Battery Pack Price Variations..

[1800vtx]

I've been noticing a lot of variations on battery pack pricing through various online resellers.

I'm going to assume this is a seasonal thing since summer just started and its full swing for most construction projects.

Am I off on this assumption?

If not, when do you guys feel is the best time of the year to go 'hunting' for battery packs?

 

[Battboy]

There is no "battery pack season". This is not like deer hunting. It doesn't matter WHEN you shop - what matters is what kind of battery you are shopping for ?

Best,

Don Harmon

 

[1800vtx]

There is no "battery pack season". This is not like deer hunting. It doesn't matter WHEN you shop - what matters is what kind of battery you are shopping for ?

Best,

Don Harmon

Gotta disagree Don..

I'm familiar with the various chemistries, but I also realize that online retailers have the ability to adjust their pricing based on demand for any products they sell. Its the same as if you were to stay at hotel. If you were to stay during the weekdays Mon-Thurs. you're going to be paying a lower rate than if you were staying Fri-Sun because of increased demand during those days. I've even seen this being done with newer vending machines where the outside temperature determines the rate a can of soda.. if its hotter outside the price can jump 25-50 cents.

So when I say I'm seeing a change in the pricing for certain Lithium based power packs online, it is due to an increase in demand during the summer (due to increased construction).

My question is in relation to when the 'low' part of the year occurs?

 

[Battboy]

I guess we don't follow that logic. Our LiFePO4 follows a trend that is involved with how many cells we can produce, not what day or night you happen to want to buy them. In other words, the price follows a curve that is based on production volume at the time you are wanting to order. The greater the production volume we have the lower the prices can be IF there is any surplus production volume. If not, then the price will stay flat all days of the year.

Best,

Don Harmon

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I would guess that the laws of supply and demand apply just as well to batteries as they do to any other product. With new technology, there is the added factor of market acceptance to consider, which affects the initial sales rates, but after that then I'd expect price to be pretty much driven by the normal rules.

Of course, there is the underpinning production cost, plus amortisation of R&D costs, that will set the lower bound, but as lithium battery production is an inherently very cheap process, in terms of cost of materials per cell, I doubt that this will be an effective limit. A quick look at the cost of "old" lithium technology cells shows that these now cost just pennies to manufacture, although they sold for many times the current price when first introduced.

Interestingly, lead acid batteries probably cost slightly more to manufacture than lithium cells, if only because the materials used require additional safety measures.

I doubt that the tiny demand from experimenters playing about with electric bikes has any impact at all on demand. China has a massive internal market, with millions of electric bikes being manufactured to meet it. The demand for laptop batteries is several orders of magnitude greater than the ebike market, and when the demand for standby power systems and the developing electric vehicle market in places like India is taken into account I doubt that there is any seasonal variation.

Prices will come down as more manufacturers ramp up production capacity to meet demand. It's inevitable that we'll see more and more cell manufacturers enter the market, particularly as there is an enormous amount of R&D effort going into this area at the moment (most of it in the Far East, as might be expected).

It's interesting to see how quickly this will develop. I'm sure it's driven largely by oil politics. Countries that don't want to be held hostage by the Western world domination of oil pricing will seek to gain some independence by investing in alternatives. It's no surprise to me that the majority of the worlds solar water heaters, batteries and now even small wind power plants, come from the Far East.

Jeremy

 

[Battboy]

I would have to agree with Jeremy on this. As we move from a dependence on fossil fuel to a variety basket of alternatives the world will benefit ultimately and perhaps we will have fewer wars over the planet's natural resources. As for large scale lithium battery production, he is correct that it's been done before but he fails to understand that LiFePO4 production is not like the other Lithium batteries of the past. It requires different machinery, special clean laminar air rooms, and a whole different protocol than the production of the old cobalt /magnesium scenario. Right now in the world there are NO factories set up to make LiFePO4 on a mass- production level yet. There are many who are doing their best to get there and he is right in that it is all happening in the far east. Our effort is centered in Taiwan, but other plants are springing up in China as well. The race is on folks and the planet will ultimately benefit from this technology. The solution to our energy problem will be a combination of oil, nuclear, battery, wind power, solar and maybe even hydrogen fuel cells? The key will be using them all together. ONE technology is not going to work this time around.

Don Harmon

 

[Battboy]

GM announces 6 year Zero % financing on all of their gas guzzlers to move them off the lot today.

For those who missed my earlier post, take a look at this speech John McCain made today:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/23/campaign.wrap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview#cnnSTCVideo

Cheers!

Don Harmon

 

[needWheels]

I've been noticing a lot of variations on battery pack pricing through various online resellers.

I'm going to assume this is a seasonal thing since summer just started and its full swing for most construction projects.

If you are talking about the sudden strange new LiFePo4 vendors that have been popping up on ebay, I've also been wondering what's going on. Since China cannot ship batteries now because of the olympics, these vendors must be out of Taiwan or Hong Kong. There's been no reports on quality, some of the vendors look kinda "scary" but I bet pingping looked like that in the beginning too.

 

[Battboy]

Can you find a better price on EBAY than the LiFeBATT Group Buy offers ?

Don Harmon

 

[Jozzer]

A better deal, is arguable, since no other vendors except A123 offer as good a cell.
But Lifebatt is still twice the price of most of the cheaper alternatives, even in the group buy. I hope to see the day when they are a quarter the price or less!

Just out of interest, Ebay Dewalt packs would cost around 15% more than the lifebatt group buy, and offer twice the performance or better.
Headway are in between the 1C (ping) cells and lifebatt, and cost half the lifebatt tag, offering half the performance (a reasonable 5C).

Deep breath before replying Don, i'm not being provocative, just putting it in perspective!

Steve

 

[Battboy]

A better deal, is arguable, since no other vendors except A123 offer as good a cell.
But Lifebatt is still twice the price of most of the cheaper alternatives, even in the group buy. I hope to see the day when they are a quarter the price or less!

Just out of interest, Ebay Dewalt packs would cost around 15% more than the lifebatt group buy, and offer twice the performance or better.
Headway are in between the 1C (ping) cells and lifebatt, and cost half the lifebatt tag, offering half the performance (a reasonable 5C).

Deep breath before replying Don, i'm not being provocative, just putting it in perspective!

Steve

Not going to bite your head off Steve, but not sure how you arrive at those conclusions ? Let me take them one at a time if I may:

1. DeWalt packs offer twice the performance or better - how so ?

2. Headway are in between the 1C Ping cells and LiFeBATT - what specs are you comparing ?

3. Headway offers a reasonable 5C @ half the price of LiFeBATT - Show me the Headway spec. and the Headway price that you are comparing to LiFeBATT.

Fair questions ?????

Don Harmon

 

[Ypedal]

I think Jozzer " summarized " it very well. ! :wink: ( as usual. there is a 10 page discussion as to why the details .. but yes.. well put )

Price, well.. during the time i waited for my current packs to arrive last year ( many moons ago in a land far far away .. or 6 months ) .. the price dropped by 50 %. oh well.. i'm using those now while alot of people are out trying to even get a pack. or a reply to an email.

Lets buy them all and compare what we got shall we !

 

[Anonymous]

Headway LiFePO4 Battery Testing

29th January 2008

http://www.zeva.com.au/tech/headway/

 

[Battboy]

It's officially Summer and the Early Birds get the worms

 

[Jozzer]

OK, so A123 offer twice the discharge rate of Lifebatt, both constant and peak. Voltage sag is less under any given load. My motorcycle will run well on a 10AH pack of dewalts, but needs a 30AH pack of lifebatts to see the same voltage under load for instance. A 60 or 70AH pack of headway cells would be required to match performance of the lifebatts, or 250AH of pings cells!
I'm comparing C rating, or the amount of power that can be drawn from a pack of a given size.
Headway offer 5C discharge, and price is£9.5 a cell ($19) for the same size cell as lifebatt. LIfebatt offer 10C (maybe 12, though voltage sag is getting bad by 10C) SO both price and performance are roughly half of the lifebatt.

Thanks for leaving my head Don, it's much nicer to chat this way

Still, anyone looking for cheap lifebatt season, the upcoming group buy is the best "buying season" yet to be offered!

 

[Battboy]

Hi Jozzer - Have you had a chance to try the LiFeBATT Cells. Are you across the pond ? Have you popped in on Ian Goodman and chatted with him yet ?

Best,

Don Harmon

 

[Ypedal]

Hey Don.. Quote Jozzer's sig :

" Aprilia RS125 with Perm132, Kelly 500A controller and lifebatt/A123 batteries. 80mph top speed."
:wink:

 

[Battboy]

Well then Jozzer knows how our cells perform. Why is making comparisons to Headway cells ? Anyway, he knows where he can get either I suppose and he will choose wisely.

Don Harmon

 

[pwbset]

Why is (he) making comparisons to Headway cells ?

It's pretty clear that Mr. Jozzer is just laying out the various levels of battery land bang for the buck for the masses, such as myself, that really don't know very much. I certainly appreciate it. Even my noobie-self can understand Ping->Headway->Lifebatt->A123 at this point. So A123s rule the playground... big deal... in this hyper-competitive world there is nothing wrong with being second best Mt. Harmon!

 

[jmygann]

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http://cgi.ebay.com/Electric-Bike-Bicycle-Scooter-LiFePO4-e-bike-cells_W0QQitemZ280237746597QQihZ018QQcategoryZ19025QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290239895858&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=019

http://cgi.ebay.com/Foxx-Power-LiFePo4-Battery-for-E-Bike_W0QQitemZ140242397282QQihZ004QQcategoryZ158998QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I think Steve (Jozzer) has done a pretty good job of laying out some of the key points. Headway cells cost me about £12 each, delivered to my door here in the UK. I understand that the LifeBatt group buy cells are going to be around the £20 each mark, plus delivery charges from the UK dealer. My guess is that the group buy LifeBatt cells will be pretty darned close to double the Headway price, but maybe they are actually twice as "good" (depending on your definition of "good").

Max discharge rate might be important for some, but actually isn't for others. For example, 5C is more than enough for my purposes, so a cell that delivers better than this at extra cost isn't going to make a great deal of economic sense to me.

Weight and capacity for the Headway 38120 cells and the Lifebatt cells is broadly comparable, so no appreciable advantage there.

LifeBatt cells are certainly much easier to hook up, those screw connections make pack building straightforward. However, they do make the cells longer, which makes it harder to fit as many in a confined space. Again it's a matter of choice - ease of connectivity against better packing density.

Cycle life is pretty irrelevant for most amateur builders, I expect. Anything over 1000 cycles is probably beyond the point where similar capacity loss through age may occur. Calendar life might be a more important parameter, but I don't know the ageing degradation figures for either of these cell types, so can't comment.

At the moment, A123 cells certainly look to be the best, based on real-world EV experience, but their lack of ready availability, lack of simple connectivity options and marginally greater cost makes them a challenging choice.

Finally, there now seems to be a growing band of very satisfied Thundersky users, at least here in the UK. These cells had a pretty grim start, with a lot of people getting caught out by poorer than expected performance and reliability, but there are a few heavy EV users here with a couple of years experience under their belt who would happily go and buy some more. Price wise, Thundersky cells purchased direct (not through Everspring) are part way between the Headway prices and the group buy LifeBatt price. They are heavier than either, but are, I believe, worth considering, if you can cope with the rectangular form factor and the need for compression straps around the pack.

People will always want to buy from a range of options to find out what best suits their need - so long as they get all the information they need to make this choice then I can't see there's too much of a problem.

Jeremy

 

[docnjoj]

Jeremy. What is the cost and how does one order, say, 12to16 cells? I know it was stated somewhere, but I cant find it! Duh!
(my legendary research skills at work) otherDoc

 

[Jozzer]

I've tried them alright Don, and they are working out quite well. I have one cell that is not as strong as the others, slightly higher impedance and needs balancing more than the others (typically about about 3% of pack total AH each week), but 1 cell out of a pack this size with such a small problem is pretty good going.
Send me another 10AH72v for free and I will take off the A123's and have "Lifebatt Powered" written in large letters on the bike :lol: (after all, it apears to be the fastest electric motorcycle in the UK at the moment, and is going to get pimped at all the EV shows/rally's/races around here)

I have tried many cells to date, and headway are next, had I not tried them all I wouldn't have said anything!

My only gripes about Lifebatt are cell price (it would be nice if they were cheap enough to offer competitive motorcycle conversions, but given time perhaps...)
And secondly, availability of bare cells. The HPS packs are far to big and cumbersome to fit a decent ranged pack onto a motorcycle, so bare cells are the only way I will consider buying for my conversions, and promises of supply have been on and off...typically, I have been offered a "one off deal", but been told that in future there will be no single cell sales, then a month later offered another deal. If (when) I finally start larger production runs of electric motorcycles, I need to know that I can get them, and at what price. For these reasons, as well as cost, it looks like Lifebatts are out of the game for me.
If a customer really wants the extra performance that 10C+ discharge can give, I will recomend buying HPS packs, then stripping them for cells! (tho if they want 10C, why not go for 30C and A123's?) Otherwise, headway cells will be fitted to the next few bikes I sell I suspect

Anyway, I want to make it clear that Lifebatt have taken my money for cells twice, and have delivered as promised, and the cells are doing exactly what they promised. Buy with a clear conscience from them! Thanks to Ian/Don for the service so far..

Steve

 

[Battboy]

I've tried them alright Don, and they are working out quite well. I have one cell that is not as strong as the others, slightly higher impedance and needs balancing more than the others (typically about about 3% of pack total AH each week), but 1 cell out of a pack this size with such a small problem is pretty good going.
Send me another 10AH72v for free and I will take off the A123's and have "Lifebatt Powered" written in large letters on the bike :lol: (after all, it apears to be the fastest electric motorcycle in the UK at the moment, and is going to get pimped at all the EV shows/rally's/races around here)

I have tried many cells to date, and headway are next, had I not tried them all I wouldn't have said anything!

My only gripes about Lifebatt are cell price (it would be nice if they were cheap enough to offer competitive motorcycle conversions, but given time perhaps...)
And secondly, availability of bare cells. The HPS packs are far to big and cumbersome to fit a decent ranged pack onto a motorcycle, so bare cells are the only way I will consider buying for my conversions, and promises of supply have been on and off...typically, I have been offered a "one off deal", but been told that in future there will be no single cell sales, then a month later offered another deal. If (when) I finally start larger production runs of electric motorcycles, I need to know that I can get them, and at what price. For these reasons, as well as cost, it looks like Lifebatts are out of the game for me.
If a customer really wants the extra performance that 10C+ discharge can give, I will recomend buying HPS packs, then stripping them for cells! (tho if they want 10C, why not go for 30C and A123's?) Otherwise, headway cells will be fitted to the next few bikes I sell I suspect

Anyway, I want to make it clear that Lifebatt have taken my money for cells twice, and have delivered as promised, and the cells are doing exactly what they promised. Buy with a clear conscience from them! Thanks to Ian/Don for the service so far..

Steve

Hi Steve,

We have had this debate now between us all for quite sometime now. I saw some videos Ian sent me and now I realize exactly who you are Those were some very impressive videos, and what a bike! My personal view is this: I have no problem selling individual Cells to a qualified builder such as yourself, and I will make them available to a limited group such as you represent on a continual basis. Ian has a cautious outlook as far a Warranty goes because he is worried that in the hands of a novice, the chance of ruining good cells can be high. I suggest you talk to Ian and tell him we have talked about this and then take it "off-list" and the three of us will work out an arrangement that you will appreciate, OK ?

As for the 10Ah/72V Pack please have Ian give you a replacement and tell him it's on ME ! There is no reason to not replace this for you at no charge. I am sure he will take care of that for you. I will also copy him on this post. I look forward to seeing that LiFeBATT logo on your motorcycle, and if you need high-res artwork, Ian has it or can get it from me!

Cheers!

Don Harmon

 

[Jozzer]

Woohoo, the Lifebatt:Jozzbike it is then!
Wonderful to have my first bit of sponsorship, and very encouraging in a particularly bad week, thank you
I've not been at all worried about warranty on my lifebatts, I have absolute faith in them giving me at least my monies worth, and I suspect quite alot more.
It may help persuade cutomers that they are worth any extra cost though, no other manufacturer will offer that as yet as far as I know, and certainly not for less money.
Perhaps when our BMS is out of "beta" I can send one with details of how packs would be constructed, and Lifebatt can evaluate whether or not to offer a full warranty for our packs...untill then, the months warranty seems fair. After all, I wouldnt trust most people with unprotected/unbalanced pack for more than a week!