Comparison between RC and ebike controllers?

[MitchJi]

Hi,

I have said it before and I will say it again, RC systems have their place with ebikes, but they are not suited to every situation.

I think that point has been consistently made and comes across quite clearly in this thread.

This is the first time I've seen a retailer object to their product being described as reliable and cost-effective. Given the above caveat (there must be a similar one applicable to all products in all applications), I don't see the remark as contentious.

I actually checked your profile location (England) to be sure that you should be expected to speak English fluently because your statement is a complete distortion, of any reasonable interpretation of anything Matt said :?

 

[Punx0r]

A couple comments ago he accused me of saying rc systems are the most reliable and cost effective way to go. I never said such a thing...

My understanding is that recumpence sells RC drive systems.

I have yet to meet a retailer that does not claim their produce (whatever it is) is reliable and cost-effective.

The particulars of the RC system and the application are unimportant, it's assumed they are appropriate. Some RC systems will be inappropriate for certain applications, those are obviously excluded from a statement where someone might claim them to be "reliable and cost-effective". As I said, such as statement will always be caveated in the manner already mentioned.

Please don't look for an argument where there is none.

 

[ferret]

A couple comments ago he accused me of saying rc systems are the most reliable and cost effective way to go. I never said such a thing...

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

A couple comments ago he accused me of saying rc systems are the most reliable and cost effective way to go. I never said such a thing...

My understanding is that recumpence sells RC drive systems.

I have yet to meet a retailer that does not claim their produce (whatever it is) is reliable and cost-effective.

Please don't look for an argument where there is none.

If you were not trying to start an argument you are clearly confused.

Saying that this "the most reliable and cost effective way to go. I never said such a thing..." means the same as "does not claim their produce (whatever it is) is reliable and cost-effective" is a complete distortion.

What he clearly meant and clearly stated is that RC systems (like all other systems) have strength's and weaknesses, and depending on someones particular needs, desires, priorities, and budget an RC system might or not might be the best way to go.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

A little more about sensored vs sensorless controllers here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=59965&p=902651#p902651

 

[Punx0r]

If you were not trying to start an argument you are clearly confused.

Nope. Not confused. Just trying to inject some sense of proportion into a situation that seemed to have suddenly become very aggressive and out-of-hand. I really shouldn't have bothered, I can only guess that I stumbled into an issue of past grievances and allies.

Despite your mild insults I refuse to be drawn on this. You know what they say about arguing on the intertubes...

 

[slbaker]

I recently designed a micro-controller circuit board for interfacing a Hall-effect throttle to an ESC.
This is the same function as a servo-tester circuit, but it has the advantages that
a) it is specifically designed for a Hall-effect throttle, and
b) the throttle response profile could be changed if needed.

http://www.instructables.com/id/EBike-Throttle-Control-of-an-RC-Motor-ECS

 

[windtrader]

Is this circuit designed to overcome all the huffing and puffing going on here about the zero start cogging often occurring when using a RC esc? If so, this might be the easy and cheap solution - the holy grail??

Would adding a CA to this circuit offer much more than just real time readout and limit setting beyond that what the rc esc can be set to manage?

 

[dirkdiggler]

Slbaker,
Is there a product there that you are planning on selling? The schematic is way over my head, but you obviously have it figured out.

My current understanding of PWM verses Hall effect has also led me to believe that PWM is a much better, more advanced system for throttle control. That leads to another question of why this isn't being used in ebikes. Cost?

Also, I understand everyone has their own opinion on things. As I see it there are advantages to both systems. If the positives of both were put together in one package, then you could tell me this is the best. I never find a product fits all needs. Yea a Lambo is a great car, but when you want to get groceries is it really the best car? Tone down the opinions.

 

[Hillhater]

dirkdiggler,
Slbaker is talking about processing the throttle signal to the controller .( a much debated issue also)
I think you are confusing Hall sensor based throttles ( vs resistive throttles) ,..and Hall sensor synchronisation between the motor and controller power pulses.
Ebike controllers are PWM already.

 

[ferret]

Since this thread is about comparing between RC and ebike controllers, I have to mention somthing that bothers me about ebike controllers.
They lack a feature that every RC controller has the "one touch setup", you put the controller in this mode, pull max throttle, and min throttle and the controller "learns" what input range to expect.
With ebike controllers, there can be a mismatch between the voltage range outputed by the throttle and the voltage range required by the controller.

Avner.

 

[slbaker]

To answer a few questions ..

>> about the zero start cogging often occurring when using a RC esc
No, this circuit does not affect the operation of the controller, it's just a throttle adapter. It could however be programmed to give a non-linear throttle response if that would be helpful.

>> slbaker is talking about processing the throttle signal to the controller
Yes, the prototype is programmed to work with a Hall throttle, but it could also be programmed to work with a resistive throttle.

>> Is there a product there that you are planning on selling?
Not really, but if there was some demand, I could make a few of them.

Scott

 

[tahustvedt]

Have you guys considered wire length? Battery wire length has to be kept short for an RC controller to last. They don't have large enough capacitors to handle much longer wires than they are delivered with. If the controller is able to limit the current draw (probably a rare feature?) and is installed with sensible wire lengths, they should cope just fine.

 

[yawstick]

I've asked this before somewhere else but never seen it addressed. I would like to hear from anyone that has used the Alien Power RC type ESC's that have sensor input.
How do they perform and would you buy again.

I've also wondered if it would be possible to use two drives.... a sensored one for low speed and a non sensored one of high speed. Obviously they cant both be driving at the same time... just wondered if it could be done without a lot of smoke.

 

[Hillhater]

I've asked this before somewhere else but never seen it addressed. I would like to hear from anyone that has used the Alien Power RC type ESC's that have sensor input.
How do they perform and would you buy again.

I've also wondered if it would be possible to use two drives.... a sensored one for low speed and a non sensored one of high speed. Obviously they cant both be driving at the same time... just wondered if it could be done without a lot of smoke.

Have you read this ..
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=44897&hilit=alien&start=600
And i assume you are aware that some RC controllers automatically switch from sensored control at low rpm , to unsensored control for higher rpm operation.
Look at the Castle Creations gear.

 

[windtrader]

And i assume you are aware that some RC controllers automatically switch from sensored control at low rpm , to unsensored control for higher rpm operation.
Look at the Castle Creations gear.

If this is the case, then nearly all the moaning about RC controller off the line and low speed stuttering would be a non-issue yet there are many posts on this issue, not just in this thread. Of course, this model of controller would need to be paired to a sensored motor.

It does not seem common to see lists of specifically paired rc controllers and rc motors that work well. If such a list exists, I'd love to check it out as it would eliminate a lot of FUD.

 

[yawstick]

I'm not aware of such controllers other than ones for RC cars with sensored motors. I'm primarily referring to 100 amp minimum HV types 44 volt. Although I'm seeing some of the RC types for up to 16s, but not sensored. Specifically I would like more information on and development of sensored rc type controller to be used on 6374, 8085, and 12080 motors that have had sensors added in 12s and or 16s. It would be nice too to see one of the esc manufacturers offer something of an open source software ESC with a lot more parameters that could be adjusted.

If you gonna dream might as well dream big

 

[Hillhater]

If you gonna dream might as well dream big

or... stop dreaming and do something about it !

Why dont you contact , and talk to, Bruno at Alien. ?
He is a member here and seems very keen to make his products.... ( RC controllers and motors ).. work on ebikes.
Several other ES members already use his controllers successfully.

 

[gwhy!1]

I'm not aware of such controllers other than ones for RC cars with sensored motors. I'm primarily referring to 100 amp minimum HV types 44 volt. Although I'm seeing some of the RC types for up to 16s, but not sensored. Specifically I would like more information on and development of sensored rc type controller to be used on 6374, 8085, and 12080 motors that have had sensors added in 12s and or 16s. It would be nice too to see one of the esc manufacturers offer something of an open source software ESC with a lot more parameters that could be adjusted.

If you gonna dream might as well dream big

I would willing test on of bruno sensored controllers on one of my bikes on a dyno, which run 6374's and 8085's , I dont know of anyone that is using one or how well it performs and its a bit of a gamble as they are expensive compared to a tried and tested hot-rodded 12fet.

 

[recumpence]

Bruno hangs out in the E-scooter/skateboard forum primarily. I know MANY guys with boards use his controllers. They are sort of the standard for E-board performance controllers. This is why he has a few twin motor controllers available because most high performance E-boards run twin motors.

I am already used to buying relatively expensive controllers. I really ought to get one of his high power controllers and try it out. I have one bike that was pulling 300 amps until I geared it down. Maybe an Alien 450 amp controller would be a good bet for that bike. :wink:

I have stayed with Castle Creations (for my sensor less RC systems) because I LOVE the programming on them. But, who knows, maybe Alien has good, or even better programming.....

I guess someone needs to find out.

Matt

 

[Hillhater]

This ES member... Kelvinscott76,.. seems to successfully run an Alien ESC on his high powered Ebike..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gKtMUTnjQo

 

[yawstick]

Why dont you contact , and talk to, Bruno at Alien. ?
He is a member here and seems very keen to make his products.... ( RC controllers and motors ).. work on ebikes.
Several other ES members already use his controllers successfully.

I have attempted to contact him via his website... It appears he was on vacation or something and only recently returned.
Still awaiting a reply

I guess someone needs to find out.
Matt

Matt you can try one of the big boys.... I would be inclined to try the 200 amp 16s sensored vsersion