BE-Bike - The project starts NOW - Turnigy 130KV Brushless

[Kurt]

There you go.. AJ even uses the same controller. So like I said if you get your set-up spot on and with the help of gadgets like the RC - CA. They can be powerful and reliable motors with both RC and E bike controllers. Both AJ and myself live in some very hilly areas that get hot in summer so really test the motors.

Kurt

 

[Kurt]

Your experience with CA80 is very interesting. Do you use any kind of active cooling on the motor? Also, what is no-load current at max RPM? And what's the PWM frequency?

Not sure who this question was directed at but..

I'm not running the CA80 but the 80 - 100. Its no load at max RPM on 12s is around 4.8A. I have no cooling although the motor is in a open space and gets a good air flow. I am not sure what the PWM feq is. Its a stock 12 fet infineon controller.

 

[gwhy!1]

. Glue some hall sensors in that Turnigy motor and get your self a 18 fet ebike controller for 1/2 the price or the rc controller and just enjoy the bike.

Kurt

Yes, I second that , But still gear it for 15(+):1 and you will have a reliable, predictable bike.

 

[Hillhater]

For what speed should I gear it? Hillhater says I need another reduction while Matt says my gearing is too tall??? I'm confused?

We are saying the same thing.
.. Too tall = not enough reduction == higher current loading during acceleration.

why are you not using the derailleur gears ?

 

[nyc863]

I do not mean to shoot your comment down, considering you are a first time poster here, but that is NOT why Castle has changed their controllers.

See: http://www.castlecreations.com/support/service_advisory/sa1103-icehv-mambaxl-hydraicehv.html

The performance of a component used in the Castle Phoenix Ice HV 60, Ice HV 80, Ice HV 120, Ice HV 160, Ice HV 160 Lite, Mamba XL and Hydra Ice HV 200 controllers has changed from the original specifications for that part. This tolerance change may lead to failure of the affected controllers.

If you insist on using these controllers, please be advised that the risks of continued usage begin with severe burns to you and/or others, as well as property damage to your RC vehicle or surroundings.

Also, you are incorrect about using Kontronic controllers. I tried a Power Jazz (most expensive controller available at the time). It blew without even turning once. As soon as I turned my throttle, it exploded. Merely going to a Castle controller cured my problem.

Well, you'd be fighting upstream versus about the entire heli hobby community on that.

Castle Creations is known as Castle Cremations. Everyone, without exception, knows that Kontronik is a far better controller, with almost no reports of conflagrations. Maybe you had an issue with one example, however the overall weight of evidence is so far on the side of Kontronik that it isn't even discussed anymore.

 

[AussieJester]

I do not mean to shoot your comment down, considering you are a first time poster here, but that is NOT why Castle has changed their controllers.

See: http://www.castlecreations.com/support/service_advisory/sa1103-icehv-mambaxl-hydraicehv.html

The HV160 in question is not one that has been affected, its identical to what i use as far as i can see by the sticker on the front of it....

FYI: Recumpence has been building custom drives for RC setups for more than 4 years now, Matt has tested a multitude of setups, the CC controllers are the only RC controllers that have proven to work on direct drive RC e-bike setups...period. Just so your aware also, Matt came from RC heli background and was well known for full custom built helis and parts, he's not a new to any of the components being used on e-bikes or RC helis. If he says something don't work, i believe him.

KiM.

EDiT:

... These turnigys are not suitable for this kind of use. Actually, they are not suitable for any use without special (currently non-existent, AFAIK) controller. I'd recommend you not to waste your time and money, ditch this motor and look for different one (non-RC like). Or I'll say "I told you so"....

How about we tell you "I told you so" ? News just from the track is, ES member Paul D just WoN the Ulitmate class i.e over 11hp class at the SoCal Grange Race today in Cali... Guess
which motor he was using Circuit? yes, a Turnigy 80-100 130Kv

So.. "We told YOU so" circuit

 

[nyc863]

Did you mis read the advisory? maybe I did, but I don't think so:

"The only controllers that are properly modified and are approved for operation will be labeled clearly as Ice 2 HV (Amp Rating), Mamba XL 2 and Hydra Ice 2 HV (see image to the right for examples)."

The stickers depicted in the advisory are the only ones that are safe, not the only ones that are afflicted.

His sticker is NOT one of the ones in the advisory, but WAS an ICE HV 160 named in the title, ispo facto, was a hand grenade.

Anyway perhaps Castle will sort it out.
They should.

Shame they took so long, there have been a lot of fires.

 

[AussieJester]

Did you mis read the advisory? maybe I did, but I don't think so:

"The only controllers that are properly modified and are approved for operation will be labeled clearly as Ice 2 HV (Amp Rating), Mamba XL 2 and Hydra Ice 2 HV (see image to the right for examples)."

The stickers depicted in the advisory are the only ones that are safe, not the only ones that are afflicted.

His sticker is NOT one of the ones in the advisory, ispo facto, was a hand grenade.

Anyway perhaps Castle will sort it out.
They should.

Shame they took so long, there have been a lot of fires.

I have an identical controller, same sticker as the OP has, it has ~ 1000km's of use on it with my new bike and around the same on previous bike... why hasn't it burst into flames? Either way CC controllers have been the only rc ESC that survive on rc direct drive setups nyc863, look through the worklogs for rc setups from ~2years you will see the dramas some have gone through trying other brand rc ESCs most common issue aside from plasma and flames was loss of sync, to this day i have not once had a sync issue with ANY of my bikes using the CC HV160 ESC .

KiM

 

[nyc863]

Ok so now you're arguing with Castle themselves

Fair enough. All I did was to point out most likely reason the OP had his esc go pop.

He isn't the first by any means it has been plaguing people buying these ESCs for RC since they were released. Look at the previous advisory as well: here Castle kind of says ok guys we may have a problem but they are in damage control mode. More evidence piles up and now they are afraid of a lawsuit.

Yeah so maybe not every ESC is going to go bang even if they all have the same flaw. It might be triggered by heat, by the length of wires to the motor, by the motor type, by surge amps, by battery type. Or just chance.
Who the hell knows Castle isn't going to reveal that.
On a bike I wouldn't care as much as if it were in a heli. Just bring a water bottle with you

However they are very clearly saying that owners need to get them sent in for updating.

 

[AussieJester]

Not arguing with anyone, simply pointing out i have the same controller
as OP is using and the stickers aren't listed, same controller many here are using successfully. I am Trying to tell you though that the memebrs here into using rc setup have tried other rc controllers, you don't seem to be hearing this, perhaps build an e-bike and try the rc controllers yoiur suggesting and find out for yourself how well they don't work

I Would also prefer my rc heli going up in smoke than my bike too aside it would look far more spectacular, i wouldnt be hurt and it cost waaaay
less, off the shelf parts are avaialbel for re-build too

KiM

 

[circuit]

... These turnigys are not suitable for this kind of use. Actually, they are not suitable for any use without special (currently non-existent, AFAIK) controller. I'd recommend you not to waste your time and money, ditch this motor and look for different one (non-RC like). Or I'll say "I told you so"....

How about we tell you "I told you so" ? News just from the track is, ES member Paul D just WoN the Ulitmate class i.e over 11hp class at the SoCal Grange Race today in Cali... Guess
which motor he was using Circuit? yes, a Turnigy 80-100 130Kv

So.. "We told YOU so" circuit

All these success stories are flying all over the internet. Mine is one of them - I have "successfully" converted Peugeot JetForce to electric, with same turnigy motor. And, of cause, I announced it all over the web: how cool it is, etc. And I won a competition as well. Here's the presentation video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtr4dd-nNwI
Actually, the motor runs "fine", but not very well. Due to low inductance, it gives a very hard time to controller, especially at higher voltages (I used 66V). Usually this leads to high power consumption with no load and, often, to flames in the controller.
Simply get some SPICE software and simulate a 16kHz PWM fed to 10µH inductor. Watch current ripple. You can't see it at battery terminal, but it's there. And it will kill the FETs.
For example, turnigy's biggest motor - CA120. How long is it available for purchase? Something around one year nor, I think. How many successful builds do you know? Real ones, not those sad video on youtube named "it spins!!!". CA120 has even lower inductance (5µH). Have one myself. And there is no suitable controller for it.

Back to success stories. No matter what they say in public, they have already burned a number of controller/motors and their current turnigy setups will burn, sooner or later. No one likes to acknowledge their failure in public. One moment they are happy that everything runs well, and, later on, newsflow simply stops.

 

[AussieJester]

I guess you haven't been here long enough to know that people here do document not only their successes but also their failures this is how we know what components are working and what aren't ... How far and for how long must something work for you to deem it a success out of curiosity?

KiM

 

[Kurt]

... These turnigys are not suitable for this kind of use. Actually, they are not suitable for any use without special (currently non-existent, AFAIK) controller. I'd recommend you not to waste your time and money, ditch this motor and look for different one (non-RC like). Or I'll say "I told you so"....

How about we tell you "I told you so" ? News just from the track is, ES member Paul D just WoN the Ulitmate class i.e over 11hp class at the SoCal Grange Race today in Cali... Guess
which motor he was using Circuit? yes, a Turnigy 80-100 130Kv

So.. "We told YOU so" circuit

All these success stories are flying all over the internet. Mine is one of them - I have "successfully" converted Peugeot JetForce to electric, with same turnigy motor. And, of cause, I announced it all over the web: how cool it is, etc. And I won a competition as well. Here's the presentation video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtr4dd-nNwI
Actually, the motor runs "fine", but not very well. Due to low inductance, it gives a very hard time to controller, especially at higher voltages (I used 66V). Usually this leads to high power consumption with no load and, often, to flames in the controller.
Simply get some SPICE software and simulate a 16kHz PWM fed to 10µH inductor. Watch current ripple. You can't see it at battery terminal, but it's there. And it will kill the FETs.

Back to success stories. No matter what they say in public, they have already burned a number of controller/motors and their current turnigy setups will burn, sooner or later. No one likes to acknowledge their failure in public. One moment they are happy that everything runs well, and, later on, newsflow simply stops.

How long dose one have to ride with a 80- 100 at 66v before we can call it a success. I haven't burned up any motors or controllers. I only ever purchased one 9c infinion ebike controller and one turnigy 80-100 they are both the original parts on the bike today. I am not to proud to announce if I did break something. In fact if I did burn or blow up something. I would be the first to post about it so others can learn from my experience.

My power consumption at 66v no load is just under 5A . You sound like your switched on and most likely know a lot more about electronics than I do. I am just saying it how it is this is my experience. Lets just see how long it lasts I usually put over 100km a week on the bike so it should have around 1800km by the end of the year.

But hey if you don't like the motors its fine. I am happy with mine for the price.


edit: What kind of controllers were you damaging at 66v RC sensorless controllers or e bike sensored controllers ?

Kurt

 

[circuit]

I am really happy it works for you. It did work for me either, nothing blew up. But power consumption was just terrible and I, being electronics engineer, can't live knowing there is something wrong.
Aside the risk of blowing something up and possible injury (imagine going 50mph, FETs blow up, motor stalls, you have no freewheel..), power consumption is way higher than it should be. It's very hard to say how much power the motor should consume at max RPM and no load, so I'll simply give you an example:
The Dremel tool. It's rated for ~120W, I think. And max RPM is 33'000. So it would be logic to say that, at full speed, it has at least 50% of useable power left. So, at 33'000 RPM it consumes no more than 60W. Yes, it's rotor is smaller (lower air friction), but it drives a fan. Compared to to, turnigy 80-100, running at 10kRPM, should not draw more than, say, 50W. And how much it draws to you? 300W? All that excess power goes to heat in the motor and high current ripple on FETs, that can blow up at first small "opportunity".

edit: What kind of controllers were you damaging at 66v RC sensorless controllers or e bike sensored controllers ?

Nothing blew up in my scooter conversion (infineon 18fet), but I managed to kill a few sitting on my bench... 6fet lyen, 6fet analog crystalyte... With turnigy CA120. Tests were done with no load, most often low on throttle...

 

[Kurt]

Yes I do agree with you that the turnigy out runner style motors are not that efficient under no load.I was surprised that I had to wast 300w just to spin the motor. I put a small portion of this down to the the large skirt bearing. In practice I still achieve very good avarage power consumption over a 50km ride. In fact my whr - km is better than any hub motor I have owned or read about running similar voltage and controller amps.

I have free wheeling drive sprocket so if my controller burns a fet it will not lock up the wheel. I would agree they are tougher on controllers than many other motors.But as long as the controller continues to function over a period of time I don't see the problem.

burning a 6fet lyen, 6fet analog crystalyte using a larger turnigy CA120 is hardly a fair comparison to the 12- 18 fet controllers with a smaller 80 - 100.

I do value your technical knowledge and experience with the turnigy motors and ebike controllers. I am interested to learn the safe limits of the motors and controllers.

Kurt

 

[recumpence]

On the subject of Castle controllers, Nic Case (land speed world record holder) run s HV160s exclusively because they are all that will survive. We had a long conversation about this last week.

I do not mean to be argumentative, but they are the best RC controllers for bike use. Others work OK too, but we have found the HV160 works best. It sounds like the OP is seeing some strange anomaly.

Matt

 

[Byte]

I still want a topspeed of 30mph. So I will use the sprockets on the rear wheel to shift through them. What about 20mph topspeed in 1st gear and 30mph in 2nd gear? Is that gearing tall enough to NOT blow the controller? I'm still a bit surprised that the controller blew, I was driving so carefully...

I'm also searching for some low esr caps. Found these on eBay: http://www.ebay.de/itm/680uF-50V-El...upplies_ET&hash=item2a12dab7b2#ht_1568wt_1110 and http://www.ebay.de/itm/4pcs-Nippon-...979?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0e268d3b.
Which one should I buy? And how many of them will I need?

 

[fizzit]

You should still check if yours blew up because of the warranted issue, and not because of how you were driving it. nyc863 has got a point.

 

[recumpence]

Actually, 30mph is not too much speed to expect from a HV160. My yellow trike is geared for 40mph and I am hard on that thing.

What I do is setup a bike and do a couple runs. Then I download the data and look at the current ripple. If the ripple is above 5volts, I look to reduce it.

It is also possible you had a setting wrong in the programming. That can add to this, though it would not normaly cause it.

Matt

 

[nieles]

I still want a topspeed of 30mph. So I will use the sprockets on the rear wheel to shift through them. What about 20mph topspeed in 1st gear and 30mph in 2nd gear? Is that gearing tall enough to NOT blow the controller? I'm still a bit surprised that the controller blew, I was driving so carefully...

I'm also searching for some low esr caps. Found these on eBay: http://www.ebay.de/itm/680uF-50V-El...upplies_ET&hash=item2a12dab7b2#ht_1568wt_1110 and http://www.ebay.de/itm/4pcs-Nippon-...979?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0e268d3b.
Which one should I buy? And how many of them will I need?

the best capacitors i found are the Nippon KZE series.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Which one should I buy? And how many of them will I need?

Byte, I'm sure its possible to find better choices than these links, but these have been used by me and others in the past. If you are using a 44V LiPo pack, it may be near 50V when full, so...use the 63V caps that AJ has used with great success. For ANY pack voltage below 12S, The compact 50V caps that Matt and many others have used are recommended. DocBass found some small low-ESR 160V caps he likes for his 100V controller (or any voltage below 150V), easy to find if you want those.

When choosing between two low-ESR capacitor choices, the resistance (in milli-Ohms, the most important spec) should be as low as possible, and the ripple amps number should be as big as possible. Physical size (the uF number) does not matter (bigger is not better). These selections are about $2 each, four of them are much better than two of them, but one cap is a lot better than none. With no added caps on an E-bike, its only a matter of time before the ESC will fry (you might be careful and accelerate gently, then you loan it to a friend for "just a minute"...)

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=22194&start=45#p382837
16 mOhm, 3.32A, 50V, http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P12393-ND
17 mOhm, 3.50A, 63V, http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=565-1731-ND

Thanks to Jeremy Harris, Bigmoose, LFP, and many others....

 

[Byte]

You should still check if yours blew up because of the warranted issue, and not because of how you were driving it. nyc863 has got a point.

Hmm.. I'll do a few test runs with the current gear ratio and look at the data logging as Matt says.

Actually, 30mph is not too much speed to expect from a HV160. My yellow trike is geared for 40mph and I am hard on that thing.

What I do is setup a bike and do a couple runs. Then I download the data and look at the current ripple. If the ripple is above 5volts, I look to reduce it.

It is also possible you had a setting wrong in the programming. That can add to this, though it would not normaly cause it.

Matt

I will definitely do that too when I got my new controller. Thanks for your advice Matt!

Which one should I buy? And how many of them will I need?

Byte, I'm sure its possible to find better choices than these links, but these have been used by me and others in the past. If you are using a 44V LiPo pack, it may be near 50V when full, so...use the 63V caps that AJ has used with great success. For ANY pack voltage below 12S, The compact 50V caps that Matt and many others have used are recommended. DocBass found some small low-ESR 160V caps he likes for his 100V controller (or any voltage below 150V), easy to find if you want those.

When choosing between two low-ESR capacitor choices, the resistance (in milli-Ohms, the most important spec) should be as low as possible, and the ripple amps number should be as big as possible. Physical size (the uF number) does not matter (bigger is not better). These selections are about $2 each, four of them are much better than two of them, but one cap is a lot better than none. With no added caps on an E-bike, its only a matter of time before the ESC will fry (you might be careful and accelerate gently, then you loan it to a friend for "just a minute"...)

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=22194&start=45#p382837
16 mOhm, 3.32A, 50V, http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P12393-ND
17 mOhm, 3.50A, 63V, http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=565-1731-ND

Thanks to Jeremy Harris, Bigmoose, LFP, and many others....

Thank you for this very useful post Spinningmagnets As I'm using a 10S2P LiPo pack I will buy - as you recommended - those more compact caps from your first link. Thank you!



I really love this forum and the nice members over here! You guys are great! I truly appreciate all of your help. Thank you!

 

[gwhy!1]

Hmm.. I'll do a few test runs with the current gear ratio and look at the data logging as Matt says.

Actually, 30mph is not too much speed to expect from a HV160. My yellow trike is geared for 40mph and I am hard on that thing.

What I do is setup a bike and do a couple runs. Then I download the data and look at the current ripple. If the ripple is above 5volts, I look to reduce it.

It is also possible you had a setting wrong in the programming. That can add to this, though it would not normaly cause it.

Matt

I will definitely do that too when I got my new controller. Thanks for your advice Matt!

Hi Byte,
Please remember Matt do not use these motors , The astro's do appear to be alot more forgiving with controllers.

 

[fizzit]

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasonic/EEU-FM1H681L/?qs=3buz8ytw9h213HsDKDKoOw%3d%3d

I'm using 5 of these. They're the same kind that's in the Castle ESC, just bigger. I've found that they work great, although I'm just saying that cuz my ESC has survived so far :lol:

16 mOhms, 3.16A [moderator edit to add capacitor value]

 

[recumpence]

Hmm.. I'll do a few test runs with the current gear ratio and look at the data logging as Matt says.

Actually, 30mph is not too much speed to expect from a HV160. My yellow trike is geared for 40mph and I am hard on that thing.

What I do is setup a bike and do a couple runs. Then I download the data and look at the current ripple. If the ripple is above 5volts, I look to reduce it.

It is also possible you had a setting wrong in the programming. That can add to this, though it would not normaly cause it.

Matt

I will definitely do that too when I got my new controller. Thanks for your advice Matt!

That may be true. I am not sure. I can tell you that you need to have the controller set for outrunner mode or it is hard on the controller.

Matt

Hi Byte,
Please remember Matt do not use these motors , The astro's do appear to be alot more forgiving with controllers.