Commuter suggestion BBSHD vs MAC

[ymd]

Thanks for breaking it down for me. Looks like, based on your usage, a MAC would be more suitable for me.

if I want a bit of a workout, and not be changing gears all the time - I take my Mac10T commuter
if I am going offroad - I take my BBSHD
if I want to cruise fast, on or off road - Mxus 3k

 

[Chefkeith]

Just to clarify my BBSHD will easily do 37mph. I haven't had it faster then that, but I suspect it'll do 40.

Nothing against the Mac, just wanted to iterate that the BBSHD can be faster than 28.

 

[PRW]

I reckon you should take up the offer of trying them out - they feel very different. Where do you work?

 

[ymd]

I have sent out a PM. If I get the chance I will try them out and then place the order. I work for Varian Medical Systems, Palo Alto and commute from Fremont.

I reckon you should take up the offer of trying them out - they feel very different. Where do you work?

 

[PRW]

great - from your trip, I was wondering if you worked at Google... because that's where I ride to!

 

[Ykick]

Just to clarify my BBSHD will easily do 37mph. I haven't had it faster then that, but I suspect it'll do 40.

Nothing against the Mac, just wanted to iterate that the BBSHD can be faster than 28.

True, but the issue is how long can it do 37mph? No matter what "type" system you need about 1000W constant power to push most bicycles and riders 28-30mph, assuming no headwind.

Common BBSHD programming can deliver 1500W on full throttle or highest PAS setting which can reach 37mph.

Trouble is, BBSHD is rated 1000W CONTINUOUS 100% duty cycle. Pushing it with 1500W for long periods of time will mostly likely cause some damage. How much or in what area of the system is harder to say but BBSHD users should only use 1500W battery current intermittently for best reliability, IMO. Long extended runs and/or hill climbing best keep the wattage around 1000W or less....

 

[ScooterMan101]

A Mac 10 T would do just about anything, and be a sure bet, however since you say you want to go fast, the
8 T might be better, especially if you are going to have it in a 26 inch wheel.

You are going to get a 14 s battery ? if so then perhaps the 10T ( 14s battery packs have advantages )

The old Mac's could over heat and melt the solder at the Hall Sensors,
However
The new Mac ( 2016 and newer ) has a temperature sensor inside , that when you connect it to the newer C.A. the V 3.1 , the C.A. 3.1 has thermal cut off settings that let you program when to shut off the power to the motor. That way the system will shut down before any damage to the Motor, This is one of the main reasons I am still recommending the New Mac motor over a Mid-Drive.
Perhaps Paul/ one of his workers can set this all up for you ?

There is someone who put a newer Mac hub rear, on a Fat Bike and rode off road, up steep and down steep mountains from Canada to just north of Mexico.
I asked him which Mac he put on his bike, he was not sure since he bought two , one 10 t and one 12 T
I would not have thought it possible before he did that , that a hub motor could go up steep mountains for such a long trip and still be workable. I do not even know if he had the thermal cut off feature .

ScooterMan101, I very much appreciate all your very knowledgeable help to guide me in my decision. Thank you very much.
Would it be OK to go with the MAC 8T given that my commute does involve some climbing. Would I not be heating up the motor if I inadvertently push the throttle full at a high gear going up the Dumbarton bridge. I am just considering the worst case scenario. If the motor is safe even under worst case loads, then I will get the MAC 8T. Otherwise, would not MAC 10T a better choice?

 

[Chefkeith]

Just to clarify my BBSHD will easily do 37mph. I haven't had it faster then that, but I suspect it'll do 40.

Nothing against the Mac, just wanted to iterate that the BBSHD can be faster than 28.

True, but the issue is how long can it do 37mph? No matter what "type" system you need about 1000W constant power to push most bicycles and riders 28-30mph, assuming no headwind.

Common BBSHD programming can deliver 1500W on full throttle or highest PAS setting which can reach 37mph.

Trouble is, BBSHD is rated 1000W CONTINUOUS 100% duty cycle. Pushing it with 1500W for long periods of time will mostly likely cause some damage. How much or in what area of the system is harder to say but BBSHD users should only use 1500W battery current intermittently for best reliability, IMO. Long extended runs and/or hill climbing best keep the wattage around 1000W or less....

Very true, and good advice. Thanks for clarifying!

 

[ymd]

Thank you to "footloose" for allowing me to check out your wonderful bikes and your setup this weekend.

One of the bikes is mounted with a MAC motor and the other is mounted with a BBS02. The bike with MAC motor is setup to run only on throttle with no pedal assistance while the BBS02 has pedal assistance. Both setups look very nice.I tried both bikes around his neighborhood which is very hilly. Both bikes could easily handle steep slopes. As the bike with the BBS02 has peddle assistance, I liked its handling better than the one with MAC motor which has no pedal assistance. I think, with pedal assistance the MAC motor would have given me similar feeling. My guess is, I would be happy with either the MAC or BBSHD.

One thing I observed is that the BBS02 setup looked more "polished" as there is no external controller while the MAC setup has an external controller and will require more wiring. Otherwise, both setups seemed nice and clean. In fact, from a first look both of them looked much like any regular bike and were not heavy.

From all the discussions and seeing the setups of "footloose", I think I will be happy with either systems. In terms of long term reliability for daily long commute, I gather that MAC setup has some edge. Therefore, I am inclined to order a MAC 8T kit from Paul.

Thank you everyone for guiding me and helping me in researching my choices for an E-bike. I will come and post here again once I get the kit or if I have more questions.

 

[markz]

Why would you chose BBSHD over Cyclone?
For hills and long straight aways, why 1kw BBSHD, wouldnt 3kw Cyclone be the trick?

 

[tomjasz]

True, but the issue is how long can it do 37mph?

Which BBSHD can do 37MPH? Battery? None of the three I had, one left still riding, were that fast. Thanks! Interested to know which version software and battery.

 

[Ykick]

True, but the issue is how long can it do 37mph?

Which BBSHD can do 37MPH? Battery? None of the three I had, one left still riding, were that fast. Thanks! Interested to know which version software and battery.

37MPH might be a little optimistic but I didn't want to quibble over a couple MPH. Many of us doing this a while understand 1500-1600W using best gearing can provide honest 35MPH through calm air on paved flat terrain.

My BBSHD's all peak roughly +1500W running 52V battery packs. Although a speedo trick may be necessary for 35 MPH depending on the dash/display? My sustained Fatty cruise speed average roughly 28MPH through calm air, flat paved road pulling about 1000W battery power.

 

[tomjasz]

True, but the issue is how long can it do 37mph?

Which BBSHD can do 37MPH? Battery? None of the three I had, one left still riding, were that fast. Thanks! Interested to know which version software and battery.

37MPH might be a little optimistic but I didn't want to quibble over a couple MPH. Many of us doing this a while understand 1500-1600W using best gearing can provide honest 35MPH through calm air on paved flat terrain.

My BBSHD's all peak roughly +1500W running 52V battery packs. Although a speedo trick may be necessary for 35 MPH depending on the dash/display? My sustained Fatty cruise speed average roughly 28MPH through calm air, flat paved road pulling about 1000W battery power.

. I'm not trying to pin you down but buyers have a habit of finding these threads and from well respected sources and then expect 37MPH. IMO 32MPH with a 52V battery is more realiz=atic and with a 20Ah battery for the first few AH after which I'd expect some degradation in top speed. At least with the 3 I had and the one I kept on crank forward comfort bikes, that's been my experience. I'd rather reduce top speed and output for a more resilient build and longevity, but that's just my experience.

 

[Chefkeith]

True, but the issue is how long can it do 37mph?

Which BBSHD can do 37MPH? Battery? None of the three I had, one left still riding, were that fast. Thanks! Interested to know which version software and battery.

37MPH might be a little optimistic but I didn't want to quibble over a couple MPH. Many of us doing this a while understand 1500-1600W using best gearing can provide honest 35MPH through calm air on paved flat terrain.

My BBSHD's all peak roughly +1500W running 52V battery packs. Although a speedo trick may be necessary for 35 MPH depending on the dash/display? My sustained Fatty cruise speed average roughly 28MPH through calm air, flat paved road pulling about 1000W battery power.

. I'm not trying to pin you down but buyers have a habit of finding these threads and from well respected sources and then expect 37MPH. IMO 32MPH with a 52V battery is more realiz=atic and with a 20Ah battery for the first few AH after which I'd expect some degradation in top speed. At least with the 3 I had and the one I kept on crank forward comfort bikes, that's been my experience. I'd rather reduce top speed and output for a more resilient build and longevity, but that's just my experience.

You're right, I should have said top speed was 37 on my bike. My comment was misleading, and for that I apologize. I was mostly just refuting YMD saying the top speed of the BBSHD was 28.

I should not have given the impression that my bike averages those speeds.

Carry on!

 

[Ykick]

I'm not trying to pin you down but buyers have a habit of finding these threads and from well respected sources and then expect 37MPH. IMO 32MPH with a 52V battery is more realiz=atic and with a 20Ah battery for the first few AH after which I'd expect some degradation in top speed. At least with the 3 I had and the one I kept on crank forward comfort bikes, that's been my experience. I'd rather reduce top speed and output for a more resilient build and longevity, but that's just my experience.

Hope you enjoyed nit-picking as much as my iggy list....

 

[tomjasz]

I'm not trying to pin you down but buyers have a habit of finding these threads and from well respected sources and then expect 37MPH. IMO 32MPH with a 52V battery is more realiz=atic and with a 20Ah battery for the first few AH after which I'd expect some degradation in top speed. At least with the 3 I had and the one I kept on crank forward comfort bikes, that's been my experience. I'd rather reduce top speed and output for a more resilient build and longevity, but that's just my experience.

Hope you enjoyed nit-picking as much as my iggy list....

I could care less, but most n00bs will definitely nitpick. 5% is substantial for some. Again not nitpicking or poking at you, but in answering hundreds of BBSxx inquiries it's not nitpicking to those making the query. My responses weren't intended to be sarcastic, but yours isn't lost. Thanks.

 

[chas58]

From all the discussions and seeing the setups of "footloose", I think I will be happy with either systems. In terms of long term reliability for daily long commute, I gather that MAC setup has some edge. Therefore, I am inclined to order a MAC 8T kit from Paul.

Yep, the mac will suit you well. A bridge climb wouldn’t stress out the mac.
Both the hub and mid drive have basically the same low center of gravity. I don’t find the weight on the hub to be something I notice (unless I’m picking up the bike, or bunny hopping!).
FYI – unlike stated above, amps do not add any speed (they add torque). Voltage adds speed.

Mac specs at 36v (multiply by 1.39 for 50v):
6 turn high speed motor - 400rpm loaded at 36V; 6T - 45kph (28mph)
7 turn high speed motor- 350rpm loaded at 36V
8 turn standard motor - 320rpm loaded at 36V; 8T – 39kph (24mph)
10 turn torque motor - 255rpm loaded at 36V 32kph (20mph); 10T – 32kph (20mph) (STD KIT MOTOR)
12 turn low speed extra torque motor - 200rpm loaded at 36V; 12T – 25kph (15mph)

(FYI, I go 25miles @25mph on 9.5Ah battery, but I’m on a pretty efficient low current road bike.
As I recall, my mountain bike was good for about 20 miles on the same motor/battery)

Important for your design: Go to the ebike.ca simulator to verify your speed/range/etc. FYI, that motor/controller (8t or 10t) should not overheat unless you are using full throttle for long periods of time under 15mph.

Simulator shows the 10T cruising at 24.5mph with a range of 32miles (using 572 watts), and the 8T cruising at 29.1 mph with a range of 22 miles (using 925 watts). (that is what speed does to range and power))

Take a look at this power graph for your design:


Commuting:
I do like hub motors for commuting. I actually broke a chain on my hub motor bike, and just “coasted” many miles home on the motor only. Reliability wise, I can pedal, use the motor, or use both. That is the beauty of redundancy. It’s a good commuting setup (where serious hills are not an issue).

Personally, for me, tire flats are pretty rare, and usually occur with skinny tires getting pinch flats. I do have a slime filled tube on my mountain e-bike and managed to get a huge nail in the tire. Took me a couple of days before I realized the nail was in there. Nothing but a large nail or screw gets through a good tire, making flats a rarity.