Car Goes Downwind 2.5 Times Faster Than the Wind

[endlessplane]

Oh! Ok, I think I am getting this now. The wheels turn the propeller, maintaining the difference in pressures between the front and rear of the vehicle. So the wind speed is irrelevant to the vehicle speed, the only factor that matters is the difference in kinetic energy between the air and the ground. Am I close?

I would say yes, you are correct.
- The prop always slows down the air relative to the ground (extracting energy)
- The prop always experiences an aerodynamic force forward
- The prop always rotates opposite to the aerodynamic torque on it
- The wheels always turn the prop via the transmission (against the aerodynamic torque)
- The wheels always experience a ground reaction force backward
- The forward force at the propeller can only be greater than the retarding force at the wheels, if there is true wind (energy conservation)

 

[doctorGONZO]

doctorGONZO:

I too used to firmly refute the idea that a vehicle could run directly downwind faster than the wind. That's still true of sail, but the vehicles in question are not sail-driven. They are propeller-driven.

The power for the propeller, in essence, comes from the difference between the airspeed and the surface speed. Does this make more sense to you?

Chalo: My discontent for this kar is primarily based on its OP description as having NO ENERGY STORAGE, and, its general description as provided by its photos in its FINAL (?) configuration, and the fervently stated proviso that the prop is FIXED PITCH. ANd, of course, that it is running directly downwind.

Thirty years ago (very roughly) I discovered a way that a wind powered kar could run directly downwind, with no energy storage, and, fu#k prop pitch, and exceed wind speed on a sustained basis.


The kar that is shown in the comedy photos and cartoons in this thread DOES NOT AT ALL MATCH the required configuration.

DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE TO YOU??

 

[doctorGONZO]

Wait a minute. Thinking about it, it was likely in 1974 that I discovered the WonderKar. 2004 makes 30 years. 2014 makes 40 years.

So it was round about 40 years ago today that doctorGONZO taught the band how to play. Kind of like Sgt. Pepper. wink.


PS And there was't a fu#kin prop. So it didn't matter anyway if the thread skam kar had a fixed pitch prop or not. The thread kar is not the downwind fast kar. There is no way in hell that the thread skam kar as descripted could do over wind speed. Not even in a flash excursion. Like the male chihuaha that fell in love with the female great dane, it just doesn't have the RIGHT EQUIPMENT. wink.

 

[John in CR]

DrGonzo,
It's sad that you lack the mental horsepower to understand how the machine works, but you're just a troll anyway to come back a month later just to stir the pot.

 

[liveforphysics]

It is a prime example that each individual has his own independent reality that is composed exclusively of his own choice of beliefs.

We could put this man on the deck of the vehicle with his own choice of calibrated hand-held wind speed meter and a GPS speed measuring device, and have him travel at greater than downwind wind speed for a hundred miles and he could choose not to believe what he is experiencing is occurring, and in a human's reality, the belief of the individual is the exclusive determining factor in what is real or not real to the individual.

In the big picture, Dr. Gonzo recognizing the evidence and physics of it's method of operation does not matter. We are fortunate that in this universe, the downwind car still works equally well with or without his approval. 8)

 

[John in CR]

Very true. It could be that he's just too closed minded to try to figure out why and how it works.

 

[tomjasz]

Obviously the troll has never sailed on water, hard water, or land.

 

[doctorGONZO]

It is a prime example that each individual has his own independent reality that is composed exclusively of his own choice of beliefs.

We could put this man on the deck of the vehicle with his own choice of calibrated hand-held wind speed meter and a GPS speed measuring device, and have him travel at greater than downwind wind speed for a hundred miles and he could choose not to believe what he is experiencing is occurring, and in a human's reality, the belief of the individual is the exclusive determining factor in what is real or not real to the individual.

In the big picture, Dr. Gonzo recognizing the evidence and physics of it's method of operation does not matter. We are fortunate that in this universe, the downwind car still works equally well with or without his approval. 8)

doctorGONZO is so grateful for For's lenient attitude toward all of my science and perceptual sins. When I die, you, For, REALLY will open the gates of Your Heaven for me?!!

We are fortunate that in this universe, the downwind car still works equally well with or without his approval.

For, I am already certain that yo kar works equally well regardless of whether I know about it or think about it. Non-functional is non-functional regardless of who happens to be looking at it. Yo kar could only go past windspeed if illegally helped. It is my opinion that that is what happened.

I have already explained that, long ago, I discovered how to go past windspeed legitimately according to the protocols of the OP. And I have explained that yo kar dont look like it could possibly have the right equipment. It is a 99.999....% probability that yo kar was a deliberate scam. With a slight residual possibility that it was somehow an honest mistake. How many time do I have to tell you that the entirety of Newtonian Physics, in the regime of low velocity and low energy, must be grossly rewritten if yo kar peformed as claimed?

It aint happ'nin, Jack.

 

[doctorGONZO]

Obviously the troll has never sailed on water, hard water, or land.

100% correct. But I have studied the principles of tacking downwind and upwind. Of course a vehicle can tack faster than the wind.

And even more obviously the munchkin has never learned one page of basic Newtonian Physics.

By bringing this into your crucifixion of me, you are overtly putting your conversation on a blatantly lying and morally criminal plane. The OP criteria is DIRECTLY DOWNWIND. Tell me, Jack, do you understand the difference between DIRECTLY DOWNWIND and TACKING?

Apparently not.

 

[doctorGONZO]

Very true. It could be that he's just too closed minded to try to figure out why and how it works.

Thats one of the biggest lies that you have ever told (in all the excitement I have lost count).

Before I began to earnestly criticize the Krazy Kar, I extensively studied it to try to figure out how it could meet the stated criteria and actually work according to Newtonian Physics. I wasted far too much time on the turkey.

And I actually have a quite good understanding of physics, in sharp contrast to you and the rest of the munchkins, who seem to have learned all of your physics from watching reruns of Star Trek and smokin really strong weed man.

 

[doctorGONZO]

DrGonzo,
It's sad that you lack the mental horsepower to understand how the machine works, but you're just a troll anyway to come back a month later just to stir the pot.

You are totally wrong. I have already posted that I figured out out how to hide an illegal source of propulsion in the Wonder Kar. I am quite certain that I know how how the kar "worked".

You remind me of the scene in Taxi Driver in which the fat pimp tells Travis Bickle "Come back to my whorehouse any time you want to." And Travis, packing his 44 Magnum and a few more backup guns, tells the fat pimp, "I sure will!"

 

[tomjasz]

Obviously the troll has never sailed on water, hard water, or land.

100% correct. But I have studied the principles of tacking downwind and upwind. Of course a vehicle can tack faster than the wind.

And even more obviously the munchkin has never learned one page of basic Newtonian Physics.

By bringing this into your crucifixion of me, you are overtly putting your conversation on a blatantly lying and morally criminal plane. The OP criteria is DIRECTLY DOWNWIND. Tell me, Jack, do you understand the difference between DIRECTLY DOWNWIND and TACKING?

Apparently not.

HOW it works is the scientific debate, NOT IF! Since it's been done, directly downwind, and witnessed and filmed! Dope! You're no Heysus being taken to the cross, apparently just a fool with nothing better to do. Next I imagine we'll listen to tales of the moon landing being filmed in Arizona. I personally had sailed my dirt boats with the witnesses. They are not anonymous trolls on the internets.

EDIT Mea Culpa, I just realized this is your disease in full bloom and you've managed to discount reality on the basis of no experience and rampant paranoia. Sadly your sort never seem to manage to get help. I hope you break the mold and do. I honestly mean that. After going back over the thread, I apologize for the snakiness and name calling. You really just do need a hand up and help. Be well and ride safe. I'm saddened and disheartened by your illness. I will not post in this thread again.

 

[doctorGONZO]

Obviously the troll has never sailed on water, hard water, or land.

100% correct. But I have studied the principles of tacking downwind and upwind. Of course a vehicle can tack faster than the wind.

And even more obviously the munchkin has never learned one page of basic Newtonian Physics.

By bringing this into your crucifixion of me, you are overtly putting your conversation on a blatantly lying and morally criminal plane. The OP criteria is DIRECTLY DOWNWIND. Tell me, Jack, do you understand the difference between DIRECTLY DOWNWIND and TACKING?

Apparently not.

HOW it works is the scientific debate, NOT IF! Since it's been done, directly downwind, and witnessed and filmed! Dope! You're no Heysus being taken to the cross, apparently just a fool with nothing better to do. Next I imagine we'll listen to tales of the moon landing being filmed in Arizona. I personally had sailed my dirt boats with the witnesses. They are not anonymous trolls on the internets.

EDIT Mea Culpa, I just realized this is your disease in full bloom and you've managed to discount reality on the basis of no experience and rampant paranoia. Sadly your sort never seem to manage to get help. I hope you break the mold and do. I honestly mean that. After going back over the thread, I apologize for the snakiness and name calling. You really just do need a hand up and help. Be well and ride safe. I'm saddened and disheartened by your illness. I will not post in this thread again.

So long, dont let the door hit your smelly butt as you go out, I dont want to have to scrub your sh*t off my door.

Yes, Virginia, there really is a difference between TACKING and DIRECTLY DOWNWIND. Even if a great many sailing bums and surfing bums and really strong weed smokers and other rich bitch idlers dont know the difference because of the deep purple haze they are enjoying........And dont have the faintest idea of exactly what the laws of physics have to say about REALITY!!

 

[tomjasz]

Dearest Gonzo for you.

Father of goodness and love, hear our prayers for the sick members of our community and for all who are in need. Amid mental and physical suffering may they find consolation in your healing presence. Show your mercy as you close wounds, cure illness, make broken bodies whole and free downcast spirits. May these special people find lasting health and deliverance, and so join us in thanking you for all your gifts. We ask this through the Lord who healed those who believed. Amen.

 

[nicobie]

The good DoctorBozo really is a clown isn't he?

At times I find it hilarious reading what obviously stupid people write. This idiot doesn't even know how to use spell check (or he is always drunk, which would explain a lot).

 

[endlessplane]

Tell me, Jack, do you understand the difference between DIRECTLY DOWNWIND and TACKING?

Tell me, Gonzo, do you understand that the center of mass of the car can move DIRECTLY DOWNWIND while the propeller blades are TACKING? It's basic vector math, and can also be easily visualized:

[youtube]UGRFb8yNtBo[/youtube]

 

[fechter]

The good DoctorBozo really is a clown isn't he?

There are two kinds of people in this world; those that know they are clowns and those that don't know they are clowns.

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal labotomy.

 

[doctorGONZO]

The good DoctorBozo really is a clown isn't he?

There are two kinds of people in this world; those that know they are clowns and those that don't know they are clowns.

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal labotomy.

LOL!!! Im gonna bust a gut!!

Your real good at bitch insults. Typical for a juvenile, or someone older with a retarded mental age.

What's your calendar age? My guess is 13 or maybe 14.

 

[doctorGONZO]

Tell me, Jack, do you understand the difference between DIRECTLY DOWNWIND and TACKING?

Tell me, Gonzo, do you understand that the center of mass of the car can move DIRECTLY DOWNWIND while the propeller blades are TACKING? It's basic vector math, and can also be easily visualized:

[youtube]UGRFb8yNtBo[/youtube]

You are either totally confused or totally stupid.

The kar under scrutiny is said to have gained 1.0 windspeed under wind power and afterward accelerated to 2.5 by sucking energy out of the road.

Did you see it Jack? by sucking energy out of the road.

Tacking and its associated vector math has nothing to do with the halucinatory excursion past 1.0 to the said 2.5.

To spell it out for you, in terms your juvenile mental state might be able to get, yo kar is supposedly not powered by wind past 1.0, so it dont make any difference concerning tacking and vector math , about yo kar going past 1.0. And tacking and its vector math dont make any difference from 0.0 to 1.0, 'cause pure flat plate wind pressure is said to push it there, as said by your fellow joker munchkins.

You are either totally confused beyond belief, or, totally stupid beyond belief. Or maybe even a pathological liar bent on baiting me, and, keeping your scam going. That is within belief.

 

[doctorGONZO]

Dearest Gonzo for you.

Father of goodness and love, hear our prayers for the sick members of our community and for all who are in need. Amid mental and physical suffering may they find consolation in your healing presence. Show your mercy as you close wounds, cure illness, make broken bodies whole and free downcast spirits. May these special people find lasting health and deliverance, and so join us in thanking you for all your gifts. We ask this through the Lord who healed those who believed. Amen.

You are thanked, dear tomjasz, for your prayer, whether it is sincere or is a sham.

I have often prayed for all of mankind, asking Jesus to mightily help every one, agreeing with Jesus that not even one shall perish. So I have already been praying for you generically, through many years and too many prayers to count.

 

[doctorGONZO]

Anyone who is willing and able to make a careful and thorough analysis of da kar will find that a comparison of the wind energy available compared to the sum total of frictions dragging the thing back results in the thing being unable to even get to 1.0 windspeed. All of the papers and analyses presented here have failed to account for all of the frictions and therefore have been lyingly optimistic.

And similarly, if you blow some real strong weed and halucinate that da kar gets to 1.0 by majickes, you must then have to make another careful and thorough analysis of the energy available by somehow sucking energy out of the road versus the total of all the frictions dragging the kar back.

Sucking energy out of the road? Sucking energy out of the road without slowing the kar down, as observed by a roadside observer? Pure halucination!! The roadside observer must see the kar slow down as its kinetic energy is absorbed by the fixee chain linking the wheel to the fixed pitch prop. A legion of frictions will dissipate the kinetic energy before it ever reaches the prop. Then, the fixed pitch prop will be only be efficient at one specific RPM, or, kar speed, and will waste energy freely. Yo kar cannot possibly accelerate past 1.0. Yo kar cannot even possibly get to 1.0.

Unless it gets a little help from its friends.

If any of you munchkins are sincere, which is extremely doubtful, look up and carefully learn terminal velocity, aerodynamic drag coefficient, chain drive friction, propellor efficiency calculation, and then if you can get your grade school physics teacher to help you do the calcs, see for yourself that yo kar is a dud.

 

[tomjasz]

Absolutely sincere. Your anger keeps you from seeing the truth. You find the need to come back over and over and engage in a discussion that will never move forward. Your anger and vitriolic responses only disrupt your psyche. To bad. Such a waste.

 

[endlessplane]

Tell me, Jack, do you understand the difference between DIRECTLY DOWNWIND and TACKING?

Tell me, Gonzo, do you understand that the center of mass of the car can move DIRECTLY DOWNWIND while the propeller blades are TACKING? It's basic vector math, and can also be easily visualized:

[youtube]UGRFb8yNtBo[/youtube]

Tacking and its associated vector math has nothing to do with the halucinatory excursion past 1.0 to the said 2.5.

On the contrary. The vectors are basically the same as in tacking, and easily explain DDW speeds beyond 1.0WS (here for 1.5WS):

 

[endlessplane]

... if you can get your grade school physics teacher to help you do the calcs,...

MIT aerodynamics professor Mark Drela did the calcs.
http://aeroastro.mit.edu/faculty-research/faculty-list/mark-drela

Here his analysis:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/propulsion/28167d1231128492-ddwfttw-directly-downwind-faster-than-wind-ddw2.pdf

This confirms that the DDWFTTW condition V/W > 1 is achievable with a wheeled vehicle without too much difficulty.

Here some more comments:
http://makezine.com/2010/11/05/what-ive-learned-about-wind-carts/

Although DDWFTTW seems like it violates physics, it really does not. The various analyses show this, and the cart experiments on YouTube are definitive proof. In my view, the most closely controlled and unambiguous DDWFTTW demo is the cart climbing up the tilted treadmill. The main problem is then convincing some people that this is equivalent to DDWFFTW. But whoever tries to argue against that equivalence is really arguing against Galilean relativity, which is unassailable. So that secondary argument is a complete waste of time.

 

[doctorGONZO]

Absolutely sincere. Your anger keeps you from seeing the truth. You find the need to come back over and over and engage in a discussion that will never move forward. Your anger and vitriolic responses only disrupt your psyche. To bad. Such a waste.

"Such a waste."

Please explain.