Best value bike for hill climbing about 10miles straight.

[neoender]

I've searched this forum and all over the internet and it's hard to figure out what the best value in an electric bike for my needs are and I was hoping to hear from people who actually own and use the various bikes/kits.

I'll be needing a bike to commute in the desert in southern california. The commute is 20 miles roundtrip. One way is almost all down hill and the way back is almost all uphill with a vertical climb of 1000 feet (about 300 meters) over 10 miles. the weather is generally dry and hot.

It seems like the optibike is the best bike for this but it is very pricey. If i can get similar performance for less, I'd be happy.

Things that are important to me are price, durability, and weight.

The things I have considered are the E+, the izip express, geared hubmotor conversion like the Ezee, the cyclone bottom bracket conversion. Does anyone have any thoughts? Should I just bite the bullet and get the optibike? is there some option I have not considered?

Thanks

 

[neoender]

oh, I weigh 160lbs and I'm willing to pedal a fair bit up the hill but i'd like a bike that would make it so I dont have to pedal that hard to make it up the hills.

 

[Tiberius]

Hi,

If that's a steady climb then its not a steep gradient, so almost any ebike will work out. The trick is to get it so that the motor is working efficiently at the speed and cadence that you like to pedal. That's actually quite easy if you have gears.

If its not a steady gradient, then you have to look at the maximum gradient you are facing, make sure the bike can handle that without your assistance.

Nick

 

[dogman dan]

I've been commuting in the desert, my uphill portion of the ride home is about 12 miles, and I climb about 800 feet, but add about 500 to that since I have some rolling hills along the route. I melted one motor in less than 400 miles when the temps were over 100 F. This was a WE brushed motor, and being less efficient, it makes more heat and less motion. So you want to look at something that is efficient, and or, something that cools itself better than a brushed hubmotor. Otherwise you may be happy till it gets hot, and then smoke your motor on that long uphill ride that will be done when its hottest.

In my case the route climbs awhile, then goes up and down for 6 miles, and then when my motor is good and hot, I get to climb a mile of 10% hill that just cooks the motor. My solution to the problem so far has been to shorten the ride with a bike rack on the car when it gets over 100 degrees. It will depend on how hot it is where you are, and how hard the route really is. But once you ride more than 1/2 hour in the desert heat, things can really heat up. Some have drilled vent holes in motor covers, and I may do that next summer with some spare covers I have now that I cooked a motor.

Anyway, if I were you, I'd look at eithier very efficient motors, so as to keep the heat to a minimum, or motors that have better ability to cool themselves.
Gearmotors are good for getting up hills efficiently. Slowing down helps too, but on a really long steep hill like mine that can result in getting off to walk. A gearmotor will be much more able to slow down and still keep moving on the climb.

 

[Toshi]

"optibike" and "best value" do not belong in the same sentence.

i'd go for a Crystalyte 408 or 409 (or if the hill is really steep a 4011 even!) driven by 48V of LiFePO4. http://ebikes.ca is my vendor of choice and should be yours, too. fire them an email or give them a call and Justin and crew can refine my suggestions.

for an example of what a Crystalyte/lithium bike might look like take a look at my bike, linked from my signature. i had less of an emphasis on sheer hill-climbing ability so went with a 407 on a 26" rim.

 

[neoender]

so will the crystalyte survive daily climbs of 10 miles of constant uphill at full load?

 

[pwbset]

so will the crystalyte survive daily climbs of 10 miles of constant uphill at full load?

All summer I climbed 1,600ft in about 3-4mi with a rear 4011 and it wasn't a problem. It got hot and I had to pedal quite a bit to maintain the power zone so it didn't burn up, but I did have it volted up around 76v under very heavy loads around 2.2kw sustained. I averaged around 16mph during the commute. 1,000ft over 10mi really should be okay for any motor and decent lithium battery pack if the climb is gradual. I bet a 408 @ 48v would surprise you. Post more when you get going!

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

so will the crystalyte survive daily climbs of 10 miles of constant uphill at full load?

All summer I climbed 1,600ft in about 3-4mi with a rear 4011 and it wasn't a problem. It got hot and I had to pedal quite a bit to maintain the power zone so it didn't burn up, but I did have it volted up around 76v under very heavy loads around 2.2kw sustained. I averaged around 16mph during the commute. 1,000ft over 10mi really should be okay for any motor and decent lithium battery pack if the climb is gradual. I bet a 408 @ 48v would surprise you. Post more when you get going!

A 1,600 foot climb in Montana in the summer is a lot different than a desert in So. Cal.

 

[Jerome Daoust]

Since the main obstacle for you is the hill climb, the best ingredient is stored energy (and power output to some extent for maintaining speed during the climb).

Optibike 800 Li: 36V x 20 Ah ==> 720 Wh. 800 W motor for maintaining speed during climb. Will cost you about 10,000 $US.
IZIP Express: 36 V x 18 Ah ==> 648 Wh. 750 W motor. Cost of 2800 $US +tax in Southern Cal.
E + Mountain: 36 V x 10 Ah ==> 360 Wh. 1000 W motor. Cost of 4100 $US+ tax.
BMC motor kit + bike: 51 V x 20 Ah ==> 1020 Wh. 600 W motor. Cost of about 4500 $US (depends on bike chosen).

Each have their merits. If there is no urgency on your part, the IZIP Express will be worth trying (before buying) at the end of March: 2009 IZIP Express. It could be a great value for the price. And this summer we can expect an auxiliary battery pack for the E+ which can change the game: E+ with auxiliary battery in 2009. If you got to have something today, you can think Optibike, but it will take 1-2 months to build for you. A kit may provide you with the most instantaneous gratification with a local shop putting it together quickly for you, but don't expect a high resale value in a year from now. Ah, compromises... :?

More on comparisons.

And for that long downhill ride, you don't need good brakes, just get a drogue chute. :wink:

 

[pwbset]

A 1,600 foot climb in Montana in the summer is a lot different than a desert in So. Cal.

Don't let the northern latitude fool you. :wink: I did quite a few commutes in 90-95f temps. The whole key was keeping the motor in the "power" zone of most efficiency I think so the extra watts weren't dumped as heat. Wide open throttle for me pedaling hard was about 16-18mph and everything was peachy with just a mildly crispy motor at the top. If I deviated from that zone though (all calculated from the ebike.ca simulator, which is pretty spot on, and riding experience) the motor would overheat fast and you could feel the power drop off. Early in my commutes I would have to stop and let the motor cool for awhile before continuing, but after a few weeks of trial and error I could floor it the whole way, maintain a good speed and the motor would only reach a certain max-temp that was still below the mag/winding-melt temps. Kinetic energy was key... those times when I had to "pause" on the ride up (usually for elk crossing) I never seemed to be able to get back to the zone of efficiency again from a dead stop without frying the motor... or else I'd just gear way down and go very slow like 8-10mph and the lower power kept the motor temps cool. I preferred the 16-18mph though. 8)

I'd actually be surprised if my hall sensors still worked to be honest. Pedal first controller so I just don't know, but they would fry first for sure. There were more than several "egg frying motor" commutes, but the second I got to the office I stuck a fan on the motor and that always seemed to worked... though my office always smelled of burnt shellac. Anyway.. motor still pulls as strong as the day I got it so... so far, so good.

 

[paultrafalgar]

Two motors might be the answer to overheating as on Kurt's ebike here:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4936&p=89268&hilit=+two+motors+#p89268

 

[dogman dan]

Really big difference between 95F and 110! I have no problems even with my brushed motor heat makers at 95. The other problem is the humidity. Once the humidity gets around 10% or less, air simply doesn't cool anymore, ask any old VW bug driver. The air can't cool worth a dang unless there are water molecules present. I do agree that keeping the speed up to at least 10 mph, or better, 15 mph is crucial. That is why the grade, length of climb, and how hot the motor is at the bottom of the climb all make so much difference. If the grade doesn't slow the thing down too much, he can back off the throttle a tad and keep the speed, reducing the heat produced a bunch.

I'll be torture testing a brushless motor this summer but till then I can't say if a 408 would be ok. I suspect it would, unless the route is as bad as mine, and the timing of the ride. One nice thing about the currie motors is they have some cooling fins on the motor. Do they have vents too? I don't know. At any rate, replacing one of those motors is cheaper than a hub motor isn't it? In the crystalite stuff, a 5300 series motor could take more heat they say. Costs more to power them with lithium though, since the ping 20 ah tends to get pushed pretty hard by a big clyte. For my ride, I'm real interested in the new BMC 600 watt, but since I could afford it easier, I'm going to try the brushless 600 watt aotema motor first. If it melts, I'll be saving for a BMC, and by then we'll have some reviews on it.

One thing you haven't mentioned Neoender, is budget, but since you mention optibike, I'll take it that you could afford a few thou? Two Pingbattery 48v 15 ah batteries connected paralell would power a 5304 crystalite nicely. That setup would zoom up the hills, and likely not overheat unless you rode it further than 10 miles. Around two thou should do it, depending on the cost of the bike itself.

 

[Will]

Late w/ reply, but here's my free opinion. I ride a C-408 up 800' 3 miles in Alabama, 90 degree high humidity; 13-14mph with modest pedaling. I also ride it in Bakersfield CA 105 lo humidity up a 250' hill over 1 mile lite pedaling @15-16mph. By the way, throttle is 80-90%. The 10.5 amp hr lith battery will take me 19 miles with over a 1,000' climb up the 800' and then rolling hill terrain. It'll make 33+ miles if dropping elevation. I cruise 20mph with lite pedalling. Me thinks the C-408 would freewheel (allow you to pedal) better than a C-5300. The BMS 600 looks potent but its' track record is still young. Don't buy too lite of a system as the desert heat is a real concern

 

[dogman dan]

On the subject of heat, I am amazed how much cooler the new aotema brushless is running than the aotema brushed motor I had been using. But even moderate heating is still gonna be a problem if you keep it going long enough. I think the 53xx clytes can still soak up heat the best of all the non geared motors out there.

 

[morph999]

why not go with the Phoenix Brute motor.

They have 3 types of Phoenix. Racer, Cruiser, and Brute. The Brute is made for climbing hills. Racer is made for speed. You can find the Brute and electricrider.com . That's the only place that I've seen it. You might want to find out what model number it is...it's either the 5305 or 5304 probably....

 

[dogman dan]

I think that is a good idea, but it does flunk the weight and the price test. We all start out with this fantasy, It will weigh 45 pounds, cost $600 dollars, and go 30 miles on a charge. Later on, three ebikes later we are satisfied, it cost $2500, wieghs over 100 pounds, but it does go like hell for 30 miles.

 

[neoender]

how about this?

anyone have any experiences?

http://www.rmartinbikes.com/R10_electric_bicycle.html

seems like an inexpensive optibike.

 

[Russell]

how about this?

anyone have any experiences?

http://www.rmartinbikes.com/R10_electric_bicycle.html

seems like an inexpensive optibike.

Pretty interesting bike. The way they have the motor mounted seems to cure one problem I have with non-hub motors like the Cyclone and that is their wide "Q-factor" (distance between pedals) which hinders smooth pedaling especially at a higher cadence.

-R

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

how about this?

anyone have any experiences?

http://www.rmartinbikes.com/R10_electric_bicycle.html

seems like an inexpensive optibike.

Even through the gears 200 Watts is a little underpowered.

Powerful 200 watt crank motor
(500 watt equivalent)

$1,200 for a Bike, motor and Lithium Batteries the quality of the bike can't be that good.

I'd really like to know how the "patented crank motor" connects to the crank and if the drive components are available separately.

 

[neoender]

yeah, that's why i was wondering if anyone had seen this bike in person. maybe 200W is enough power to help up a hill with some pedaling effort..

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

yeah, that's why i was wondering if anyone had seen this bike in person. maybe 200W is enough power to help up a hill with some pedaling effort..

I have ridden a very nice Ebike (Pi) with 500w through the gears and the gears make a big difference. So I think 200W is probably enough for what you described if its configured properly.
http://pimobility.com/index.html

handling steep, 25% grade, SF-class hills

 

[Drunkskunk]

how about this?

anyone have any experiences?

http://www.rmartinbikes.com/R10_electric_bicycle.html

seems like an inexpensive optibike.

!!Motor: 200W brushless !!

That for all the world looks like a wheelchair motor. Which would be patented, just not by them.

I have a 408 on my bike. it will do a 10% grade in Texas heat at 48V reliably. Its not the best choice, but it's a good place to start, and would be better than any 200 watt motor. its nearly dead silent, too.

Better options would be things like the Nine continents motors, being high efficent and good torque yet silent. Or a BMC geared hub motor, or an eZee Hub motor kit. the eZee and BMC being the lightest options.

The range of Crystalytes from the 408 to the (hard to find)4013 would be fine, as would the bigger 5303 to 5305 motors, with far more power, just needing bigger batteries and weighing more.

 

[neoender]

how about this?

anyone have any experiences?

http://www.rmartinbikes.com/R10_electric_bicycle.html

seems like an inexpensive optibike.

!!Motor: 200W brushless !!

That for all the world looks like a wheelchair motor. Which would be patented, just not by them.

I have a 408 on my bike. it will do a 10% grade in Texas heat at 48V reliably. Its not the best choice, but it's a good place to start, and would be better than any 200 watt motor. its nearly dead silent, too.

Better options would be things like the Nine continents motors, being high efficent and good torque yet silent. Or a BMC geared hub motor, or an eZee Hub motor kit. the eZee and BMC being the lightest options.

The range of Crystalytes from the 408 to the (hard to find)4013 would be fine, as would the bigger 5303 to 5305 motors, with far more power, just needing bigger batteries and weighing more.

Well Im looking mostly for a bike that functions mostly as a bike but can assist for the hills. There's no problem with making it up a 10% grade with a regular bike without any motor at all. But my average speed would probably be around 10mph. I just want something that will give me enough of a boost to go up the grade at 15mph with the same amount of pedaling effort from me. I'd rather not have a heavy bike that is essentially an electric motorcycle that could make it up the hill without any pedalling on my part. I want to pedal hard and but I'd like the motor so I can get to my destination faster. from what i gather, you need alot of power to make hub motor climb hills, whereas the motor attached to the bottom bracket increases hill climbing ability. I dont need a motor for the flats and i definitely dont need it on downhill grades... it'd just be nice to have a little boost on the uphills. this is why I was thinking that the optibike was great but its out of my pricerange. I saw this thing and thought it might be good but then i noticed that its not even available until march so no one will have seen it. I guess I'll wait until april and see if anyone buys it and see how it is. it looks good on paper, will have to see if its worth anything in the real world.

 

[dogman dan]

More and more, what you describe would best be served by a rear wheel bafang gearmotor. Best place to get one, is Holmes Hobbies LLC. The Ezee from ebikes-ca would be just as good. These are about as light as it gets without going into fabrication to use RC motors. Bafangs are a good lightweight gearmotor that will freewheel to give no resistance when coasting. Run with a low amp controller, like a 10 amp, they will still climb a hill but not at 20 mph, and use less battery, allowing that to be lighter. Get one of those, and a controller for it in the 10-20 amp range. Then you can power up with a smaller lifepo4, or lipoly battery that won't weigh much. You are right, on a long ride, just a few more mph will make much better time. Look in the review section for comments from people that have them. Don't worry about the peanut butter gears thing, that is what happens when they are run at faster speeds and higher voltages. 36v won't strip the gears, especially with a low amp controller. When run at low amps, they may be only 200-300 watts, but it still beats pedaling all the way, or having a bike that weighs over 100 pounds.

 

[ElectricEd]

From your route description, I'd recommend the setup that I am riding. I have a total climb of 1200ft over 27Km (16.7M) As long as the gradients are fairly steady and when riding a normal MTB you don't have to go into granny gear, a Crystalyte 408 with a 48V battery will suit well. It can deliver well over 1 horsepower. A 200W motor wouldn't even pull the skin off a rice pudding. On some grades I am using over 500W even while pedalling.
After looking at most of the ebikes commercially available, I wouldn't wast my time. As a rule, they are made with heavy steel frames, underpowered and handle like a slug. They do however, generally have the weather proofing sorted. Not that that is much of an issue in the desert.
As for overheating, in the week prior to the bushfires here in Victoria, we had 3 days over 43 degrees C (109.4F). After the climb back home, the 408 was warm to the touch (probably about 130F) and the controller was pretty close to ambient. I could feel no increase in temperature in the controller at all.
BTW, a Cycle Analyst is mandatory so that you don't cook your battery. Limit the current to 20A and you'll get all the power you need and still be able to blow away the lycra lizards on your climb.
So consider getting a kit, and convert a reasonable quality bike. Depending on what you start with, you should end up with a far better ebike that has more grunt and handles well.