Beta tests sold as products

[cycle9]

Hey ES people:

I popped in here the other day and started reading the BMC 1000W thread, though I didn't get far because something else came up. But I got far enough to confirm what I already thought... that it is a BETA product. Just like many other products that have been pushed out before their time. This hurts consumers, dealers (at least the ones with scruples), and ultimately, the whole e-bike industry. I talk about it a bit in this video:

[youtube]eKfEqZSAN90[/youtube]

My shop is a dealer for BMC. So why would I say something like the statement above? Why am I "biting the hand that feeds"? Because we work our butts off to make sure what we sell is going to work. And when stuff comes back from a customer because it wasn't working, it is a bad. We've had too much stuff come back. The customer (if they're new to e-bikes) comes to think the technology is crap, and we have to deal with fixing whatever it is that went wrong then re-selling the product as refurbished. Just today, we got word from a customer of the second failure of a BMC controller. That is 2 failures for 2 kits we sold to him. I'm sure the customer isn't pleased (though he'll be getting a full refund).

Another dealer had told us about failures his customers had with these controllers, but we had had good initial results with our own beta test. Unfortunately, the design was "upgraded" from the version I tested, to a higher amp limit without an upgrade to the FETs. Apparently this "upgrade" (which should have been beta tested by BMC) was enough to strain the limits of the design... leading to frequent failures. Now they are dropping like flies, so we have to discontinue them (this is not a first). It is just bad news all around.

When BMC came out with the 1000W motor, we didn't touch it. We had a lot of previous problems with the 600W V2-S, (mostly clutch failures from the first batch). After tearing apart and fixing at least 5 of the V2-S motors for people, we stopped selling them until BMC worked the problems out (surprisingly, failures on the V2-T "torque" motors have been much rarer). BMC claim to have a new clutch for the V2-S that is improved, so we've started, very cautiously, selling a few again.

So when the 1000W motor came out, I knew it would go through major teething pains (can you say BETA test?). I'm tired of having our customers be unwitting beta testers for these manufacturers.

I don't want this to be a rant on just BMC. Look at all the problems people have had with Nine Continent motors (e.g. the recent post from Jason at e-bike kit, whom I stay in touch with). Same kinds of problems. We also got a shipment from Nine Continent that had a bunch of little (mostly correctable but time consuming) problems, including the spoke problem that Jason mentioned. We're hand-building all our Nine Continent rear wheels now here in North Carolina because the manufacturer just can't get it right.

And Crystalyte isn't immune. In the past 6 months, we've had 4 out of 5 35A Crystalyte analog controllers come back failed - a few right away, and some after many months of use. We're now replacing those with infineons, because we don't trust the Crystalytes anymore. (The Crystalyte digital controllers don't work so well with the geared motors like the BMC).

We started using infineon controllers recently. They seem to work well, but recently we got a big batch of various size controllers. Guess what? The "20A" controllers limit out at 13A, and the "30A" controllers limit out around 20A. I know why they did this - because I'm sure they've had problems with people burning them when running at the full rated limit. So they programmed them to operate below the limit. That means that a so-called "20A" is not really "20A" but "13A". Rather than send them back (a big expense), we'll now be selling the so-called "30A" controllers as "20A". Maybe that is a good thing - to sell under-rated controllers. It should significantly reduce the probability of failure. But it also makes it look like less of a bargain, asking people to pay more for a lower-rated controller.

I could go on and on. No product we've tried has been immune (and we've tried a lot as a dealer for everything from BionX to BMC to eZee to Crystalyte to Stokemonkey, though the Stokemonkey has been virtually problem-free). The failure rates are way beyond what people expect these days. Cars "just work". E-bikes need to get to that point, soon, or regular folks will just stay away (tinkerers may still keep tinkering, but that is not going to spread e-bikes far and wide like they are in China and some parts of Europe).

I'm doing this business because of my passion for e-bikes and their ability to reduce auto/oil usage (not a dime has been made, though I hope to at least repay the loans, someday). After facing one problem after another after another with these products, I ask myself, is it worth trying to promote technology that is still too rough around the edges for mass adoption? It doesn't have to be this way, if only people at all stages (manufacturers and dealers) would test products thoroughly before pushing them out. We have had to learn that that lesson the hard way. And there are other good folks out there who understand/have learned this. But there are still too many who do not. I hope the community will start putting some serious pressure on for the industry to clean up.

 

[AussieJester]

Your a very well spoken lady, I wish you all the best repaying the loans for the business. lets
hope the manufactures start to give a crap about the quality of their product start testing them
rather than releasing them prematurely to get the $$$...


KiM

 

[ecowheelz]

We definitely feel your pain Morgan!

All we can do as dealers is provide support, honor warranties and keep fixing the problems. But you're right, eventually people's patience gets worn thin -- and they just give up on e-bikes. In the end, it will put all of us out of business if these problems persist...

Luckily, we've been able to maintain most of our damaged relationships due to poor quality and part failures. But a smiling face and willingness to "suck it up" and fix the problems only goes so far. When someone comes back 2-3 times before everything "seems" to be resolved, it leaves a bad taste in their mouth. As soon as another issue comes up (even if it's normal), it becomes that much harder to instill confidence. Word spreads and it snowballs. So far, the snowball effect has been positive for us since we provide great customer support. But if the problems persist, it's eventually going to catch up and hurt us...

Not sure what needs to be done, but TESTING and QC is a BIGGIE! Some of the problems we see just shouldn't occur! We shouldn't pull a bike out of the box, and nothing works! Didn't somebody hit the switch and check it before it went in the package??? A controller shouldn't fail after a month and connections shouldn't be shorting out after a couple rides...

My only suggestion, make sure you voice all your concerns to your suppliers. We've seen lots of positive changes and improvements just from sharing our experiences. It might feel like you're complaining -- but it's helping all of us! Hopefully with some hard work we can all help improve the industry and make e-biking even more reliable!

 

[cycle9]

Your a very well spoken lady, I wish you all the best repaying the loans for the business. lets
hope the manufactures start to give a crap about the quality of their product start testing them
rather than releasing them prematurely to get the $$$...


KiM

Thank you for the nice words.

Just yesterday, we ordered a new GoldenMotor "Magic Pie" for initial testing. We'll be testing it for months before we consider selling them. The marketing hype looks great... but what will the reality be? An integrated controller sounds great, until you have to replace it when it fails. When I asked the GoldenMotor guy about getting replacement parts for it, he said "It won't fail". I responded with a long diatribe about how full of nonsense that was to say "it won't fail". I can guarantee it *will* fail, it is only a matter of how often it fails. If failure is rare, it might be acceptable. But if it is like most new products we've tried, failure won't be rare. We'll see whether that is more money down the drain or not.

 

[AussieJester]

Just yesterday, we ordered a new GoldenMotor "Magic Pie" for initial testing. We'll be testing it for months before we consider selling them. The marketing hype looks great... but what will the reality be? An integrated controller sounds great, until you have to replace it when it fails. When I asked the GoldenMotor guy about getting replacement parts for it, he said "It won't fail". I responded with a long diatribe about how full of nonsense that was to say "it won't fail". I can guarantee it *will* fail, it is only a matter of how often it fails. If failure is rare, it might be acceptable. But if it is like most new products we've tried, failure won't be rare. We'll see whether that is more money down the drain or not.

Doesn't surprise me in the least that was the response yoiu recieved, just need to look at the thread 'GoldenMotor" started here tonight

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=13705

Scroll down to TylerDurdens post, Golden Motor thought he would be clever and delete it his opening posts but it
was saved before he did, how he got a job in marketing is a mystery... Be VERY interested to hear how well the motor performs, another member here Heyna has one he is currently testing also.

best of luck

KiM

 

[cycle9]

Hi ecowheelz,
It is great to see some others out there who value customer service. I agree that it is critical to interact with a smile and just keep trying to fix problems as they arise. That has worked for many of our customers, who ended up being happy despite hiccups along the way. But some just get so angry that all they want is a refund, no matter how helpful we try to be - like the guy now sending us the two BMC kits back. I can understand why he is angry - he installed these kits for some people he was working with, and it makes him look bad that they didn't work, which in turn makes us look bad (and the whole industry).

When you wrote about pulling bikes out of the box that are DOA on arrival - we've had that happen numerous times. Like you said, it is crazy that people send these out without testing (a few might be due to things coming loose in shipping, but most seem due to just laziness).

Our suppliers have had an earful from us about these issues. Some are more responsive than others. The ultimate solution may end up just being dropping the suppliers that aren't responsive.

Keep up the good work spreading the e-bike love!

We definitely feel your pain!

All we can do as dealers is provide support, honor warranties and keep fixing the problems. But you're right, eventually people's patience gets worn thin -- and they just give up on e-bikes. In the end, it will put all of us out of business if these problems persist...

Luckily, we've been able to maintain most of our damaged relationships due to poor quality and part failures. But a smiling face and willingness to "suck it up" and fix the problems only goes so far. When someone comes back 2-3 times before everything "seems" to be resolved, it leaves a bad taste in their mouth. As soon as another issue comes up (even if it's normal), it becomes that much harder to instill confidence. Word spreads and it snowballs. So far, the snowball affect has been positive for us since we provide great customer support and service. But if the issues persist, it's eventually going to catch up and hurt us...

Not sure what needs to be done, but TESTING and QC is a BIGGIE! Some of the problems we see just shouldn't occur! We shouldn't pull a bike out of the box, and nothing works! Didn't somebody hit the switch and check it before it went in the box!

My only suggestion, make sure you voice all your concerns to your suppliers. We've seen lots of positive changes and improvements just from sharing our experiences. Hopefully we can all help improve the industry and make e-biking even more reliable!

 

[cycle9]

Wow, thanks for the heads up. I don't have time these days to read much of the forums, but I'm glad you pointed out this one about GoldenMotors out to me. I will be exercising some significant caution and diligence.

Just yesterday, we ordered a new GoldenMotor "Magic Pie" for initial testing. We'll be testing it for months before we consider selling them. The marketing hype looks great... but what will the reality be? An integrated controller sounds great, until you have to replace it when it fails. When I asked the GoldenMotor guy about getting replacement parts for it, he said "It won't fail". I responded with a long diatribe about how full of nonsense that was to say "it won't fail". I can guarantee it *will* fail, it is only a matter of how often it fails. If failure is rare, it might be acceptable. But if it is like most new products we've tried, failure won't be rare. We'll see whether that is more money down the drain or not.

Doesn't surprise me in the least that was the response yoiu recieved, just need to look at the thread 'GoldenMotor" started here tonight

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=13705

Scroll down to TylerDurdens post, Golden Motor thought he would be clever and delete it his opening posts but it
was saved before he did, how he got a job in marketing is a mystery... Be VERY interested to hear how well the motor performs, another member here Heyna has one he is currently testing also.

best of luck

KiM

 

[ecowheelz]

Hi ecowheelz,
It is great to see some others out there who value customer service. I agree that it is critical to interact with a smile and just keep trying to fix problems as they arise. That has worked for many of our customers, who ended up being happy despite hiccups along the way. But some just get so angry that all they want is a refund, no matter how helpful we try to be...

I agree... great customer service only goes so far. We've had some very unhappy customers due to many of the reasons described. Luckily, we were able to save most of these sales by going out of our way to resolve the problems. But will they be back again with more problems??? With the track record we've had with some products -- it's very likely. STRESSFUL!

Eventually... I know there will be situations where there's nothing we can do no matter how hard we work to keep the customer happy. That's the frusterating part -- doing all this work to promote, build relationships and sell these products. Then when they backfire -- we're left out in the cold!

The truth is, we shouldn't have to work so hard to fix these problems (that are easily avoidable) and mend relationships with our customers. It costs time and money, and in the end, the word will eventually get out and hurt us all!

NOTE TO MANUFACTURERS -- START GETTING YOUR S#@! TOGETHER! QC AND TESTING MUST BE IMPROVED!

 

[deardancer3]

Soooo, I wonder, given all this, How can we do a better job of improving customer reliability expectations and what the Products deliver?

I would guess one topic would be how to test; how can we , the Dealers and gurus, do accelerated testing of ebike products?

Given that almost all of us are doing this for our dedication to the ebike idea, not for making pots of money

Continous tests under tough conditions, maybe? Analyzing every failure we can find? Having decent meters and some indicators on ebike systems? (It used to be that some combination of High current, heat, moisture and vibration would show the first failures. I would guess that this might still be true)

I spent a career working on servicability for minicomputers. Even with reputuable manufacturers, it was always a real problem getting any changes for reliability's sake. We had to figure out the problem, the probability of occurance, the cost per thousand units, the proposed fix, how it would save money and how we did our calculations.
Even when we were obviously correct with good input, product management would sometimes not follow our advise. While we were a part of the same company, Engineering would wait till they came up with a different idea; they just could not be one-upped by field people. The point is, this may not be easy to get fix's incorporated in the design.

I have seen problems with Ezee's pre-built ebikes that cost the dealers 2 hours per bike because of using a substandard washer- cost 25 cents. Giant had a motor mount that failed and a charger that went green well before the battery was fully charged. Bionx NIMH chargers also go green before the pack is at 9o%. EVGlobal's are famous for their ebrake switch failure and one of the worlds stupidest SLA chargers. Cyclone does not water seal the motor where the wires go in. And that Currie/USPD internal controller failures?

Having a support techie that a customer can call, parts in the USA, documentation and a user manual would be a decent start.

We have spent significant bandwidth on ebike performance. Wonder if we should have a dedicated section on reliability, known problems, failures, etc?

d

 

[E-BikeKit.com]

Deleted. Thank you to all at ES.

 

[ecowheelz]

If there's anyone who listens to their dealers / customers... it's Jason of E-BikeKit. There's obviously lots of bugs to work out in the e-bike industry... but I think Jason has the right approach and is making the necessary improvements we'd all like to see take place. Not only does he listen to our feedback -- he asks for it. Then he uses it to take action and create a better, more reliable product.

I think part of the issue we're all trying to correct -- is a different attitude / approach by the Chinese manufacturer's we all deal with (at some level). It's up to the U.S. representatives to stress the importance of quality and attention to detail. I think Jason's trying to bring this change of thinking to the market, and it's good for all of us!

* Supporting Jason's previous statement: we've never had a problem with any of his front hub kits. Recently there was an issue with rears, but I'm confident it will get worked out knowing how he tackles these problems..

 

[johnrobholmes]

I am glad that I was not the only person that has noticed a large lack of quality control in this small industry. From throttles to controllers, and motors too. It all seems to be shoddy and half assed on production! It shouldn't be so difficult to bring kits together that are reliable. I think the first issue that really needs to be addressed are the controllers. They really need to be standardized and rated for what they can actually handle.

 

[amberwolf]

As a person that's done beta testing for various types of software for different companies (mostly music-creation-related, and mostly based in the USA), I've got to say that even beta testing won't get out all the bugs, not even the major ones.

It isn't usually because they aren't *found* in testing, it's usually because it would:
--take too long to fix (time, which equals money)
--be too much work (time/money),
--require changes too deep to risk for fear of breaking something else major (or a lot of little stuff), which would require *full* retesting from the beginning again (time/money)
--break marketing's pre-made schedules, some of which are set in stone because of technology convention/show dates, magazine ads already printed with release dates and feature lists, etc.

Sometimes they aren't fixed because it's felt that it would not affect the majority of users, and/or are not considered "bugs" but rather just a side-effect of the way it is designed, so that some users that want to use the product differently will just have to live with the design (even if it had been different in previous versions, allowing it to be used either way without problems).

Sometimes major problems are indeed not found in testing, often because no one in the tests thought to try to use it that way, or because they were ordered to do a specific set of tests, and bugs found when not doing those tests either were not accepted when reported or were not even reported at all, simply because it was outside the scope of what was supposed to be done (even if it caused the software to "blow up" or crash in some horribly bad way).


I've never beta tested hardware, which I'm sure is different, but the attitude of the software industry is much more marketing-based than user- or functionality- based, even when it is "mission critical" software, like much of what I have tested.

Most of what I tested is software intended to be used professionally, by people making their *living* by using that software to capture and edit musical performances by other professional performers, all of whose time is quite valuable (a short few hours (or less) of their time can be far more valuable than the software itself), and when something goes wrong and either loses data (especially performances) or a workflow is changed (or badly designed in the first place) and prevents easy and quick work from being done, it hurts everyone, loses money, potentially destroys reputations, etc. Yet the bug fixing seems to get done less and less, and pushing out the door unfixed more and more, with vague "maybe we'll fix it in the next version" handwaves (which happens less and less, with some bugs still around a decade later, until they simply take out the feature instead of fixing it).


I expect the same is true of hardware as it is for software, no matter the type of hardware. Even in the auto industry there are some pretty major bugs that get unfixed (some of which I'm sure they knew about before release) until they get enough complaints they have to do a recall or similar. Even computer hardware by major manufacturers is problematic--does anyone remember the Intel Pentium math flaw? Sure, it wouldn't affect most operations, but if you used that function and needed precision...ooops.


I don't like it *at all*, but it's a fact of industry, possibly (probably) much more these days than before, products are pushed out the door long before they are ready, because costs are too high compared to the prices consumers will pay for a fully-engineered product. It simply takes too much time and too much money to really design and test a product as thoroughly as needed to eliminate all the major and most of the minor bugs. It could take literally years from start to finish, especially with something like hardware that needs long-term reliability testing, and most companies are too small to fund something like that without a return on investment sooner than that. Even big companies usually can't afford it because their investors expect a return sooner than that, and when they don't get one they pull out, which could take the company down (or at least, take money out of the pockets of the guys at the top, which they certainly won't allow to happen).

Plus widespread marketing of a product generally has to be started a specific lead time in advance of release, and often people expect a certain date of release--if it's not ready by then, marketing will have made the company look like idiots that can't even get something done on time. The public in general doesn't have a clue to what goes on in product developement, and doesnt' care. All they want is something that works right first time every time, at the lowest possible price.

That last is what really causes a lot of this problem. Competitors who are willing to sell a less-tested and possibly less-reliable product sell it for a LOT less than the planned prices for the well-tested and probably more-reliable product, so that manufacturer either has to cut off testing at some point and just *sell* the thing so they can make it into the market early enough to earn something back before having to cut prices to match competition, and/or they have to just cut the prices and lose even more money. So they end up skipping a significant amount of testing, or at least of fixing problems already found by testing, just because if they keep working on it, they'll spend so much money that they can never break even, much less make a profit from it.

The public generally doesn't see the difference between the two, or doesn't care because one is so much cheaper than the other, or sees it after enough time has gone by to show which brand was crap and which was not, but still doesn't change buying habits and still buys the cheapest stuff, which only encourages crap and discourages testing/fixing. Only a small minority will buy based on how reliable something is--most care more about price. That's why Wallywhatevermart and their ilk do so well, and drive so many good businesses and companies down to their level or out of business altogether.

The good products can still be made, but they will have to cost *much* more than normal, simply because they have much less of a market, as most people would rather buy the cheapie and keep replacing it than a single reliable thing that will last for years, or a lifetime. There's just no way for them to make their money back otherwise. The problem gets worse because the higher they have to raise the price, the smaller the market segment and eventually the slice is too narrow and is no longer worth doing.

Some of that also has to do with "new feature" versioning of software and model years of cars--it's trained various segments of the public to periodically *want* to replace their stuff just to get the new features, styles, etc, and not care as much about the flaws in the old versions. You're going to replace it next year or two anyway, so who cares? You won't have to live with the problem very long, right?


Anyway, there's my rant...er, take on the subject.

 

[Russell]

Well this is the first I've seen dealers openly whining about the quality of parts they get but what do you expect US to do about it? The chain of command is we complain to dealers and dealers complain to their suppliers, except of course when we bypass you folks and buy directly from China, then we get to have all of the fun I think this forum is a great place for end-users to share their experiences, both positive and negative, but it's then up to you dealers to get that feedback along with your own observations and testing back to the manufacturers. The problem here of course is the manufacturers are a world away in China and to them North America is still a relatively small market for ebike parts. Furthermore you dealers are a fragmented bunch with not a lot of clout over there. What I suggest is for dealers to band together to form a coalition which can work for the betterment of all. For example if all of you would have tackled the rear 9C motor problem from the start it would have been solved long ago. So while I feel for what you guys go through I also think you folks need to listen even more to what we your customers are saying then get together and push your suppliers to improve. Now get to work, I want better stuff and I want it ASAP. :wink:


-R

 

[cycle9]

I'm glad to see I'm not alone in being concerned about this.

I have a few thoughts:

- regarding software and beta testing, I see where you're coming from amberwolf. In my day job, I run a group of 12 software developers who are building next generation tools for analysis of biological data. I agree that a lot of software is pushed out before prime time. But I also see that changing rapidly in the market. People seem to be focused more on getting features that they have right, and less on feature bloat (not in all cases, but in many). The big difference is that if your software just stopped working altogether and had to be sent in the mail (by expensive post) to get a replacement that does work, you might be a bit more angry about it. That's the thing - in many of these cases we're not just talking about little glitches or occasional misbehavior, we're talking about complete and total failure of the system, usually in the middle of use (e.g. climbing a hill and controller fails, or riding along and spoke breaks).

But you did hit the nail on the head when you said many people aren't willing to pay for quality. I do think that quantity and price over quality are endemic in most of society these days, and it is too bad.

- I appreciate Jason's nice words for us, and though we haven't done much business with him, he seems upstanding. And I also agree that the front NineContinent motors are reliable (we've sold a fair number of those with minimal problems). But the controllers may still be an issue. Maybe the latest batch will be fine and never have a problem - but I'm pretty sure there will be some failure rate, that is much higher than it would be for a comparable component in the auto industry. I believe the basic problem is that every manufacturer over-rates their controllers, and when people push them to their limits, things break. Some more than others.

- There are a number of upstanding folks in addition to Jason that do care about this. We've done a lot of business with Justin from ebikes, and he actively works to correct or rectify any problems that occur. But despite his best efforts, failure rates on some parts have been very high. For example, the eZee hub motors themselves have been rock solid, but their controllers have repeatedly failed when pushed to "48V" (the problem is that LifePo4 16-cell is pushing 58V, which this controller can't handle). For some odd reason (maybe the hot weather here), our customers were the ones who experienced most of the early failures, with one customer whom we've had to send 4 eZee controllers and a replacement battery to. It's amazing that this customer is still friendly with us after all this. After the latest failure, we're sending him an infineon that I've personally tested on my own bike for several weeks. So my point is that, despite the best efforts of great people like Jason, Justin, ourselves and many others, failures just keep happening at far too high of a rate. BMC is also pretty good about sending out replacements (or crediting for them) after a failure. But this just isn't the way things should be. Customers shouldn't experience a first failure, but for them to experience repeated failures is simply unacceptable (and unfortunately for us it has been more than one customer with more than one product that has had that miserable experience).

- As for a solution, one idea is an "e-bike consumers group" that is similar in spirit to Consumer Reports. The group can do active testing of products and/or rigorous polling of people about their experiences with products in an unbiased way, and then make an annual report of reliability and etc. This would put substantially greater pressure on people to improve the quality, to avoid the dreaded "black circles" (you know what I mean if you've ever read Consumer Reports).

- Regarding overseas manufacturing, I think many of the Chinese and other remote manufacturers *want* to do the right thing. But there are tremendous pressures on them, and their margins are razor thin. And they also have a different notion of what constitutes quality, so often they just don't "get it" when we say it is not good enough. I worked extensively with one company to develop an e-bike, and it took repeated meetings and phone calls for them to understand what I meant when I said "quality is the #1 priority". I even offered to pay a few dollars extra per bike to have additional QC procedures, but they just didn't understand why I would want to pay them more money, since they already felt it was "high quality". I had a great deal of difficulty conveying what it was that I wanted, because in their mind they had already produced a top-notch product (it was much better than they were selling to their Chinese customers - but by our standards here, not so great). Ultimately, I believe one outcome of our present economic predicament is that some manufacturing will be moving closer to home (due to dollar devaluation and the inflationary impact on imported goods). If I'm right about that, it may prevent some of these cultural misunderstandings about what is expected and why if things are produced closer to home.

It's been a long day now, so I'm out of here for the evening.

 

[jag]

With the first summer of ebiking behind me I have had a very positive experience. That is the vendor, ebikes.ca, was helpful and stood behind their products, just like many other dealers on this forum, and I had only two minor problems (a resistor fix in the CA and a broken charger).

I agree that the BMC 1000W seems like a premature product. However, thanks to the great eBike community I know this, and I think most who bought the 1000W knew they were taking a risk.

By contrast, I had to buy a high end laundry washer not long ago to sanitize baby diapers for my newborn. The first one didn't sanitize at all (unless you think 45C will kill germs...). The department store took it back but was not apologetic at all about selling an inferior product. Why would they care? How many of their customers stick an oven thermometer in the washer to check the sanitize cycle anway. There's no community (I know about) that is as passionate about washers as ES is about ebikes, so coming by relevant information is much harder. And a high end washer is around $2000. In the same range as a typical eBike build. (my eBike was only $1000 in parts)

Don't get me started on the vacuum cleaner I bought, where the bags don't fit properly. I have exchanged it 3 or 4 times and still doesn't work. Again, big chain store don't care that they sell products that don't function.

So I guess my point is that on the balance of things, it is relatively easy to get a reliable ebike, while for many everyday products we spend lots of money on designs far worse than anything I've seen in the eBike world.

 

[cycle9]

Hey,
It's great that you've had a good experience and become an enthusiast! It is true that some people are lucky out of the gate and have virtually no problems. I'd say about 60% of the time that is the case, though less so with brand new products.

The trouble is the other 40% (not a precise number, but a good guess). As a dealer we see a lot more of the troubles, because we're interacting with 100's or 1000's of users. A failure rate anywhere above 10% is way too high in my opinion.

I agree that there is a general problem with QC in the world, and that there are plenty of other products that fail to meet expectations. But I doubt that with washers there is a general failure rate as high as this. A place like Best Buy wouldn't carry something that had more than a 30% return rate for long - because they wouldn't make any money on it. And unlike us e-bike dealers, they aren't enthusiasts. So they have no extra motivation to keep promoting something that isn't making them money.

I know that the folks at ebikes.ca work their rear ends off (like we do) to make sure customers are happy. But no matter how hard a dealer works, if the products are failing at a high rate, there are going to be some bad experiences out there (too many).

Again, I ask you to think about how you'd feel if you were the unlucky customer that had four controller failures and one battery failure? Or if you had bought two V1 BMC kits and both failed within the first 20 minutes of use? Or if you got a rear Nine Continent that you couldn't ride because spokes keep breaking? Those stories are just the tip of the iceberg - there are many, many of those kinds of stories. Too many.

As someone who has been an enthusiast since '94, I've had some products that worked reliably, and others not so much. But what surprises me is that now, 15 years after I started tinkering with and riding ebikes, there are still many of the same kinds of QC issues as with the first Zap kit I put on my bike back then.

People may say that it is whining (in fact, someone did upthread). But if "whining" is what it takes to get some improved products in the hands of dealers and customers, I'll keep doing it.

Would I like to make a better product? Yes. But that's a lot easier said than done - it takes money and lots of it. Since all the money is being eaten by Wall St these days :? , capital is not so easy to come by . Nontheless, I'm not just "whining", I do have some efforts underway to improve things - as do some of the other folks that I know in the industry.

With the first summer of ebiking behind me I have had a very positive experience. That is the vendor, ebikes.ca, was helpful and stood behind their products, just like many other dealers on this forum, and I had only two minor problems (a resistor fix in the CA and a broken charger).

I agree that the BMC 1000W seems like a premature product. However, thanks to the great eBike community I know this, and I think most who bought the 1000W knew they were taking a risk.

By contrast, I had to buy a high end laundry washer not long ago to sanitize baby diapers for my newborn. The first one didn't sanitize at all (unless you think 45C will kill germs...). The department store took it back but was not apologetic at all about selling an inferior product. Why would they care? How many of their customers stick an oven thermometer in the washer to check the sanitize cycle anway. There's no community (I know about) that is as passionate about washers as ES is about ebikes, so coming by relevant information is much harder. And a high end washer is around $2000. In the same range as a typical eBike build. (my eBike was only $1000 in parts)

Don't get me started on the vacuum cleaner I bought, where the bags don't fit properly. I have exchanged it 3 or 4 times and still doesn't work. Again, big chain store don't care that they sell products that don't function.

So I guess my point is that on the balance of things, it is relatively easy to get a reliable ebike, while for many everyday products we spend lots of money on designs far worse than anything I've seen in the eBike world.

 

[ecowheelz]

40% failure rate sounds about right to me...

And you're right, this would never fly with washers, or TVs, or any consumer electronics product that was sold in mass at large retailers. That's why I thought it was quite comical when I heard Best Buy was giving electric bikes a shot. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!

When Best Buy starts running into all these issues we deal with every day, they're going to quickly jump ship. As for us, we're in it for the long haul. So all we can do is keep voicing our concerns (and "WHINE") until they get this stuff right!

 

[retro]

An excellent thread and topic.

As a potential customer yet to make any purchases, I have found the information on Endless-sphere invaluable. What to buy? Who to buy from? Stand alone kit? Pieces and parts? Theories? A lot of information to digest and I consider myself intelligent, though not always the smartest :?

As a new industry in the NA market it will be a long road to impress itself as a viable alternative in the minds of consumers. I would think the average person wouldn't want to invest much time on forums to learn more. There are two stickies in this forum: Manufacturers/Dealers to Gravitate Towards, Manufacturers to Avoid. I read through these consistently because I don't want to get burned. But what about Joe and Josephine Average who will never look at this forum?

My thought while reading this topic was to create a dealer association for the NA market. There are conscientious dealers posting here and others mentioned in this thread and I'm sure all of you have the same desires to see this industry expand to more than a hobby for either you or the consumer. Set standards and expectations to the members of the association then have that posted on each of your business websites, store fronts, newspaper ads, and so on.

Furthermore you dealers are a fragmented bunch with not a lot of clout over there. What I suggest is for dealers to band together to form a coalition which can work for the betterment of all.

This idea works both for the consumer and the Chinese manufacturers that need to learn how to expand into North America as well.

Just my 2cents

 

[OneWayTraffic]

Morgan I think the solution with Ezee is to just supply it as it's given. The big attraction of the Ezee kit for me, is that it should 'just work.'

Drop it into the dropouts, bolt it in, plug it in and go. As originally designed that's pretty much what it does. But a 36v/48v controller not handling 60v is hardly something one can blame the manufacturer for.

 

[dogman dan]

I think one issue not discussed so far in this thread is that the way we use the ebike is changing. Sla's kept us from going far enough to melt a motor. The voltage sag kept controllers from having to handle quite so many watts, and again, we stopped to recharge before they got very hot. So some of the QC issues result from battery improvements outpacing the motors and controllers.

Sadly though, much of the problems do seem to be just shoddy stuff that is a way of life in many communist societies, and our own unwillingness to pay for quality stuff. Even so, a bike wheel that doesn't break the spokes shouldn't be too much to ask. That, at least, is not evolving technology. Everything needs some testing before sale, at the retail level if it's not happening at the manufacturer level. A controller or charger should not go poof as soon as it's plugged in by a customer.

 

[Joey]

Morgan,

The best solution in my opinion would to have e-bike components for the masses manufactured in the US with high quality control. This has been deemed cost prohibitive for several decades due to the disparity in labor costs between the US and the Far East. However, I would think that in a deep economic downturn with unemployment reaching 10% that a "green" design and manufacturing activity could exploit government incentives and reduced labor costs to create something reliable and competitive on the basis of perceived value.

Optibike seems to be succeeding with a business model that focuses on green liesure machines for the wealthy. I assume they plan to extend their customer base over time by slowly introducing less expensive models as they pay off their NRE costs. Most of us don't want to wait that long for something to show up in our price range. I think someone should develop US-made E-bike and E-bike kits that fall somewhere between the Optibike and the mostly lousy machines that are beginning to show up in US department stores.

Joey

 

[cycle9]

Hey OneWay,
The issue with the eZee is that the mfg specified that this controller is capable of dual volt usage 36v/48v. ALL standard LiFePO4 batteries (16-cell) charge up to 58V then discharge down to ~46-48V during use.

So if you go out and buy a "48V LiFePO4" and hook it up to your 36v/48v eZee, you are very likely to fry your controller (at least 50% of them have fried). That's because when your "48v" battery is charged, it will be up around 58V.

The manufacturer does deserve some blame on this one, since they specified an operating condition that it can't actually handle.

Morgan I think the solution with Ezee is to just supply it as it's given. The big attraction of the Ezee kit for me, is that it should 'just work.'

Drop it into the dropouts, bolt it in, plug it in and go. As originally designed that's pretty much what it does. But a 36v/48v controller not handling 60v is hardly something one can blame the manufacturer for.

 

[cycle9]

Hey Joey,
Your thoughts echo my own. I have been mulling around what I can do in this regard.

I was thinking that E+ also is US made, though their website doesn't actually say that... so maybe not.

But I do hope that more of the production moves back here... we need the jobs ... and the quality.

Morgan

Morgan,

The best solution in my opinion would to have e-bike components for the masses manufactured in the US with high quality control. This has been deemed cost prohibitive for several decades due to the disparity in labor costs between the US and the Far East. However, I would think that in a deep economic downturn with unemployment reaching 10% that a "green" design and manufacturing activity could exploit government incentives and reduced labor costs to create something reliable and competitive on the basis of perceived value.

Optibike seems to be succeeding with a business model that focuses on green liesure machines for the wealthy. I assume they plan to extend their customer base over time by slowly introducing less expensive models as they pay off their NRE costs. Most of us don't want to wait that long for something to show up in our price range. I think someone should develop US-made E-bike and E-bike kits that fall somewhere between the Optibike and the mostly lousy machines that are beginning to show up in US department stores.

Joey

 

[StudEbiker]

Good video, good posts, and good thread. Just want to say that this forum has been very valuable to me, I lurked on here for about a year before buying the kit from hightekbikes and just a little plug for Terry over there, his kit has been awesome. The only glitches that it has had is things that I have goofed on from my own inexperience, and those things have been few and easy to fix. I know the arguments against front hubs, but this kit really is a KISS method e-bike conversion. Terry has also been helpful and very communicative as well. I've never felt like I was a "necessary nuisance" (I'm looking at you GoldenMotor) when dealing with him. Thanks for the great post Morgan and facilitating a good conversation here on the Sphere!