There are a lot of low drag velos on the market that are 70 lbs and under and can handle high speeds for at least brief periods. Here's an example of one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkHV6JZvdDs
Granted, I would use larger brakes in something like this, and probably completely different wheels and tires. Having a body shell that has lots of crumple zone is not a priority. With just 30 lbs under 100 to work with, if I have to choose a small, low-power motor, it could still allow me perhaps 1 kWh of battery...
Were money no object, I could simply buy a WAW and use it as a base vehicle, and give it a 1kW peak motor/controller/charger setup with a 1 kWh battery... reinforce whatever parts I need to, and get very close to my goal while still being “legal.”
xenodius said:
If you're talking about 1-2lbs of foam, well, I understand that's ~200wh of battery.
Are you talking about the battery box, or something else? The 50 mph modded KMX trike I linked to earlier had 1332 Wh of battery(1.066 kWh to 80% discharge), which would be < 15 lbs of foam worst case by your description. That 50 mph KMX trike weighed 90 lbs. I'm sure I could find a few more pounds if needed, by compromising acceleration, perhaps?
But you're talking about 300 miles.
Yes. I will settle even for 200 miles flat ground at a slightly lower speed, say 25 mph. The exact same battery from that modded KMX typhoon would easily make this doable in a velo of sufficient efficiency(< 0.15 sq m CdA, 0.008 Crr) with the rider putting out like 120W and the electric motor putting out 100W(assuming 125W from battery). This is 5 Wh/mi from the battery, with the rider pedaling at 120W. 1/2 more lb of battery plus 1/2 lb more of foam put together adds 33 Wh for the cheapo HobbyKing LiPos, or another 6.6 miles range. Another 10 lbs material is 66 miles range at that speed.
There is a velomobile called the eWAW that has a model that can do 280 miles range and weighs about 86 lbs total. It's very well designed.
I haven't been more than 150 miles in a day by pedal power, but even just that left me with a sore posterior!
I know that feeling all too well from an unsuspended road bike. There is a certain amount of soreness I can tolerate. I just don't know what that is in a velomobile. I could exceed 100 miles a day on a road bike if I really wanted to(and get very worn out), and have done so within a 24 hour period(most of the time spent not riding, but the time riding spent at 15+ mph).
I'd definitely try to make it as comfortable as possible, if you're making this trip with any frequency.
2-3 times per year, maybe. Some trips to San Antonio as well, which is about 2/3 the way to Austin.
I recently experimented with AgiSoft photoscan to make a digital model of an ear mold for some DIY custom IEM's, made from the ashes of some expensive gift IEM's. It's cool software. Having used it, I now fully intend to have my wife take hundreds of pictures of my backside so I can make a very comfortable seat to upholster over.
How heavy does a seat need to be to be comfortable with no suspension? I know it will depend on a lot of variables...
Lebowski said:
Apparently the OP is not the only one:
http://mashable.com/2015/02/25/pedal-powered-electric-vehicle/
amberwolf said:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=52250&hilit=Raht
With all due respect, His Dudeness, and Wolf from Arizona, that thing is way too heavy, way too unaerodynamic, and from an efficiency perspective, a terrible design, as it can't be run on human-only power when desired. It's pedal system is more of a gimmick, than anything. My vehicle will be nothing like it at all, and is primarily going to be an HPV first and foremost, but with some ass-hauling capabilities or e-assist for hills when desired and if it can be budgeted into the weight.
The Raht Racer is nothing like what I have in mind. I'm thinking more of
this foam velomobile combined with
this 50 mph, 0-40 mph in 3 second, 1332 Wh battery, 90 lb electric trike combined with the sort of design principles found in
this 86 lb 280 mile range eWAW. Suspension and decent disk brakes are a must. That powerful twin-motor 50 mph KMX typhoon is 20x more powerful than I need to be to do 50 mph in a velo, but if I can work in power/battery of that sort while keeping a decent body shell and similar size battery pack with my imposed weight limit, I will gladly take it. A bodyshell can be done for well under 15 lbs, as long as you don't expect it to provide much of a crumple zone/protection(and even then, certain materials, if I get access to them, could solve the safety issue without compromising weight, too.).
Unlike the Typhoon's Infineon, I need a controller that gives good efficiency at the very low end of its usable power range(< 300W), and if I want fast acceleration, then it has to be capable of high peak power(> 10 kW). I will compromise acceleration if I need to, as even 750W-1kW of motor/controller in this thing would be plenty and allow 50 mph on the flat with aggressive pedal input with the right selection of sprocket sets.
dogman dan said:
Sorry I made an ASS of myself and ASSumed you had either DUI's or perhaps got caught street racing, and the cops would know you.
They probably know me pretty well. I've been pulled over more than 10 times from 2008 to 2013(mostly in one of my cars), and in all but 4 of them the police had no cause whatsoever. In 3 of those cases where they did have cause, it was very minor and debatable still whether I had broken any laws, and in one of those cases and where I was using one of my cars, the cops turned out not to be douchebags, miraculously. Another case where they had cause was when I was on my bike(described below). I had a valid Missouri license at those times.
I've even been pulled over on my pedal bikes on many occasions. In one of them, I slowed down to a stop sign to roughly walking speed from flying around at 30 mph in 90 degree heat with a good tail wind but sweating very profusely, I looked both ways as I slowed to walking speed, my feet touched the ground, and then I took off as fast as I could. I heard a car accelerating very loudly about a block from straight behind me speeding towards me. By the time I reached 25+ mph a block away, I see red and blue lights reflecting off of the ground in front of me and hear a car on my ass and decide to pull to the side of the road, thinking maybe the driver wants to pass. He didn't. The cop accused me of running a stop sign and forcibly locked me in the back of a police car for 30 minutes with the windows up, without my consent, but let me go. I felt like I came close to having a heat stroke. I don't know how they would have observed me “run” that stop sign, because they would have had to have been left or right of me to see me when I was at the stop sign. The speed limit was 30 mph, as well.
I've been threatened by them, unlawfully detained by them, and harassed by them for what amounts to a non-reason on too many occasions. I don't even think I am rude towards them or can think of a reason how I could be seen as such... but did eventually start to file complaints where appropriate as this continued.
I don't know why I get this treatment. I've never done anything to anyone to deserve that treatment(worse has happened to me by the police than was described in the above paragraph, but I'd rather not go into details on a public forum).
That being said, I break many laws(we all do, knowingly and unknowingly), but I always did so while unobserved and always without a victim. Never been nailed for something I did do. I have been harassed plenty of times without a valid reason though.
Now imagine if they actually had something of significance to legally hang me with. Even a normal, slow, upright, 25 mph BMX thumb-pedal ebike could prove problematic, so I may as well go all-out with something that meets my rapid transit needs anyway, but is technically legal.
I'm afraid of what I will do if they ever physically injure me in some future round of harassment, because I just might do something stupid. I would not put it past them, given my own personal experiences and those of some of my friends.
We do indeed get a lot of guys here just stripped of their license, who don't seem to get the concept, lay low and let the heat dissipate.
I get that concept of laying low very much(and lived it), and know this vehicle will attract attention by its own nature, hence the insistence on the vehicle being legal to the letter of the law, regardless of the intent of the law. But “laying low” on a normal bike has not stopped me from being pulled over. I am commonly mistaken for an adolescent, which on a normal, upright, 10-speed pedal bike, you'd think would add to the urban camouflage.
I'm not going to fly by at high speed unless the speed limit is permissive towards that, but even in a pedal-only velo, speeds of 35+ mph on flat paved surface are perfectly reachable in the right conditions for a limited time by an average person. In a court room, the physics simply couldn't be refuted. One record holder could do more than 40 mph in a Quest velomobile for an hour straight. The Varna Diablo III's rider Sam Whittingham reached 82.3 mph for a very brief period, the last time I checked. Both with no electric drive of any kind.
Re the 20mph, plus speed. The law means you weigh less than 100 pounds,( my 80 mile range bike weighs 130, without battery) and wont go more than 20 mph on the flat, unless you are pedaling. When you get to court, no judge is going to think activating a powerful 50 mph motor by the method of turning the pedals is legal. The law means the motor makes the bike go 20 mph. Not the motor makes you go as fast as you like if the switch for it is on the pedals.
No cop that sees you flying along at 40+ mph is going to think you are legal because your feet are moving. They won't understand your bike or give a shit, the cop will ticket and the judge will take one look at your bike and rule the ticket valid. They are cops and judges, the do the frock what they want right?
But that look like pedaling trick does work under 30 mph, sometimes even to 35. We call it clown pedaling, or faux pedaling. Look "normal" and clown pedaling can get you by fine. Cops do have better things to do that worry about bikes that look normal.
You're probably right about what the officer would think, but for me, following the law to the letter in the vehicle design is a "what if I get pulled over and sent to court?" sort of precaution. I don't intend to be pulled over and I will be quite careful how I use this thing. In a velo, the officer won't even be able to see me pedaling, but would immediately see the pedals when I stepped out if he inspected it(the electric motor/batteries/controller/charger will be as hidden from view as possible).
I don't think "clown pedaling" would help me much given that I've been pulled over while pedaling hard on a few occasions on both of my road bikes with no electric motor whatsoever.
I want a meaningful and usable amount of power that I generate to be used towards moving the vehicle, anyway. The pedals are more than a switch, as the vehicle will have an "electric off" mode, and won't go at all without pedaling unless pushed downhill. It is primarily and mostly going to be an HPV, but with some ass-hauling capabilities when conditions are suitable.
But look funny, and you get the the stare. Cop thinks, WTF is THAT?
I seem to get "the stare" from these goons just by existing. It's annoying. Goons gonna' goon.
The law in TX IMO, Does not prevent you from riding a very high power bike. Only top speed is specified Just set your CA to 20 when riding in the city in front of lots of cops. In the burbs, 30 mph and a sharp eye for city chotas should do fine. Out in the sticks, let er rip. Or if you have hills to climb, nothing wrong with climbing them at 20mph, which will take a lot of power.
Good advice. I was planning to ride it in this sort of manner anyway, except in areas where higher speed is an absolute necessity not to get run over. It is perfectly plausible that I could be on a 45 mph road in a velo at the speed limit without electric power at all, and it could honestly and fairly be argued in court. They would have to deny the laws of physics to argue otherwise. Being a strong rider helps.
If I can set up the drive system to where the vehicle won't move at all unless it is being pedaled, it should be a pretty safe defense, *if* the court lawfully follows procedure and doesn't make s*** up.
There is no shortage of roads where I'm afraid to take my road bike due to traffic, but where a pedal-only velo would more than suit my needs for these roads. Most of my local travels are on flat ground with very few hills, although getting to Austin will introduce a number of hills, of which this vehicle will need e-assist to do any reasonable(20+ mph) speed at all for extended periods. There will be times where I won't need electric assist at all to do the speed I want as well, like downhills and good tail winds. A head wind is combated by dropping it a few mph to save the battery charge on longer trips.
RE actual speed, down hill, or even just downwind, of course the bike can legally go faster than 20 mph, just as any bike can coast 50 mph down hills. And you can pedal up more speed past 20 mph too. It's just hard work to add much more than 2 mph once running 20 mph on a 100 pound bike.
When I first started riding a bike with any regularity at all in 2008(Schwinn Traveller, at least once every week at the start of my riding), I could only top out at 25 mph, and sustain only 12-13 mph for 30 minutes or more without getting tired. At that time, each 1 mph after 20 mph was indeed much harder to obtain. I wanted more and started riding as much as I could.
Skip forward about 12 months.
By 2009, I was doing 27 mph on the Schwinn with a backpack fully stuffed with 20-30 lbs of groceries before the road got too bumpy and I got too uncomfortable and didn't pedal any faster, coasting back down to what was a steady pace of 20-21 measured on a Cateye Velo 5. At that point, each mph over 20 wasn't difficult at all to achieve. That steel Schwinn was not light at all, at least 30 lbs.
That's what 4,000 miles of riding recorded on the odometer within 12 months will allow you to do. I tried to ride as fast as possible most of the time, compensating for the distance of each trip, pacing myself accordingly. I saw each stop sign as an opportunity to improve my leg strength by pedaling as hard as I could. After about 6 months of riding regularly, I wore my V-brakes out about once every 2 weeks because of this habit. My knees are still good, too(surprisingly, as when I started riding, I was using too low a cadence and should expect damage).
Each 1 mile ride to work back in 2008 and onward with no stops and some minor hills was paced. I watched my maintained speed over that mile go from 15 mph to 16 mph to 20 mph to 24 mph in a matter of months at a time. I watched my top speed on my favorite testing street after work go from 25 mph, to 27 mph, to 29 mph, to 31 mph in that same period when no wind could be felt. I was riding for 90% of my local(< 10 mile) transport needs and avoiding the use of my car. I would try to set a new personal record on routes each time that I decided to haul ass.
I am somewhat more fit than that today, but by how much is difficult to quantify accurately. A velomobile, with no electric assist, could get me pulled over just the same as my non-motored road bikes have...
Each mph after 20 of max top speed is relatively easy for me on a road bike. It's each mph after 30 that gets harder. No electric motor whatsoever. I'm sure an aerodynamic enclosed vehicle will alter this point upward significantly.
This is why setting your CA to limit speed to 30 can fly. Just don't be seen going up the hills at 30.
I think keeping 22-25 max on hills in the cities/towns would be a good choice...
Chalo said:
I have combed through the Texas law as written, looking for all its implications. I think what the OP is suggesting is legal, and a judge would have to be making stuff up that isn't there to find that it's not legal.
I'm not suggesting that you could necessarily avoid having a courtroom fight to prove it-- but remember the law isn't about interpreting intent; it's about what's written down and not more than that. It is legal to have an unlimited-speed e-bike in Texas as long as it's limited to 20 mph when not using the pedals, and as long as it doesn't exceed 100 pounds.
That's what I was thinking. I expect to get f***** with, will try to avoid it, but I want the vehicle to truly be legal to the letter if/when it happens.
The catch, especially for a big boy like me, is that you can't do all that much with 100 pounds. You could choose to do an impressive 1/4 mile ET with a drag bike, or a fast flying mile with a streamlined HPV, but then the thing would have to go back on the charger.
As battery/motor/controller tech improves, this limit becomes far less restrictive. How much do you think I could get a “glider” trike that can safely handle 50 mph downhill to weigh? I'm concerned in this instance with just frame, tires, wheels, suspension, steering, seat, and the parts needed to pedal it forward and stop it. That will determine how I engineer the body, select the motor, controller, drive system, ect, and what kind of maximum power/torque I can hope to have. I am looking at this thing as a complete system... and thousands of possible configurations are flashing through my head, but have little concrete base points to start with.
I will be able to narrow my plausible options down if I get that KMX Thunderbolt and can take measurements.
A 100 pound e-bike for the street is just not going to outdo a modded moped, and it won't have as much endurance as the gas in one of those silly little moped tanks.
This is where I disagree. Even only 5 lbs of difference in battery weight in a velomobile is hugely significant to its range, especially when pedal power is accounting for one-third or more of the vehicle's horsepower at speed. Theoretically, needing 300W to do 30 mph, and pedaling with 100W, extends your range at that speed by 50%. Splitting it 50/50 doubles range at that speed on a given battery.
The eWAW velomobile, as an example, has a base model with a 80 miles range, where adding only 13 lbs of battery for a more upscale model increases that to 280 mile range. The 280 mile range eWAW only weighs 86 lbs.
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2012/10/electric-velomobiles.html
Is that enough spare weight to add stronger torque arms, dropouts, chassis rigidity, wheels, and tires? Maybe it has those things already... as it is the state of the art.
I'm looking at this concept of mine from a systems-oriented perspective, kind of how Paul MacReady did with the GM Impact or his pedal/solar hybrid airplane(but without MacReady's type of budget or level of knowledge). I have to choose my components very wisely. A Cromotor or Mid Monster may be much too heavy, and maybe I should look into a BBSO2 or something to save weight/cost over such a big b**** at the expense of raw power(but still allowing high top speed on the flat), or maybe try something else altogether. Those AstroFlight 3320 motors look tempting(5 lbs each! 15 hp!), and I need to do more research on how to make each component work for this design or if it's even possible. Continuous horsepower and torque versus rpm matters greatly, as well, as I don't want to destroy components on hills.
<20MPH if it has a motor on it (even if you're not using it, since it's not defined whether or not the motor is in use, just that it must be operated at less than 20MPH). 
forget it. But here, 99% of cops would ignore you. When I go to TX or AZ, I know for a fact traffic cops are actually doing their jobs.
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