BIG BLOCK alternative Motor

[bzhwindtalker]

Back in 2012... http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=37805&start=30

 

[crossbreak]

so you thnink we should swap the sprocket? A bigger one would be nice.. like 16 or 18T to keep the chain force down.

 

[cassschr1]

Has anyone tried zombiess throttle tamer? Are you aware of it . He posted a video on a scope of it.

 

[crossbreak]

i developed my own. Mine is even better IMO Anyway, best is a real torque mode controller. My throttle interfacer does a great job at 0 - 60% of no load speed. At 60% you start to "feel" the steps since throttle resolution so very low in this speed range, at least for the cheap X8M06 controllers. Did not try infineons much, but they feel not only much faster but also more precise.. something I have to measure..

Anyway, there are lots of throttle and Controller threads. Lets talk more about gearing and mounting of this motor.

 

[crossbreak]

This motor has more poles and runs fast at 2850 rpm @ 48V. Would be an option for those who want more reduction.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Brushless-DC-motor_1339360772.html

 

[bionicdan]

I am thinking this is the easiest to get hold off value for money block but would like to run 24-36v. Mainly as I already have 24v and 36v controllers/batteries meant for the likes of a conhis DD motor. Would these sensored controllers run this motor or would the max rpm be too low.

This ebay guy is supplying this motor with a 420 chain. Is he wrong in doing that? If it was 420 the cog would match a bmx chain spacing. I guess you could slim the motor cog and use bmx chain or use 420 chain on slimmer sprockets. Only the width is different.

http://www.gizmology.net/sprockets.htm

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200936205559?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I have a 49t chainring that will hopefully go on the disc side of this bike with a 12t freewheel on the motor.

 

[crossbreak]

it would be around 1000rpm at 36V. you would need a 1:2 reduction get some speed... that will feel very week. or slow. not powerful it's too heavy for jokes like that. If it was half of the weight at the same specs than i'd say your plan was feasible.

With 12t/49T your bike will go something like 28kph or 18mph max speed.

the 420 sprocket is 8T. That is a waste, it will be load and will wear the chain. Never go for sprockets smaller than 12T, they are not worth the effort. There are only very little usages where they really make sense.

 

[bionicdan]

Hi thanks for the reply. My goal is to match the 50+ miles range me and my gf currently get from our bikes, not break speed barriers. I want her to be safe. We want super comfy touring bikes. She loves my orange patriot but cant get her leg over the battery on the crossbar lol.

I used to have a unite my1016 motor and really liked that setup for low weight and high range. I am just thinking of that system but doubled.

Its an awkward frame and this motor looks the most likely to fit my needs. Due to this low rpm motor I have room to fiddle the top speed by switching between 12-16t freewheels if needed while keeping with a single stage reduction.

this is the current sore arse machine. It has an 18-20mph top speed on the road but on cliff top tracks we usually do 12mph due to her bumpy bike.

 

[crossbreak]

if you want speed you need volts. no propper way arround it except RC drives. dont try Delta termination etc, that doesn't work good with most motors

 

[bionicdan]

I want efficiency

 

[crossbreak]

ups..i thought you want a speed in the 50mph range

If you want best efficiency, you need a multispeed system and you shall shift as often as needed, keeping the motor in it's efficiency zone. Limiting phase amps helps many people to do so. Have a look into the middrive section of our wiki: http://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/EBike_Motors_Middrive

 

[bionicdan]

This pink bike has 3 built in lugs for a chain device that will probably interfere with most bottom bracket drives unless I make my own sytem to utilise them.

As my Gf isnt overly technically minded (2d graphics student) I know she will bog a mid drive down and generally just mash the gears to bits. Iv only just taught her to shift up gears before the 20% hill not half way up it!#*

Maybe I will just buy the motor and try my conhis dd motor controller to see if it works. If it doesnt il buy a new controller. I just wondered if anyone knew as it will mean another month waiting for parts from china.

I wanted this but its sensorless, only 2.5kg though, it would have been great. The sellers will only tell me a max rpm (5000) so its probably no good anyway.
http://e-bike-diffusion.com/index.php?module=produit&prd_id=519&url_retour=http%253A%252F%252Fe-bike-diffusion.com%253A80%252Findex.php%253Fmodule%253Dcategorie%2526code_cat%253D26%2526page_start_num%253D2

Cheers for the pointers and Good luck with your speed machines anyway, Cant wait to see how they perform

 

[crossbreak]

the one you showed above is suits your battery a lot better. Maybe you find more data about this one elsewhere.

 

[crossbreak]

seems like there are different versions, both smaller and larger ones. here the 2000W rated motor for example:

http://detail.1688.com/offer/1227187294.html
http://yksuccess.1688.com/page/offe...=false&sortType=showcase&pageNum=2#search-bar

 

[bzhwindtalker]

Looks fat & powerfull, but at this point it would require a very wide frame...

 

[crossbreak]

angle drive LOL

 

[neptronix]

Dude.... even running this straight to the rear wheel would be a riot... not much reduction needed at all.. and fits on a bike frame..

I wish i would have known about motors like this before i wasted my money on difficult to position / mount motors like the MAC 2000W lawnmower motor and the eTek.

 

[skeetab5780]

I bought one! Had to give it a try

 

[turbo1889]

That photo is so painful to see. The motor and controller look great. The part where they have a pair of inherently high loss 90deg power transfer stages, along with an oil filled differential is the part causing all the pain. It seems insane everyone doesn't just use a pair of hubmotors for those trike applications. I'm in China right now, and I see those electric trikes running around everywhere. I don't know why they don't make them cheaper and lighter and more robust and radically more efficient and quiet by dropping all the ICE powered legacy parts and designing it around being electric rather than some cobbled multi-stage power transfer/loss shenanigans. At least it's not ICE powered, but it's sad to not see electric be done as well as it can be.

I would like to comment on this discussion that took a few laps starting with this post a page back based on some actual experience I've had with a full size e-vehicle. Vehicle in question was an old 80's Nissan compact pickup truck that had a burned up and worn out 4-cyl IC motor. Guy I know converted it to run off an 8-Kw electric motor that ran through the existing drive train (manual clutch 5-speed rear wheel drive differential). For cargo hauling it actually worked incredibly well because you could use the manual transmission gears and clutch to downshift against the electric motor for some pretty incredible regenerative braking capability. Unloaded you could pretty much drive the thing around by just leaving it in 4th gear and never touching the clutch or shifting and just press on the pedal to go and let off to lightly regen brake when approaching a stop (controller was set to go into regen braking mode whenever throttle pedal was all the way up and you weren't pushing down on it at all). But when you got a load on it that manual transmission and manual clutch really allowed you to take the regen braking thing to new levels since when you down shifted it really spun that motor up for some serious regeneration and excellent controlled stopping when hauling a load.

So for cargo hauling at least going through a manual-transmission/manual-clutch unit is not a bad idea at all because of the ability to downshift regen brake through the lower gears especially if one is already used to downshift compression braking when hauling loads on an IC powered truck. I do agree that the double 90-degree is a dumb idea. So much easier to just build a rear axle assembly with the motor/clutch/transmission/differential all in-line with each other and "piggy backed" on top of that solid rear drive axle. For heavy cargo load hauling a solid axle like that despite the un-sprung weight does have its advantages although personally I would want only the axle itself and possibly the differential to be the only un-sprung weight and mount the motor and transmission to the vehicle body and use a shaft/chain/belt drive to connect to the sold cargo axle.

Direct drive hub-motors even just for bicycle use are not a very good option for true cargo hauling ability at least in my experience. For a cargo hauling a manual transmission with manual clutch that allows aggressive downshifting regen braking (and also downshifting for getting those big loads moving or dragging them up hills) is a very good idea. Why do you think the big 18+ wheel tractor trailer rigs still use manual clutch transmissions? Infact due to the greater downshifting regen braking ability of electric motors compared to IC compression braking the argument for this kind of drive system is even stronger for heavy cargo hauling.

Now if we aren't talking cargo hauling but rather just light duty transportation car or bike or anything in-between then, yes especially in flatter terrain going with a much lighter weight simpler system makes a whole lot of sense and I fully agree the system pictured is far from ideal. But if you want to haul heavy cargo loads efficiently, effectively, and safely big heavy rugged components including big solid axles and manual transmissions with manual clutching combined with back-up heavy duty physical brakes are the way to go.

I for one when hauling or towing heavy cargo loads via. e-bike (So far my personal records for e-bike cargo hauling are about 1.5-tons for trailer pulled loads and 600-lbs. for cargo hauled directly on the the bike) find even current e-bike mid-drive technology not fully sufficient or ideal in that although I've got plenty of gearing ability open to me for pulling the loads I can't downshift regen brake through the same gearing system. Been working for a while trying to figure out how to build a mid-drive that is effective and efficient and safe and reliable that allows downshifting against the motor through the same gear ratios so far haven't figured it out using conventional bicycle type drive systems. The system I tried using the S&A three speed fixed gear hub tore up the hub and I have yet to completely figure out how to get a derailer gearing system to take reverse down-shifting fixie loads back into the motor and be reliable although one close spacing double spool mid-transmission system I tried did come close but would still occasionally skip when a reverse load was suddenly applied under the resulting shock whipping in the short loop of chain when it went from being sprung on one side of the loop to the other.

 

[littleskull99]

so.. any news on this motor? its either crap and thats why the threads gone quiet or its amazing and noones back from riding..

matt

 

[crossbreak]

simply no time to really test it ATM. To much work on batteries and my "old" middrive right now. Takes more time to build a drive with this kind of motor than a simple hub.

 

[bzhwindtalker]

should get my Kelly soon, will update

 

[littleskull99]

no worries. thanks guys.

matt.

 

[Drum]

I am ready to order one also.. It would be really nice to have confirmation that it lives up to expectations.

Hi BZH, I've been following your impressive builds for a while. I'm interested to see you are going for a Kelly controller.. I was thinking of going that way too after advice from Crossbreak and a bit of research.. Did you choose the Kelly because it has the option of torque control throttle standard, or for another reason?

Thanks,
Dave R

 

[bzhwindtalker]

I went kelly for the improved control over the cheap infineons/cheap type controllers. I burnt some of those, and the kelly are known for ok to good reliability with a real customer support.
I also like the idea to be able to tweak power curves to each riding style, have programmable regen and all the extra features...
With 130A peak battery side, this controller also has a very nice peak power/weigth ratio!