CroBorg Super Commuter

striker54 said:
Alan, what are the dimensions of the 3 internal spaces in the frame?

I'm planning building a ebike with that frame and using the 6s turnigy multistar.

Hi striker54,

The Greyborg Warp frame has 2 internal spaces intended for battery storage (the third is intended for the Controller and other accessories). HAL9000v2.0 (one of the Greyborg principles) provides the dimensions:

What are the dimensions of the battery chambers?

300x105x150mm each. This is the dimension of maximal "brick" that fit into, actual size is bigger, but only for wires, cables etc.
 

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Thanks for posting the dimensions.

I'm sure I posted them earlier in this thread as well, though they may vary slightly over time as the frame is improved.

The lower section is just about perfect for the Sabvoton, The upper rear section was designed for a Kelly controller, but it will hold an 18 FET Xie Chang, or a 24 FET barely will fit (I had to trim mine slightly to make it fit).

The trick to battery fitting is to find packs that multiples will fit into the space. I had great plans for about 24 bricks of the 6S Turnigy packs, but there was a lot more space needed for support material and wiring than I had estimated, so I fit 12 bricks and this filled the top forward section and half filled the bottom. Now that I've moved them, the Sabvoton is in the bottom, 8 bricks are in the top forward section (and lots of wires) and the remaining four are in the controller space. It would be easy to get two more 6S packs into the controller space for 6P, but getting 4 more into the forward section would be quite a challenge. It might require much thinner support material (perhaps thin aluminum), and very agressive wire minimization.

It looks to me like the new Multistar 6S packs are not a good fit. There would be a lot of wasted space and very few 6S 16AH packs would fit. Perhaps some combinations can be found, but for a 4" by 6" by 12" space you want packs that are multiples of 2". Maybe take them apart and work with cells, but that's a lot of effort.

update - the 8AH packs are a possible fit.
 
I completed another sinewave powered commute today, the first half in early morning thick fog. Trip energy consumption has been slightly reduced, likely due to a combination of softer acceleration and slightly lower average speed (though top speed is slightly higher than I was limiting to before). With the precise speed control I find it is easier to use lower speed more easily and comfortably.

For example, climbing the 15% (controller blowing) grade before I would use max power, set to about 4-5KW. Now, with better control, I find that 3kw is about right to accelerate nicely up the steep hill, and almost certainly more efficiently. I can twist up to 6 (and program up to 12), but it is not necessary.

Better control means many things. It depends how this control is used, of course. It is up to you, the pilot. The way it should be. :)
 
For example, climbing the 15% (controller blowing) grade before I would use max power, set to about 4-5KW. Now, with better control, I find that 3kw is about right to accelerate nicely up the steep hill, and almost certainly more efficiently. I can twist up to 6 (and program up to 12), but it is not necessary.
This is a HUGE reduction in power - 25-40%. It seems this would be the defacto goto controller design with this much advantage. Why is there not a herd stomping on the vendors of these controllers?
 
I'm seeing approximately 10% savings in overall trip energy. I believe this comes from being able to modulate the speed easily, comfortably, precisely and this resulting in lower average speed. Perhaps also from significantly more regen being provided by the slip regen feature. But it could be ridden harder and result in less efficient travel, also. So it isn't a guaranteed savings.

Last night I placed the thermal probe of the bar mounted display into the phase wiring and used mylar tape to anchor it there. So we'll get a readout of the temperature rise in the phase wires. While I was doing that I reviewed the battery space. At the moment, in the forward battery area, there isn't enough height left for a third layer of 4 more packs on top of the 12 already in place, however there are 3 layers of coroplast (plastic cardboard). If those were removed and replaced with a thinner layer (say tape over aluminum) there would be adequate space for another battery layer. The volume of wires would not allow a full layer, but a half layer of three packs could be fitted. This would add 6 pounds and raise the 72V pack from 20 to 25 amp hours. This would be an excellent improvement. It would require reworking the wiring harness to provide the additional connectors. Perhaps a project for the winter. For now, ride. :)
 
Today I rode harder, and essentially consumed the usual amount of energy on the inbound trip. The temperature readout on the phase wires was about 4 degrees C above the ambient, so no important heat rise there at all.

So, the phase wires are not getting hot and we can consume more energy if we try to.

We'll see on the homeward trip if the phase wires heat up more.
 
On today's home ride I again pushed and the energy used was essentially the same as with the other controller. I think the average speed is a bit higher, but the changes are within the natural variation in the ride. At this point I would say that the smoothness and precision of the control easily allows riding more efficiently, but you don't have to. :)

The phase wire temperature did rise about 15 degrees above ambient with about 5KW applied for the time it takes to climb the big hill. Substantially more than the rise on the less steep work bound direction, but still minor. This clears the way to raise the phase current limit, at least from that standpoint.

The next issue when raising the phase current will be keeping the front end down early in the acceleration process. :shock:
 
Do you leave the lab at the gate near the botanical gardens? Why not cruise down to the swimming pools and grab the stats from there to the top at Grizzly. Just really curious about speed and watts and heat. I could not get past the Hall of Science without fear of burning up the mac. It was limited to 2k as well. I figured 3k would give me enough, maybe a bit slow but fast enough to not feel like a snail.

That grade is a killer. When you let off the throttle it is like you hit a wall and speed spirals down to a near standstill. That was the first indication that you can throw a lot of added power and really not get much improvement in speed up the hill.

Thanks
 
I use the higher gate when I can, below the Hall of Science. On occasion I have to use the lower gate. 3.5K glides up the hill, 6K flies up. From my office to Grizzly used 1.5 amp hours today, figure 72V. From the pool it would be about double.

I can come from Kaiser near MacArthur through town to the stadium above the campus, up the grade, over the hill, down into the park, up to Inspiration point, and down to SP Dam Road, and back to El Sobrante on about 15 amp hours, it's been awhile so I don't have the precise numbers handy. They are likely listed in this thread.

The hill is a big energy absorber, I do get some back in regen.

Today I watched the amp-hour indicator go backwards during regen, I don't usually see that.

Today I pushed up the hill moderately and watched the phase wires at the controller rise about 10C, a bit less than yesterday. When I've checked the motor at the top it wasn't very hot, but it takes awhile for the heat to work its way out and I don't stop long enough for that there.

Speedwise on this hill with this motor and controller you can pick whatever you want from 0-25+. Compare to the nine continents I had before, if I don't pedal the 9C doesn't go very fast and would probably overheat before the top. With good pedaling it does about 15 and heats less. The motor torque is just about the same as the load from the hill so it cancels out the hill and you pedal almost like on flat ground. But if you don't pedal you don't go very fast.

The Mac motor is much smaller and has a less conductive path to get heat out, so it is at risk of overheating on a hill like this one (about 15%) if it goes on very long. I was recommended to stick to 1.5K max on my similar gearmotor on the eBikeE. I've used it on this hill at 1K and it needs some pedal assist to get up but does go up fairly well with pedaling.
 
Thanks for the details. Provides much needed insight to know what is needed to build something that can offer good performance over some very tough terrain on a regular basis.

If this trip was an occasional weekend ride I'd be less concerned about the sizing of the dive system but doing the trip on a regular basis and keeping things reliable is a much higher standard. It needs to run well below the max in the mid range to hold up over the long haul.

Your trip description brings to light the exponential increase of power use as speed increases particularly on a steep grade. 15 mph is a reasonable pace for the typical "high power" hub. Doing it at 20 will start melting things but you need double or triple the power to do it 20 to 25. Only the most exotic ebike builds need apply. :p
 
Climbing this hill is hard on controllers and motors, as well as taking about 20% of the trip energy in a couple of minutes (which is why it is hard on motors and controllers). The Cromotor handles it easily. The trick is to have enough torque to get out of the "stall" zone where heat kills. The simulator at ebikes.ca can be used to model this gradient and you can see the problems with overheating. You should compare your own experiments with the simulations to see how it calibrates for you. I was looking at a small geared hubmotor build and it doesn't look like that will work well here, probably overheat unless you pedal like crazy.
 
Fuel Emergency

Isn't that what they declare when a plane gets low on fuel when flying? So this morning I'm getting ready to take off and I notice the voltage is 69.3 instead of 75.0 during the preflight check. I put the bike on charge last night, the BMSBattery 400W charger's LEDs seem to indicate it is done charging. I connect it back up, nothing. I hook up the 200W BMSBattery charger and it starts charging. But it is time to leave, and 200W is too slow to do much in a reasonable time.

So do I drive the car? It is a bit late, traffic is going to be bad, and there is a meeting at work choking up the parking worse than usual. That's going to be a mess.

To top it off the GoPro battery is low. Swap that one out, and set out in "Fuel Emergency" mode. Lower speed to mostly under 20mph, pedal a lot. Don't reset the Cycle Analyst so I can see the total AH since the last full charge. The homeward trip took 8AH of the 20AH pack, so theoretically 12AH is left. The trip to work generally takes about 12AH, but I don't really want to take this kilobuck battery pack anywhere near zero. Slow down, pedal more. The motorcycle jacket and kevlar jeans are a bit much for this warm morning. Unzip, pedal, rest, try to stay cool, keep the speed down, use that precise throttle control.

So how much charge did we get from the charger before it quit? Hard to know, would be good to plot voltages vs charge vs temperature. They vary enough from one brand or type to another that standard curves don't work well, they need to be calibrated. Good thing to do, haven't bothered.

Still I passed a few miles of cars stuck in traffic, even going only 18. I let lots of cars pass me on the uphills, but I focus on staying efficient. Will I have enough. Redo estimates in my head over and over, pedal more, keep the speed down. Last time this happened I had to push the bike up the last few hills, not fun. Stop, take a drink of water. Gently accelerate off and pedal. I can pedal into the slip regen, but the speed gets low quickly and the effort is more than my legs are good for beyond a short distance, and regen isn't that efficient a way to charge the batteries. Control the throttle to avoid the regen except on downhills, keep speed low and smooth.

Finally. Reached the top, mostly downhill from here, 15% in places. 16.2AH of 20AH so far. Will get another 0.1AH or so back from regen on the hill before reaching the work destination.

At the office now, 16.1AH total, half going home (mainly downhill), half coming in to work (slow and pedaling to help). New record on this ebike, about 40WH/mile for this 26 mile "trip". Should have pumped the tires up tight, would have gained even more. But we made it! Fun to have an adventure to start the day, and it took me less time than driving, sitting in traffic, parking way out and walking to my office. :)

I'm going to have to get more of the Meanwell LED power supplies for home (same as I have at work). At 12 amps they charge quickly and just don't have the reliability problems of the cheap chargers. Charging at a Kilowatt also gets the job done quicker without stressing anything (0.6C rate).

The control of the new Sabvoton sine wave controller really helped out here. I used that smooth and precise control to maintain the speed without jerky wasteful acceleration, and it was a lot easier on the throttle wrist.

Ride safe.
 
Glad you made it. 40wh/mi? That seems a lot. What is your average speed on the dam road? Your trip is longer but the terrain along the dam road is pretty mild so wondering why so much draw on the battery? I know if you back off just a few miles an hour up the grade the energy use is much lower. I got 32 wh/m going over to the west side. 9 mile trip using 5.46 amps at 48v, 286 watt hours. Round trip 18 miles: 9.77 amps, 507 watt hours, 28 wh/m.
 
The Moped tires take a lot of energy, my usual consumption is up to about 60 WH/mile at 27 over hill and dale (inbound to-work trip with more but gentler climbing). :)

This is quite different from my mountain bike, or my recumbent. Each operates in a different energy efficiency regime.

Today's 40 WH/mi is at about 18 mph over the same course, with a lot of pedaling at the 200W level. Most of the reduction in energy usage was from the lowered speed. Pedaling energy was about 10% of the total. The energy increase from going faster is about 50%. Going faster saves about 15 minutes from the 45 minute (at 18) trip.

I do notice an improvement when I increase tire pressure. I haven't checked it in a while, it is probably down somewhat. I generally run 35-40 psi max. Let's check the ratings:

Michelin Gazelle 2.50-17 front 36 psi rated

Michelin Gazelle 3.00-17 rear 41 psi rated

I should try to run those pressures, they are probably a bit down from that now.

On the to-work commute there is a good climb from the start up along the dam by the lake, then it is fairly mild up and down along the lake (about 5 miles). Once turning away from the lake it is a mild climb all the way to Inspiration point (a couple miles), then mild mostly slightly down to the golf course, a good climb and moderate descent then one more good climb to the top. Then moderate and steep descents to the destination for another mile plus, 13 plus miles total. But you probably know all that.

Running more flexible and higher pressure tires on the bike would increase efficiency, but would also make it more prone to flats and rapid tire wearout. I was getting about 3000 miles per rear tire with the Lyen 24 FET controller, it accelerates pretty hard and wears the rear tire quickly. I wonder how long a standard mountain bike tire would last with that thrust/weight ratio. :)

The front tires last much longer, I haven't replaced one and am now nearing the halfway point on the second rear tire. These Gazelles seem to be fairly soft rubber, the tread is thick (4 pounds rubber per tire) and seems to grip fairly well and wear fairly fast. There are not too many tire choices for 17" Moped rims. Motorcycle tires are much heavier yet, so we try to stick with moped/scooter types. So far we have not suffered any glass cut flats, pinch flats, only sharp nails have been able to penetrate the thick rubber.
 
Alan B said:
Fuel Emergency

Isn't that what they declare when a plane gets low on fuel when flying?
Hi Alan,

It's only an Emergency if it happens in Class B airspace. :lol: But glad you made it to work okay!

Alan B said:
But it is time to leave, and 200W is too slow to do much in a reasonable time.
So (as good pilots do), you can do a quick calc in you head. Given a 40 wh/mi energy budget and a 200w charge rate, home charging for you is equivalent to about 5 mph. So if you slow down more than that from your normal commuting pace, your decision to ride instead of charge is likely correct. But those 2 extra bricks of LiPo you've been thinking about are looking pretty good today! 8)

Alan B said:
I'm going to have to get more of the Meanwell LED power supplies for home (same as I have at work).
Have you seen the new Meanwell HLG-600 power supply? It's IP67 / IP65 rated, and 600 watts of power make for a sweet 15 mph on-board charger... I recall you're running 18S, so it's max voltage of 56.7v might not get it done, but still that is one sweet little power supply right there! :mrgreen:

Cheers, and have a good flight home, Captain!
Holocene
 

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The Cromoped does suck electrons. Even pulling 40 wh at 18 seems pretty high. I was under thirty with an average over 20mph. 40+ on the downhills both sides got the average back up. Must be the combination of weight of bike plus rider weight and friction from the larger tires as well as increased consumption from the inertial load most don't even mention when spinning up much heavier tires/wheels.
 
I can't consider it much of an emergency when it is discovered before the trip, and can always pedal or push through, but Sudden Range Anxiety is a problem. :)

I have heard about those big new powerful 600W Meanwell LED supplies. My present at-work Kilowatt charging setup uses three of the 320W units, one for each 25V 6S section. Three of the 600W units would work great but they'd likely trip a breaker. :)

Actually three of them, each with separate 15A power cord could be connected to one 20A 120V circuit and stay within the 80% rule on continuous loads, but there better not be much else on that circuit - or you'll get to know the breaker on a first name basis...

There isn't a lot of room for an onboard charger on the Borg with the battery/controller setup I have. Just for fun I recently reviewed the Meanwell LED supplies that have constant voltage and current limit from 150W to 600W for volumetric power capacity. The winner is the 240 watt model at 6 watts per cubic inch, the rest are more than 10% lower power density. Three of the 240W units (for 18S) would be about 10x5x3 inches, still tough to find space for onboard. These supplies are also not light, being potted for wet environments and continuous duty. They are excellent chargers with easily accessible adjustments for voltage and current, and they have been very reliable from my experience. They don't have a cutoff feature, so one does have to either add that externally, or disconnect them after the charging current has dropped off.

The 240 watt models are also at a good price point, lower than the 320W units (per unit power), but the 600W units are, per-watt a little cheaper yet. Still, three of the 240 watt units would produce about 75 volts at 10 amps for my 18S system, though I might set them for 8-9 amps for a bit more margin. I run the 320's at 12 amps instead of the 13.33 they are rated. After the home run the 240's would charge the CroBorg in about an hour, at least most of the way. I would probably either put a timer on them or build an auto-shutoff to avoid having it sit cooking too long. Limit to 3 hours or below 100mA whichever occurs first, and monitor the voltage, tripping right away if it ever exceeds 25.2V per 6S group (I charge to 25.0V which is 4.167/cell).

So it depends how fast you want to charge, how much space and weight you can tolerate, and how much power you have versus how much you want to spend. If you have 220V to power it from the 600W units would not be hard to power three of. Of course if your system voltage is lower one might get by with a single supply. Another option is to use 36V supplies for 18S, then only two are required. Two of the 600W 36V supplies would make a very nice 1200W charger for 18S! However I like the charger per 6S approach, it allows me to handle 12S and 18S packs with the same setup, just using 2 of the 3 supplies for the 12S systems. Each supply handles one 6S bank.

A heavier bike, with full suspension, heavier tires and rims, etc will take more energy to move. The Borg weighs a bit over 100 pounds (rear wheel, motor, rim, spokes and tube/tire are 35 pounds, batteries are 24 pounds, it adds up). I'm almost 200 so that doesn't help. My wearable gear (helmet, jacket, clothing, boots) probably weighs another 20 or so. I try to keep the gear in the cantilevered trunk on the light side, they are known to fail before their load ratings, so under 10 pounds including my lunch, the trunk and mount. Quite a lot of copper under the hood, the fairly heavy sinewave controller, plus front forks, brakes, tire, rim, and a few lights and the bike bell and lightweight air horn. :)

The frame is pretty light, as are the side covers. The two speed crank is heavier than usual but not that significant. The GoPro is a few ounces, the chain a bunch more.

Whatever the weight, it IS WORTH it. After riding the hard tail mountain bike one feels a bit beat up on these roads, but the Borg soaks them up, raises the comfortable speed, and doesn't care if a pedal touches down occasionally, or a pothole tries to grab the tire (or some gravel sneaks underwheel). It just glides along and powers right through.

Some other comparisons:

A quick search for Zero Motorcycle energy consumption, grabbed one quote, just for a comparison:

From http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3106.0 :

Phone App says average watt hours per mile is 125 over 2900 miles on a 2013 11.4 S.
Paved, fairly flat, 200# rider with a commute that averages 42mph.

So that is about double the energy consumption at less than double the speed (compared to 60WH/mi at 27). That's with a heavier machine, etc. I see numbers from 80-150 WH/mi on that discussion, depending primarily on speed.

The Tesla takes about 333 watt-hours per mile according to this yearlong 15k mile data: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1090685_life-with-tesla-model-s-one-year-and-15000-miles-later

From an investment point of view the Borg is a winner, at about 1/3 the cost of most electric motorcycles it is an excellent performer, programmable for motorcycle like performance, stability and comfort at the lower to mid speeds. Of course if you want a dirt bike or freeway speeds the Zero is the type of solution you need, but if you want to ebike to work the CroBorgSVN (Cromotor GreyBorg Warp Sabvoton combo) is a very reliable and comfortable commuter ticket.
 
PowergateLLC

Received a phonecall from the power supply vendor this morning. They note that I bought three supplies in 2012 and three more now, and wondered if I needed a quantity discount. :)

So three of the 240's are inbound for the at-home 0.7KW charger. Good power density and pricing.

The BMSBattery 200W appears to be working, which is amazing considering I used it for a long time, until one day I connected it wrong. The fuse popped, and I replaced it, otherwise it seems to be fine.

Ordered a new rear tire and tubes. Don't need it quite yet, but these tires sometimes go out of stock for a month or more between manufacturing runs, so I need to get ahead on the replacement. This one will probably last a bit longer due to the softer takeoffs with the sinewave controller.

Yesterday pushed the system on the way home. Tested 6KW peak up the 15% grade reaching 29, 36 on the downhill and 34 on the flats. A bit slower than the trapezoidal controller, but plenty of speed for a bicycle. :)
 
Photo-Op Today

XBD201410-01205.jpg


Copyright 2010 The Regents of the University of California, through Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory

This is for a little interest piece they are doing on my e-bike at work. I used a bike helmet for this (required on the site), but normally I use a more substantial DOT helmet (AGV Blade) for commuting.
 
The Meanwell LED supplies arrived yesterday. PowergateLLC is quick!

UL Listed, 5 year warranty, adjustable voltage and current, fairly small, fully potted for moisture/vibration. They are about 3 pounds each, I have three of them, one for each 6S bank. Would be great to mount on the bike, but do I really want to add 10 pounds?

I'll set them up off-bike for now. The BMSBattery 200W is working at the moment, but it takes a long time to charge.
 
Hi Alan,

Rather than wade back through nearly 800 posts trying to tally your build cost for what you ride at this point, maybe a list of components and cost would be useful. I looked in the starting post and did not find your solution but the initial requirements. Good place to put it rather than buried deep.

This what I gleaned from the greyborg site:

Details on what you receive in the Frame Set:
1. Warp series frame + swing arm
2. High quality automotive grade UV resistant plastic canopies
3. Two Sets of chain rings, a 31t with trouser guard and a 34t without guard
4. ATS 1:1.65 speed drive with crank arms, licensed by Schlumpf, frame is already milled for installation
5. A bare Cromotor V2 Hubmotor for lacing into the wheel of your choice with necessary bolts and custom made C washers

Frame set + bare motor , $1745 + shipping
Frame set, no motor $1195

Accessories:
Add a Cycle Analyst V3 $140
Half Twist throttle w/button $20
240mm DNM Burner RCP2 rear shock with 650lb spring $225 and proper width reducers
DNM USD-8 8″ travel fork with dual disc mount and dual disc hub $555
Tektro Auriga Twin dual caliper w/ 2x 203mm hydraulic disc brakes with eBrake cut out switch $235
Tektro Auriga rear brake 2/ 203mm with 2000mm hose and eBrake cut out switch $125

battery stuff another 1200?
controller $300?
wheels $300?

about 4800-5000 seem in the ballpark?
 
Yes, you are quite close. The Sabvoton controller is a bit more, as is the Magura throttle. Plus a few other items like headset bearings, chain, freewheel, crank arms, pedals, stainless steel hardware of various sizes, chain tensioner, kickstand, lights, kill switch, bike bell, bike air horn, GoPro & mount, mirror, rear rack, rack bag, seat, seatpost, handlebars, tiewraps, tires, tubes, chargers, wire and cable, heatshrink, tape, connectors, a number of special tools that I made and many standard tools purchased. I haven't added mine up but 6K is probably close. The shipping on mine was much higher for a one-off before they had a US dealer. I've bought four controllers for the Borg by now, and two sets of batteries so the cost slowly rises as it gets perfected and maintained. I probably should sell a few controllers. :)

But, accelerating briskly up a 15% grade - Priceless. :twisted:
 
Reconfigured Charger

Here is the reconfigured Kilowatt charger setup with separate meters on each 25V supply and the connectors dovetailed together into a 2x3 block for one-plug charging (really two with AC plug):

20141021_105227.jpg


The ebae panel meters are not as closely matched as the supplies are, but they are plenty good enough for this purpose.
 
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