energy density and voltage than comparative cells. CGR18650CH cells are suitable for multi-cell applications."
So the short answer is Yes they are IMR.

Sony VTC5 18650 2600mAh 30A


Model SONY-VTC5
Producer Sony
Type 18650
Max discharge current 30 Ampere
Capacity 2600 mAh
Nom voltage 3,7 volt
Full voltage 4,2
Recargable Yes
Battery type Hybrid IMR Li-Ion
Weight 44 gram
Length 65,2 mm
Diameter 18,45 mm

** So by my poor understanding of batteries and electric I will try to set up a config ** What I can not understand is what A will I get from this setup.

Total of 130 Batteries. 96 volt and 13 Ah. (26S5P set up?)
26 batteries in serial to get 96 volt. That will only give me 2.6 Ah. So I make 5 cells/blocks of 26 serial batteries and put them in parallel. Is this the correct and proper way to make a battery pack? And do I use the correct terms, 26S5P?

Or should I make twice the amount of batteries in parallel? So it would be 26S10P? I would double the number of batteries but still rather OK weight, 12 kilos. Will the cromotor be able to draw enough power from 26S5P set up or go 26S10P?

Maybe hook them up differently to get even more volt and more Ah?

 

[Drunkskunk]

Sony VTC5 is an IMR Hybrid battery. The IMR means it's a LiNn2O2 battery, they hybrid means it uses Cobalt as well, making it LiMnCO2. It has some of the high amp capability of a LiCo, but with some of the stability of the LiMn.

They certainly are an option. it has good points and bad. This dude explains IMR cells well: random non-ES web forum

If you built that battery as a 26S5P, you would put the 5P part together first, then stack 26 groups of them together in series. Parallel first allows the 5 cells to support each other, and keep each other balanced better.

 

[macribs]

Sony VTC5 is an IMR Hybrid battery. The IMR means it's a LiNn2O2 battery, they hybrid means it uses Cobalt as well, making it LiMnCO2. It has some of the high amp capability of a LiCo, but with some of the stability of the LiMn.

They certainly are an option. it has good points and bad. This dude explains IMR cells well: random non-ES web forum

If you built that battery as a 26S5P, you would put the 5P part together first, then stack 26 groups of them together in series. Parallel first allows the 5 cells to support each other, and keep each other balanced better.

Great thanks man for putting up with all my stupid questions. What kind of A will I get from 26S5P batterypack? or is it watt?
I mean the amount of power the cromotor can draw ie a max acceleration situation?

 

[dnmun]

you will not be able to find a 26S lipo BMS, and if you charge to full voltage of 109.2V DC then there are very few options for a controller. even a 24S lipo pack is 100.8V which is beyond the limit for the IRFB4110s and the 100V input caps.

 

[macribs]

you will not be able to find a 26S lipo BMS, and if you charge to full voltage of 109.2V DC then there are very few options for a controller. even a 24S lipo pack is 100.8V which is beyond the limit for the IRFB4110s and the 100V input caps.

Well then I will need to use lower voltage. I see the adaptto Maxi E can only use V up to 98 volt. I saw there would be a v2 of the maxi that handles 150V but I have no idea when that will be out in the market. I don't even know if the design and testing is completed yet.

But if I lower the volt so that I won't go beyond 98 volt for the Maxi E can I then use their BMS?

BMS major features:
 For batteries upto 100V & 32 cells in series
 BMS will consist of the main board and auxiliary balancing boards for up to 4S6P each with standard JSTXH connectors, so no more pain with rewiring the Li-Po packs
 Adjustable overcharge/overdischarge cell cut-off voltages for use on any battery type and
 BUS interface between the BMS and controller
 LVC compatibility with most of the existing controllers
 May also be used without the controller set, but with factory presets at your request

So I can go with 24S5P for a 88.8 volt 13 Ah battery pack? And still use the Maxi E?
And a newbie Q in the end, what will be the max power the cromotor will be able to draw from that 24S5P batterypack?

 

[wesnewell]

When building a battery pack forget the motor. It has absolutely nothing to do with the battery size or capacity you need. The controller is what draws power from the battery, not the motor, and that's what you need to match your battery pack to. So for a 26s5p battery pack, you need a controller that can handle the fully charged voltage of the pack, which will be 26x4.2, 109.2V. The C rate on those batteries are ~11.5C, so 5p (13ah) puts their rated max amp output at 150A. Now cut that in half and you have a reasonable max output, without stressing the cells too much. So you need a controller that will draw no more than 75A and support a voltage of 109V. So what does all this mean? It means you need to decide on the controller specs first and then build your battery pack to match it. And i could put together an rc lipo pack in minutes rated for 2 to 4 times the output power of those little 18650 cells that will take hours to assemble and then be a bitch to fix if one of the connections break. And the cost of that 18650 pack will be, well, I'll let you figure that out. A 10ah 28s rc lipo pack will be ~$300. But I'd use 24s anyway.

 

[macribs]

When building a battery pack forget the motor. It has absolutely nothing to do with the battery size or capacity you need. The controller is what draws power from the battery, not the motor, and that's what you need to match your battery pack to. So for a 26s5p battery pack, you need a controller that can handle the fully charged voltage of the pack, which will be 26x4.2, 109.2V. The C rate on those batteries are ~11.5C, so 5p (13ah) puts their rated max amp output at 150A. Now cut that in half and you have a reasonable max output, without stressing the cells too much. So you need a controller that will draw no more than 75A and support a voltage of 109V. So what does all this mean? It means you need to decide on the controller specs first and then build your battery pack to match it. And i could put together an rc lipo pack in minutes rated for 2 to 4 times the output power of those little 18650 cells that will take hours to assemble and then be a bitch to fix if one of the connections break. And the cost of that 18650 pack will be, well, I'll let you figure that out. A 10ah 28s rc lipo pack will be ~$300. But I'd use 24s anyway.

For controller I will use the Adaptto Maxi E.

Well those lipo packs are those the same as lico? Or LiFePO4?

I must say I am a little concerned about the Lico batteries catching fire. I have a power outlet down in the basement garage where I planned to do the charging over night. So I can not monitor the charging. Yes I do have smoke detectors, alarms, gas and heat sensors but I would really prefer not to test out the system. And btw, no auto watering pouring if fire. Just a loud alarm.

So I was kind of happy with the hybrid battery. But yes you are correct, they are expensive as a mofo, and a biatch to weld.
So I would most likely outsource that spot welding spending even more money on labor.

Is there any setup/config I could use to get enough power from a LiFePO4 batterypack to max out the capability of the Maxi E and controller, to give the cromotor best possible working conditions for excellent performance?

 

[macribs]

you will not be able to find a 26S lipo BMS, and if you charge to full voltage of 109.2V DC then there are very few options for a controller. even a 24S lipo pack is 100.8V which is beyond the limit for the IRFB4110s and the 100V input caps.

Hm. Maybe I should not be locked completely on the Adaptto Maxi E. I see that the Lyen controllers can handle even higher voltage because of his use of high voltage IRFB4115 MOSFETs. It can handle up to 132 volt input.

But that is without BMS as far as I can tell.

It is like 500 $ cheaper as well compared to the Adaptto so extra money for batteries

 

[macribs]

I came across different battery packs made up with hybrid imr 18650 li-ion, PCB protected packs. Means no overcharge no discarge below cut off point. Nicely shrink wrapped together with two cables coming out from the pack.

So that means it is possible to combine packs in any combination (to meet v and Ah needs) without needing to do spot welding?


Do the "PCB protected" mean they have built in BMS?

If not would any BMS be sufficient, ie Adaptto BMS?

So that should take care of my worries about lico batteries. Does anyone have first hand experience with Chinese made imr 18650 li-ion packs? Thinking of stable cells if handled well within limits, longevity similar to main producers like Sony? And what do you find is the best feature of using hybrid batteries like imr li-ion?

 

[wesnewell]

Running 24s lipo on a 72V controller with 100V caps and fets is not a problem. I've been doing it for over 2 years with mine, It's less than 1% over spec and that will drop to within specs not long after riding. Or if you're chicken, only charge to 100V (4.166V per cell) instead of 100.8V (4.2V per cell). That will also help battery life too.