BMC 1500w Magnet Expoy failure / motor failure
- Thread starter magudaman
- Start date
So........ McMaster-Carr Canceled my order and never told me.
Meenwhile the guy who owns the bike im working on is calling and txing everyday. (I had it for about 1 month and parts got held in customs
)
SO now that im almost done I called McMaster-Carr and asked what was going on with my order then they told me the bad news so I tried ordering it again and got cut off. Then I called again and talked to a new lady and tried to get it airshiped asap and she said locktite Hysol is a dangerous good and cannot be airshiped Then I tried to get it to canada as fast as possible and she said oh Loctite Hysol is a dangerous good and it can not be shiped to canada
Whats this world coming to.... Like realy is homeland security realy worried about terrorist building electric motors?????
Meenwhile the guy who owns the bike im working on is calling and txing everyday. (I had it for about 1 month and parts got held in customs
)SO now that im almost done I called McMaster-Carr and asked what was going on with my order then they told me the bad news so I tried ordering it again and got cut off. Then I called again and talked to a new lady and tried to get it airshiped asap and she said locktite Hysol is a dangerous good and cannot be airshiped
Then I tried to get it to canada as fast as possible and she said oh Loctite Hysol is a dangerous good and it can not be shiped to canada Whats this world coming to.... Like realy is homeland security realy worried about terrorist building electric motors?????
bigmoose
1 MW
Arlo, sorry to hear that. I fully agree with you, all these "regulations" are frankly strangling our ability to have free enterprise, produce, and pursue happiness. The enterprises that will be left standing are the state owned mega corporations that will sell us what the state wants sold.
Like 2 ounces of epoxy is going to down an aircraft, packed in separate, sealed steel tubes and overpacked? I can see restricting 5 gallon pails... sheesh.
Wifey and I just saw Atlas Shrugged, the movie last night. I wanted to stand up and cheer when the train went over the Rearden Metal bridge at speed, saying: "Now that is the America I knew and loved." ... If you like free enterprise see the movie, starts a little slow, but tells the story of political manipulation of business pretty well.
PS: Give the folks at KR Anderson a call and see what they can do for you. Link above. I couldn't find Hysol EA9394 listed at my McMaster.
Like 2 ounces of epoxy is going to down an aircraft, packed in separate, sealed steel tubes and overpacked? I can see restricting 5 gallon pails... sheesh.
Wifey and I just saw Atlas Shrugged, the movie last night. I wanted to stand up and cheer when the train went over the Rearden Metal bridge at speed, saying: "Now that is the America I knew and loved." ... If you like free enterprise see the movie, starts a little slow, but tells the story of political manipulation of business pretty well.
PS: Give the folks at KR Anderson a call and see what they can do for you. Link above. I couldn't find Hysol EA9394 listed at my McMaster.
magudaman
10 kW
Don't know if your still looking or if it makes it any easier to get but the loctite 648 I used for my magnets is working great and it is similar strength to the hysol stuff (better at equal temps). They also show that it remains at full strength in oil and several other types of chemicals and materials. It might have better availability for international shipping too. It does take quite some time to cure properly and all the above mentioned prep procedures still apply.
http://www.loctite.sg/sea/content_data/93769_Loctite_648_Retaining_Compound.pdf
http://www.loctite.sg/sea/content_data/93769_Loctite_648_Retaining_Compound.pdf
dnmun
1 PW
you could have left the magnets in place and used some bearing retainer to bond them in place. it is thin like super glue and just as strong. it wicks into the tightest cracks and you coulda helped by peeling them up a little to insure full coverage on the back of the magnets.
Thanks Again for doing the reserch Bigmoose and telling me what you figured is the best magnet epoxy for my problem. I was driving to my shop yesterday morning and intercepted the canpar delivery lady and got my package. Then I cleaned up the rotor and magnets and mixed up about 1 oz of the epoxy and its a little trickey because its by weight and my scale only goes down to grams. This is pretty thick stuff the epoxy it self is thick and thins down when you add the hardener! So then I say the can says fully cured in 7 days at 74 deg f 
Lol so I put my two heat dishes on the rotor bringing it up to 155 deg f and put the left over cup of epoxy beside it in not quite such a hot spot and worked away then after lunch I found the cup was curred so I installed the rotor in the customers bike and it fired right up did a small test ride and check the oil and he picked it up 2 hours later!
Success! I owe you a beer or coffee or a dinner bigmoose you saved the day and made me a little money!
Lol so I put my two heat dishes on the rotor bringing it up to 155 deg f and put the left over cup of epoxy beside it in not quite such a hot spot and worked away then after lunch I found the cup was curred so I installed the rotor in the customers bike and it fired right up did a small test ride and check the oil and he picked it up 2 hours later!Success! I owe you a beer or coffee or a dinner bigmoose you saved the day and made me a little money!
Attachments
bigmoose
1 MW
Thanks Arlo1! Notice the accelerate heat cure that is cited in the article. 24 hours at room temperature then elevated as specified. The use in the engine oil will finish the cure. It is pretty good at 24 hours, but gets better. Here is hoping it continues well for you. It is amazing how much it thins with the hardener. Another magic feature of chemistry.
dnmun
1 PW
i still think the bearing retainer would have done the job. easier to use and cheaper too. jmho.
it is strong enuff to hold a loaded bearing in place so i think keeping the magnets from moving would be easy.
it is strong enuff to hold a loaded bearing in place so i think keeping the magnets from moving would be easy.
Gordo
100 kW
Retaining a bearing is a little different situation than glue a magnet to a surface. We checked out the Locktite compounds and IIRC 609 is only good to 150*C. I have 3 series of thread/bearing locker in stock. The spec sheets talk about fixing one cylinder in another cylinder, not gluing one segment to a cylinder. Did you have a different product in mind. There is a huge difference in the adhesion of anaerobic glue and 2 part, plus the much higher temperature tolerance of 2 part.
JWITIK
JWITIK
dnmun
1 PW
609 is what i have used, but you are assuming that the magnets delaminated because of heat.
is that truly the case or was it just failure of the original and inadequate bonding?
is that truly the case or was it just failure of the original and inadequate bonding?
Gordo
100 kW
dnmun said:
I will defer to Arlo on that one, for the final word, but from what I saw, the engine was well cooked when he tore it down. From my experience with IC engines there can be a large temperature rise when you suddenly shut down a hot engine because it was doing the woodpecker. Probably exceeding 150*C by a good margin?
609 is not the right product for this aplication
#1 609 is anarobic and the way these magnets sit in the rotor there is no way to pull the air out to cure it.
#2 The temp that this motor runs up to will soffen the 609 if by some miracle it did harden!
#3 These magnets are in the rotor and serve as part of the flywheel to absord the power pulses so all those SHOCKS will crack a lot of weaker glues/epoxies loose!
#4 The chemical resistance of 609 is not good enough to widthstand the hot oil!
#5 I WILL NOT TAKE CHANCES ON A CUSTOMERS BIKE!
This is the best fix I figure and possibly better then factory because this is the second Yamaha I had seen do this in a month!
#1 609 is anarobic and the way these magnets sit in the rotor there is no way to pull the air out to cure it.
#2 The temp that this motor runs up to will soffen the 609 if by some miracle it did harden!
#3 These magnets are in the rotor and serve as part of the flywheel to absord the power pulses so all those SHOCKS will crack a lot of weaker glues/epoxies loose!
#4 The chemical resistance of 609 is not good enough to widthstand the hot oil!
#5 I WILL NOT TAKE CHANCES ON A CUSTOMERS BIKE!
This is the best fix I figure and possibly better then factory because this is the second Yamaha I had seen do this in a month!
dnmun
1 PW
i did not realize this is an ICE engine. i thought we were talking about a geared hub motor. sorry.
Gordo
100 kW
Arlo1 said:
dmun; The thread started out with loose magnets in a BMC but Arlo hi-jacked it with loose magnets on a IC engine rotor. We lost the plot! No wonder you are confused. But if you go back to page 1, you will see at the start the recommendation for 2 part hi-temp product for the frock motor magnets.
Arlo; Can you epoxy a tooth together. Dentist wants $1300 to finish off after already spending $1100 for root canals on it. Two good ebike's worth of $$$ for a built in food processor! Maybe I just buy a blender and a straw?
I had that problem once the dentist wanted 800-900 to fix a crumbling tooth and I asked if there was a cheeper option he said he could pull it for 50 bux!Gordo said:
So now one of my molars is gone! I dont miss it and its been that way for about 12 years!
As for using the Hysol to epoxy your tooth. Well unless we can elevate the temp of your month it needs 7 full days for cure time at 74 Deg f so I think it will still be ~5-6 days at mouth temp! Can you go that long with out eating??
I will have to look up the recipt at my shop next time Im there. I just googled lockite canada and got linked to one phone number then called them and they give me another one and called there and they give me another one lol.whatever said:
Gordo
100 kW
Here is one source;
Ellsworth Adhesives Canada
5109 Harvester Rd, #B3
Burlington, ON,
Canada, L7L 5Y9
Phone: 888 458 0554
Fax: 877 331 6604
E-Mail: infocanada@ellsworth.com
Vancouver: 778 227 2585
Ellsworth Adhesives Canada
5109 Harvester Rd, #B3
Burlington, ON,
Canada, L7L 5Y9
Phone: 888 458 0554
Fax: 877 331 6604
E-Mail: infocanada@ellsworth.com
Vancouver: 778 227 2585
Hey bigmoose I cant find to much about curing other then a little more then room temp will help and it can be fully curred at 150 deg F in a hour. I am about to use this for making the outrunner for my girfriends scooter!bigmoose said:
bigmoose
1 MW
Page 264 of this document http://www.scribd.com/doc/40109738/NASA-Glenn-Research-Center-2006-Annual-Report
Has the time-temperature-transformation graph for the Hysol EA9394. The graph is pretty strange if you never saw one before. I had the benefit of having someone explain it to me like 5 times!
It recommends the following cure:Cure kinetics studies were completed on this resin and a time-temperature-transformation (TTT) diagram was con- structed (see the graph) using samples cured in folded aluminum foil to simulate the actual magnet bonding conditions. A two-step cure cycle was suggested on the basis of the TTT diagram: for example, an initial cure at a lower temperature, such as 24 hr at either 25 or 66 °C, followed by treatment at a higher tem- perature, preferably 85 °C, to drive the cure to completion.
So reading the graph, one day at room temperature 25 °C (gives about a 85% cure) followed by a day at 85 °C will give you about a 96% total cure. Remember these guys are anal about everything and want the total available bond strength. I would think anything over 90% with this super epoxy is more than you will need. 90% is 7 days at room temperature, or one day at room temperature followed by about a day at 85 °C. Remember it is more than safe to handle after a day cure at room temperature. If your post magnet bonding fab time is a 5 days or a week before the run I see absolutely no need for an elevated temperature cure.
Has the time-temperature-transformation graph for the Hysol EA9394. The graph is pretty strange if you never saw one before. I had the benefit of having someone explain it to me like 5 times!
It recommends the following cure:Cure kinetics studies were completed on this resin and a time-temperature-transformation (TTT) diagram was con- structed (see the graph) using samples cured in folded aluminum foil to simulate the actual magnet bonding conditions. A two-step cure cycle was suggested on the basis of the TTT diagram: for example, an initial cure at a lower temperature, such as 24 hr at either 25 or 66 °C, followed by treatment at a higher tem- perature, preferably 85 °C, to drive the cure to completion.
So reading the graph, one day at room temperature 25 °C (gives about a 85% cure) followed by a day at 85 °C will give you about a 96% total cure. Remember these guys are anal about everything and want the total available bond strength. I would think anything over 90% with this super epoxy is more than you will need. 90% is 7 days at room temperature, or one day at room temperature followed by about a day at 85 °C. Remember it is more than safe to handle after a day cure at room temperature. If your post magnet bonding fab time is a 5 days or a week before the run I see absolutely no need for an elevated temperature cure.
