Clarification on BMC/PUMA

recumbent said:
I cannot find the BMC 1,000 watt gearless motor on the Hi-powercycles website :?

Perhaps i'm not looking in the right place?

I'd love to find a geared hub that tops-out at 34mph with 48 volt LIFEPO4.

My understanding is that this is 1 of 2 hubs they got for testing. If you look at Hi-powercycles thread about the New BMC motor, they called it Black Lightning. I got mine from Ebay (Didn't win but winner backed out for some reason, so I got a 2nd chance offer).

By the way, this is not geared, its DD.
 
recumbent said:
OH and Leamcorp, your not going to go 35mph with a 48V set-up, the wind will hold you back.
Unless your talking freewheel speed off the ground test.

Perhaps not without aerodynamic benifits, but I know of a fared and socked Easy Racer that averaged over 35 mph with an Ecospeed drive system at last years ePower Challenge in Portland, Oregon.

Distance: 15 laps (29.7 miles),
time: 50 min,
30 sec., Avg.: 35.3 mph,
Max Speed: 42 mph,
energy used: 700 Wh,
Usage per mile: 24 Wh

2527490836_dec952d81c.jpg


For myself, I was in a different division and using a Crystalyte 406 hubmotor at 48v ridding my velomobile with a total ridding weight including myself of over 300 lbs If I'd had a 405 up and running, according to the ebikes.ca hubmotor simulator, I could have done about 37mph avg. I'll find out this May as I now have a 405 waiting for the 2009 ePower Challenge. Here are my specs from last year.

Distance: 12 laps (23.76 miles)
time: 45 min,
10 sec., Ave 31.1 mph,
Max Speed 34.2 mph,
energy used 335.7 Wh,
Usage per mile 14.12 Wh/

2655976560_1229930981.jpg
 
mi7d1 said:
Perhaps not without aerodynamic benifits, but I know of a fared and socked Easy Racer that averaged over 35 mph with an Ecospeed drive system at last years ePower Challenge in Portland, Oregon.

So sweet to see a cyclist going 40 mph with only a 48volt battery, thanks for the stats and pictures.

I have an Easyracer clone, and can go over 30mph with a little pedal power, this may not seem fast on paper but riding a bike this fast within traffic, it's fast indeed.
 
recumbent said:
mi7d1 said:
Perhaps not without aerodynamic benifits, but I know of a fared and socked Easy Racer that averaged over 35 mph with an Ecospeed drive system at last years ePower Challenge in Portland, Oregon.

So sweet to see a cyclist going 40 mph with only a 48volt battery, thanks for the stats and pictures.

I have an Easyracer clone, and can go over 30mph with a little pedal power, this may not seem fast on paper but riding a bike this fast within traffic, it's fast indeed.

I didn't realize that you LWB was a clone. Looks good! Here's one for you. Last September Sam Whittingham broke the record for the flying 200m at 82.33mph at the World Human Power Speed Challenge (WHSPC) in Battle Mountain, Nevada. Not a commuting vehicle by a long shot but it was something else to see him go. Here's a photo of the bike and a link to a video I took at the catch zone. He missed the record by .54mph but went on in the afternoon to set a new world's record.

(Apologies for hijacking the thread) I just wanted to show the importance of aerodynamics in the quest for speed.

http://www.vimeo.com/1946612

2866712893_d864f08bb4.jpg
 
I've receive the hub from Hi-Powercycles - it took 1 week from CA, so delivery time was good. I haven't done any indepth testing other than going for about 1/2 mile (too cold) ride and here's my initial impression.

Good news - the no load speed hit 58.8 mph. I was psyched.

Bad news - took a ride around the block and max speed I got was 26mph at 48v (55v fully charged) with 22-25amps drawn at full throttle.

So I didn't see 35+ mphs or even 30mph. The WE sensorless was even faster (and more torque) than this 1000w BMC motor :(

I'll do more testing when temp reaches 65's.
 
leamcorp said:
I've receive the hub from Hi-Powercycles - it took 1 week from CA, so delivery time was good. I haven't done any indepth testing other than going for about 1/2 mile (too cold) ride and here's my initial impression.

Good news - the no load speed hit 58.8 mph. I was psyched.

Bad news - took a ride around the block and max speed I got was 26mph at 48v (55v fully charged) with 22-25amps drawn at full throttle.

So I didn't see 35+ mphs or even 30mph. The WE sensorless was even faster (and more torque) than this 1000w BMC motor :(

I'll do more testing when temp reaches 65's.

Cool, it confirms that the product does exist even if their may be only a small number at present.

If you haven't said before can you specify:
* Your wheel size
* Maximum current your controller can output
* Bicycle type

- Tyre pressure and width, road surface, etc will all play a part of course. Do you have any secondary way of confirming your speed?

If you don't have a high current controller, you might need quite a long distance to hit full speed. For comparison, on my bafang hubmotor at 80V it will run at ~60kph no-load. On level ground it can hit 45-48kph. Down hill the motor will continue to provide assistance from at around 55kph, maybe a tad higher. The bike has 100psi 26" tires, is not recumbent, and current limited to 22A. On the downside it can't handle that performance thermally it seems :?

Oh, can you comment on acceleration, hill climbing, does the motor get hot, build quality?

Can we see pics?

I'll stop asking questions now, cheers!
 
voicecoils said:
Cool, it confirms that the product does exist even if their may be only a small number at present.

If you haven't said before can you specify:
* Your wheel size
* Maximum current your controller can output
* Bicycle type

- Tyre pressure and width, road surface, etc will all play a part of course. Do you have any secondary way of confirming your speed?

Bike = Specialized Rockhopper MTN
Wheel = 26"
Tire = 26/2.00/60psi
Controller - Infinion 48v 30amp
Battery - 48v 20ah Chinese lifepo4
Me - 195lb

I'm quite disappointed with the speed test. I'm going to try different tires (1.5 slick) and later, different controller (crystalyte analog 36-72 40amp) to see if it make a difference.

The torque is quite minimal - you have to pedal first for 1st 5-10mph then it takes off. In contrast, my previous WE or Bafang didn't have problem starting from stop. And top speed is about same as this motor. I'm not sure where Hi-powercycle got 35mph as it clearly didn't even reach 30.

The speed was taken from both Cateye and DB (+- 1mph). I could always try my garmin 705's from road bike but I don't trust GPS as much (not real time reading).
 
The only thing i can think of that is holding your speed back is:
a) Cold weather, if the batteries were also cold, this is strangling energy and perhaps your getting severe voltage sag.

b) The choice of motor windings, if you were getting almost 60mph no load free wheel, clearely the motor is wound for speed, and not powerfull enough to pull your 195 lb frame, 80 lbs of bike parts, and batteries.

I have the same battery power, and i also weigh 195 lbs, but use a "406 Clyte" on a 20" wheel, which I'm told is similar to a 408 on a 26" wheel, sort-of. I've got plenty of power, but only 28 mph.

You can help solve the speed and torque issue if you spoke the motor onto a 20" or 24" wheel, because of the gearing advantage, But this is only possible on a different bike frame, but it would definately fix the torque issue.

Geared motors have the best torque curve bar none, best feel, hill climbing, everything, except the slight noise when accelerating and the seasonal maintenance greasings.
Don't lose hope, it's just a wheel swap or frame swap. Hopefully.

BTW, changing the controler won''t help, save your money for better options.
 
I did notice that my battery was sagging fast. Typically they are 55v off the charger then quickly drop to 52v range. while riding, i've noticed that it went down to 44v range and stayed there for while. Typically i only see that on full throttle then bounce back quickly.

As for the controller - I was going to use the Crystalyte to run 60v to see if that will increase the top speed/torque to my liking.
 
leamcorp said:
voicecoils said:
The torque is quite minimal - you have to pedal first for 1st 5-10mph then it takes off. In contrast, my previous WE or Bafang didn't have problem starting from stop. And top speed is about same as this motor. I'm not sure where Hi-powercycle got 35mph as it clearly didn't even reach 30.

I also found the torque to be less as I have mentioned above. I have to pedal to get it going then throttle on at about 10 mph. I am running now with 36V (1s3p Bosch fatpacks + 30A 36-48V BMC controller) and still hit 29 mph top speed. But I weigh less-- (144 lbs + 45 lbs of bike). Enough for my flat, 20 mile roundtrip commute.

modular_power_system.JPG

Top speed with this setup:

typical_20mile_roundtrip_efficiency.JPG
 

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lcyclist said:
leamcorp said:
voicecoils said:
The torque is quite minimal - you have to pedal first for 1st 5-10mph then it takes off. In contrast, my previous WE or Bafang didn't have problem starting from stop. And top speed is about same as this motor. I'm not sure where Hi-powercycle got 35mph as it clearly didn't even reach 30.

I also found the torque to be less as I have mentioned above. I have to pedal to get it going then throttle on at about 10 mph. I am running now with 36V (1s3p Bosch fatpacks + 30A 36-48V BMC controller) and still hit 29 mph top speed. But I weigh less-- (144 lbs + 45 lbs of bike). Enough for my flat, 20 mile roundtrip commute.

View attachment 2

Top speed with this setup:



That's an interesting setup - could you please make a build thread with lots of close up pics? In the Photos section?
 
Hello Everybody,
Leamcorp, We will get you up to the speeds you expected, I PROMISE. If you are using only a 30A controller, that is the problem right there! In our testing, the Controllers used were putting out 60+ AMPS for extended periods of time! On your particular motor, when mated to 55.5v lipo speeds were over 42 MPH. WE test everything thoroughly with GPS, so I know the motor is capable of much more!
 
hi-powercycles said:
Hello Everybody,
Leamcorp, We will get you up to the speeds you expected, I PROMISE. If you are using only a 30A controller, that is the problem right there! In our testing, the Controllers used were putting out 60+ AMPS for extended periods of time! On your particular motor, when mated to 55.5v lipo speeds were over 42 MPH. WE test everything thoroughly with GPS, so I know the motor is capable of much more!

This is what I don't understand. You knew I was going to use Infinion 48v 30a controller to test this wheel. I also was going to test it on 36-72v Crystalyte that you sold me - which is only capable of 35amp. I was still under the impression that this was an efficient motor.

So now I need a new battery and contoller that is capable of 60amp to hit 35mph+ ???

What controller out there could do that without modification?

At that rate of output - I think you could push several wheels to hit 40mph.
 
hi-powercycles said:
If you are using only a 30A controller, that is the problem right there!

:? Actually 30 amps should be plenty, most ebikers use 20-35 amps and get us around with ample speed and power. But most are satisfied with 30mph, and didn't expect more either.

edit: I'm not implying that a 30 amp controler will get an ebike over 30 mph. Sorry for not being clear.
 
To hit 36 MPH, I don't know of a system that can do it at 44v under load and 30A max for acceleration. If you know of one, please let us know so we can start selling it! That would be of great interest to us. This particular motor will get nowhere near that speed on so few amps, it is wound for high speeds.

By the way, Leamcorp, How would we know you were going to buy the 1000W motor? We sold you the controller before you even bid on the 1000W motor... We are not to blame for selling you the 35A controller.

If you would like a brand new 40A Crystalyte Controller, We can upgrade you from your 35A controller to a 40A controller for FREE. Just send us back your 35A controller, and we will send you out a new one. This will work a lot better with the motor for sure... and we would be happy to help you out.

I am not saying you need 60+ Amps to get to 35+ MPH on 48V, I am just saying that when we tested these motors, our power meters were showing 62 Amps under acceleration on our demo controllers. Will it get there with 40A or so? Maybe, but not with 30. This is a fact.
 
hi-powercycles said:
To hit 36 MPH, I don't know of a system that can do it at 44v under load and 30A max for acceleration. If you know of one, please let us know so we can start selling it! That would be of great interest to us. This particular motor will get nowhere near that speed on so few amps, it is wound for high speeds.

By the way, Leamcorp, How would we know you were going to buy the 1000W motor? We sold you the controller before you even bid on the 1000W motor... We are not to blame for selling you the 35A controller.

If you would like a brand new 40A Crystalyte Controller, We can upgrade you from your 35A controller to a 40A controller for FREE. Just send us back your 35A controller, and we will send you out a new one. This will work a lot better with the motor for sure... and we would be happy to help you out.

I am not saying you need 60+ Amps to get to 35+ MPH on 48V, I am just saying that when we tested these motors, our power meters were showing 62 Amps under acceleration on our demo controllers. Will it get there with 40A or so? Maybe, but not with 30. This is a fact.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you here but things need to be set as your claim is out of bound.

I've contacted you last October to buy a controller that will work with BMC 400 or 600w. And I bought it shortly after that initial conversation. After the order, you said you don't have a working BMC controller and you are testing to see which one works best for 600w motor and will have something in couple of weeks. Okay, thats fine, I'll wait till you figure things out.

We'll I contacted you In January to see where my controller is and you didn't even know that you owe me a controller. I had to remind you over couple of email that you owe me a controller. Still no biggie.

At that point, you said you still don't have a good BMC controlller yet and still testing few controllers. At that point, I've decided to get the Crystalyte controller as I didn't want to get bogged down again with loss of your short term memory. And for your information - I do have a Crystalyste 40amp controller, which you sold to me at extra cost and at higher cost than if I just bought it elsewhere from the start. But I continue to have faith.

As for the motor - who would advertise a motor that it will run X miles per hour without telling people that you are running it with *****60amp controller*****. Why not just go and say it will go 100mph and its GPS verified at 51v. Only thing you forget to mention is that you have to use a 150amp+ controller.

Using you logic, lets do couple of examples using Ebike.ca's simulator,

1) 48v, 50amp, crystalyte 406 will give me - 38-39mph
2) 48v, 50amp, crystalyte 405 will give me - 47-48mph
3) 48v, 50amp, crystalyte 5303 will give me - 46-47mph.

Other than 5303 - I wouldn't consider 405 or 406 near 40mph motor and no one runs it like that (few may, not most). I can't imagine Justin at Ebike.ca advertising that his 405 will do 47-48mph - GPS verified. Funny thing is - you said 60v should be maximum for this motor. Last I heard, people were running 72v or even higher with their 40x hubs. So basically I've just paid double for what I could of gotten with 40x hubs using your logic.

The idea is to find a motor that is EFFICIENT at lower voltage and output. Not to buy a motor that needs and amperage that is not even normal in this crowd.

Even now, I took this as a life lesson and took it in stride. But to say you didn't know or make claim thats out of acceptable range, even for this crowd, is not cool.

Edit - by the way, my battery is 48v and runs at 52v nominal with 55.6v off the charger. So I'm not using 44v (what the hell is that - use 36, or 48v convention).
 
leamcorp said:
I've receive the hub from Hi-Powercycles - it took 1 week from CA, so delivery time was good. I haven't done any indepth testing other than going for about 1/2 mile (too cold) ride and here's my initial impression.

Good news - the no load speed hit 58.8 mph. I was psyched.

Bad news - took a ride around the block and max speed I got was 26mph at 48v (55v fully charged) with 22-25amps drawn at full throttle.

So I didn't see 35+ mphs or even 30mph. The WE sensorless was even faster (and more torque) than this 1000w BMC motor :(

I'll do more testing when temp reaches 65's.



It sounds like that motor belongs in a much smaller wheel. Morph999 is having a similar problem with a Forsen motor he purchased, it also has a high no-load speed compared to the actual on-road speed. In a smaller wheel the thrust will be better and the on-road speed will get closer to the no-load speed so power and efficiency will be higher. If you don't have or want a bike with 20" (or even 16" wheels) then you might consider selling it.

-R
 
Russell said:
leamcorp said:
I've receive the hub from Hi-Powercycles - it took 1 week from CA, so delivery time was good. I haven't done any indepth testing other than going for about 1/2 mile (too cold) ride and here's my initial impression.

Good news - the no load speed hit 58.8 mph. I was psyched.

Bad news - took a ride around the block and max speed I got was 26mph at 48v (55v fully charged) with 22-25amps drawn at full throttle.

So I didn't see 35+ mphs or even 30mph. The WE sensorless was even faster (and more torque) than this 1000w BMC motor :(

I'll do more testing when temp reaches 65's.



It sounds like that motor belongs in a much smaller wheel. Morph999 is having a similar problem with a Forsen motor he purchased, it also has a high no-load speed compared to the actual on-road speed. In a smaller wheel the thrust will be better and the on-road speed will get closer to the no-load speed so power and efficiency will be higher. If you don't have or want a bike with 20" (or even 16" wheels) then you might consider selling it.

-R

I think thats quite correct - it probably will work better for a smaller wheel (thought claim was for 26" wheel). Still, after thinking about what was said and looking at the size of the motor - I don't think its a robust nor highly efficient motor. They (BMC) probably used same outside casing to put it direct drive components, rather than their typical geared components. I guess you can't cheat laws of physics, no matter how much we try.

And for Hi-power, while disappointed that its not what it appear, I'm not discounting your effort. So we'll leave it at that. I've got some A123 cells coming for my new battery pack I've been building - I'll laugh at 60amp :)
 
I forgot - another important thing about this wheel - it does feel like it has a freewheel... to a degree. Its not quite Bafang or BMC Geared motor smooth but definitely smoother than a WE kit.
 
Leamcorp,
Please do not talk down to us like we are incompetent and trying to fool you. You can give us all the simulator stats in the world, and it wouldn't mean anything to us. They might be pretty close but they are not, nor ever will be exact performance parameters. We rigorously test all of our products on GPS in the "real world" with with both off road tires and on road tires. We then proceed to test on the flattest area possible usually with less than 1% grade over 1/4 mile. We do a two way average test to compensate for any variations in terrain on either side. Next, we do the same thing for 2 other motors as well. From here we take the average combined speeds from all these tests. This is the speed we post and advertise. (For the two demo units, we tested each individually and listed the speeds obtained with that particular motor).

I am sorry if I did not mention the amp draw of our controllers during our testing. I was not in any way trying to mislead you. We did however fully expect that anyone interested in purchasing a high speed motor would use it with a controller/battery system capable of delivering sufficient power. It is important to point out that our test controllers were 35A continuous pre-production controllers that from our testing were able to draw up to 60 amps in short spurts. These controllers were not even as powerful as the Crystalyte 48A digital controllers which are capable of delivering 60+ amps for even longer periods than our BMC test units. In light of this, it is not a fair assertion to say that this kind of controller was "out of the acceptable range, even for this crowd..."

As for your comment "what the hell is that - use 36, or 48v convention"-
As per your own words: "I did notice that my battery was sagging fast. Typically they are 55v off the charger then quickly drop to 52v range. while riding, i've noticed that it went down to 44v range and stayed there for while." Thus, 44v is your actual voltage output from your batteries under a full load.

The bottom line is, I feel bad if you feel like we mislead you- this was not our intention. We try to do all of our instrumented testing as accurately as possible. In the future we will be sure to document the voltage and amps needed to obtain a particular speed so this does not happen again. But I do not think it's fair to accuse us of lying about the capabilities of this motor, because we are not.

I hope you have fun with your A123 system, that sounds like just the ticket to wake your motor up :D Your bike should really fly... Happy E-biking! God Bless...
 
hi-powercycles said:
Leamcorp,
Please do not talk down to us like we are incompetent and trying to fool you. You can give us all the simulator stats in the world, and it wouldn't mean anything to us.

Sure it doesn't matter. Good luck with that!
 
might help clear up difference on the different bmc motors being sold
http://www.ebike.biz/bmchistory.htm
 
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