Current Cycles Prototype Buildlog...

[Whiplash]

Well, I am waiting on an answer from a fellow forum member tomorrow, if he is going to take my offer on some Lipo batts.

I was just thinking about the geared motors and I just saw a video of one working and I could not believe my eyes when I saw that is worked almost exactly like the planetary gears inside just about every automatic transmission for cars! I hve been in the auto racing buiz for a long time and this type of drive is EASILY strengthened over 100% stronger by simply running MORE planet gears, so instead of three like they all seem to have, you could easily make a new hub and carry 4 or 5 slightly smaller gears to take some load off the teeth on the planets which seem to be the weak link. I would also venture to say, you could find a gear from a different motor that is smaller and adapt it you your current config. if you were lucky enough to have a larger motor structure. The RC hobby market might also have transmission gears that could be utilized.
I basically wrote off the geared motors for the simple fact that I did not want them to strip out, but if you did something like this, I have to believe they would offer HUGE increases in torque (probably more than 100% more than even the torquiest non geared) as you could design a geared hub motor that was large like the NON geared style to add space enough for a good 1000+ watt capable electric and still have room for the gear set to take the abuse! Has anybody heard of something like this? I just went for my first real off road MTB ride up in the San Jacinto MTZ and I had a Blast even though I was only going like 15MPH! If I could find a motor that would have the ability to climb at slow speeds and yet still be able to do like 30MPH on the street for commuting it would be a dream motor don't you think??

 

[torker]

Yeah that is where a motor running through the gears would shine. I just love the simplicity of a hub.

 

[Whiplash]

NOno, I mean the planetary geared hub motors....if built right they would be killer for off road use! The biggest challenge I see is getting the top speed to still be as high as the non geared motors... Is there a such thing as a controller that could switch the voltage as the wheel RPM increased? You know use a higher amp lower volt for takeoff and off road then switch to a higher voltage and maybe lower Amp output for high speed commuting use??..

 

[torker]

Yea I knew you were talking about geared hub motors. I would like to try one next. I think some of the newer ones have better gears, not nylon but some other composite that hold up better. There have been some posts on that. I just meant that for low and high speed operation a motor running through the bikes gearing would climb like a goat in low gear AND be fast in high gear. But not near as simple as a hub setup. I haven't even messed with the programing on my Infineon controller yet. So I am pretty much a newbe still. Have you started fab work on the frame yet?

 

[Whiplash]

I want to wait for the motor to show up first, I really don't think the fab will take too long, that is the part I actually know how to do! LOL! I am really interested to see how much torque the motor I ordered will make, it might be fine, but I am worried about going slow and burning it up on the trails more than anything, but I guess with the suspension, I should be able to go faster than my current MTB can go even downhill! I just LOVE the idea of being able to go really far into the trails without DYING pedaling, I went about 6 miles in yesterday and it took a while to get out there, but coming back was all downhill and was a BLAST! I figure the E-bike will be fun both ways! I am really impressed with the OptiBike, and the geared crank hub it has, I wonder if there is any way to convert a standard geared hub motor into one of those?? Possibly put the pedals on where the axles come out? Or change the axle out completely for a custom crank hub shaft??!!

 

[torker]

Wow, I can't picture that but you got the modeling skills on the computer. That is how innovations happen. Draw it out and try it. I am really happy with the slower wind 9c I got. It never complains at slow speeds. It only does 20 mph. right now but I figure with some tweaking of the controller and a few more volts it'll really wake up.

 

[Whiplash]

See, thats kind of what I was thinking of trying, is some sort of switch to go from say, 36 volts for the slow stuff with a ton of AH and then flip the switch and it changes some of the pack to series that WAS in parallel or something to get the volts to go fast! The problem is I don't know if there is a controller that can do that... Anybody have any input? Would it work to use a really slow wound motor for torque down low with lots of amps @ say 36V and then go to 72 or something for the road commute where the amps are not as important as the volts to get you to 30-40MPH? I am worried about going too slow with my voltage always @ 72 unless it does not matter??

 

[torker]

Depends on the motor. A slow wind will run much cooler at slow speeds it seems. Dogman is finding that out. Running 72 volts at half throttle on a motor like that should be no problem. Some of the electrical gurus will have to chime in.

 

[GrayKard]

Well, I am waiting on an answer from a fellow forum member tomorrow, if he is going to take my offer on some Lipo batts.

I was just thinking about the geared motors and I just saw a video of one working and I could not believe my eyes when I saw that is worked almost exactly like the planetary gears inside just about every automatic transmission for cars! I hve been in the auto racing buiz for a long time and this type of drive is EASILY strengthened over 100% stronger by simply running MORE planet gears, so instead of three like they all seem to have, you could easily make a new hub and carry 4 or 5 slightly smaller gears to take some load off the teeth on the planets which seem to be the weak link. I would also venture to say, you could find a gear from a different motor that is smaller and adapt it you your current config. if you were lucky enough to have a larger motor structure. The RC hobby market might also have transmission gears that could be utilized.

Well now that is a very cool idea. Go with smaller gears and more of them to relieve stress on the teeth. It might be a PITA to do it with my motors as them have a different setup. They have two planetary gears stacked together in three sets so that they could go with a smaller ring gear.


Borrowed the pic from this thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13998&hilit=cute&start=72

I basically wrote off the geared motors for the simple fact that I did not want them to strip out, but if you did something like this, I have to believe they would offer HUGE increases in torque (probably more than 100% more than even the torquiest non geared) as you could design a geared hub motor that was large like the NON geared style to add space enough for a good 1000+ watt capable electric and still have room for the gear set to take the abuse! Has anybody heard of something like this? I just went for my first real off road MTB ride up in the San Jacinto MTZ and I had a Blast even though I was only going like 15MPH! If I could find a motor that would have the ability to climb at slow speeds and yet still be able to do like 30MPH on the street for commuting it would be a dream motor don't you think??

That last sentence is pretty much what I'm trying to achieve. I have the first part, now I just need to get more speed. I'm going to try Delta/Wye switching and I should have a top speed of just over 30mph when I'm done.

That way I can cruise as slow as I want over rough terrain in Wye mode, but still be able to keep up with most surface street traffic in Delta. I have most all the parts I need now so I just have to make a tool to open the motors.

 

[Whiplash]

Could you elaborate on the Delta/Wye switching thing? What is it and how would my 1000 watt non geared hub motor be wired from the factory? And could I benefit with more torque down low by changing over to this?

 

[GrayKard]

Could you elaborate on the Delta/Wye switching thing? What is it and how would my 1000 watt non geared hub motor be wired from the factory? And could I benefit with more torque down low by changing over to this?

Well let me answer your last question first: No. Every hub motor that has been checked that I know of is terminated in the Wye (also know as Star) configuration. Wye gives you more torque per volt and the amp draw tapers off quickly as it gets to speed.

If you were to switch it exclusively to Delta (bad idea) it would have 1.73 times less torque but more top end by the same ratio. It would also draws way too many amps on takeoff to be used all the time. For more torque you will need to get more amps to your motor in Wye mode.

Here's the thread where I learned all about this stuff: ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION Video DELTA / WYE With 9 continent

Doctorbass always has interesting and informative threads. Let me see if I can summarize it although reading that thread a couple times will get you there too. Now so far the only hub motor this does not work on is the Xlyte series as it has some kind of overlapping winding that doesn't work in Delta right.

OK, what you do is open up the hub and find where the phase wires connect to the windings. Each wire will hook to the end of one set of windings and the other end of the windings will all be soldered together. You have to unsolder this three winding junction and then take a multimeter and find the pairs.

You then add phase wires to the three new ends keeping them marked so you know two things. What phase color they are and if they are the start or end of that winding. You now have to get all six phase wires out of the hub which is the tricky part. That's why people have been using the teflon coated wire. It's smaller for a given gauge and it's slippery.

Once you have the wires out then you have to hook them up to some kind of switch or relay so that you can choose between Wye and Delta for different speeds/conditions. It's safest to use a 3pDt relay or switch as this will make it almost impossible to short the windings.

If you use a relay you could have a remote switch on the handlebars to change modes. If you use a switch only you can still have it on the handlebars although you would need to run heavy gauge wire to it as a lot of amps would be going through it.

So here's what happens: You start in Wye on takeoff, you reach the speed where your acceleration is starting to taper off, and you switch to Delta. You get another burst of speed and apparently the power band is broader and lasts all the way to near your new top speed. I'm really anxious to try this.

I hope I haven't made any major errors here but I'm sure I've left out lots of helpful and necessary info.

I think with your Conhismotor you would be better off with more volts and amps. This mod is really best for a slow wind motor.

Gary

 

[Whiplash]

Thanks! I was hoping to find my motor in delta so I could slow it down and give it more torque! We will see unless you know of someone who has tried it, but either way, I can make it FASTER at least with my current 48 volts! That might be all the speed I need for my commute if I am lucky and that equals SMALLER BATTERY! Or more AH

 

[Whiplash]

I can't believe it ITS HERE ALREADY! 9 DAYS!! from payment to my house!

So far it looks to be in good shape, I hope to bench test it tomorrow with my lead acids I have for my other two E toys, but it seems like its in good shape.
I will say it does not look anything like the motor in the pictures, actually it looks EXACTLY like the Golden Motors I have seen!
It does have the watts stamped in it and weighs in at a good 18.8lbs for the whole rear wheel assy. which seems a bit more than most say, I have seen around 15??

Here is a video of the unwrapping of the soon to be beast, and I will continue with build videos so you beginner guys like me can learn from my hopefully FEW mistakes!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA3HNyuGJqI

I hope to have this installed on my Schwinn Protocol 1.0 (Chromoly rear suspension) this weekend ready to start the battery install as soon as they show up for testing purposes....

It is going to take me a bit to get the $$ together for the custom chassis build as I want to use quality parts like Rock Shox ($500) and their rear Air Shox too ($250+) and all the little bits will add up as well. In the mean time I can be learning about the batteries and charging them and such, as well as getting used to the speed of this motor in stock form, hell I might not even need to over volt it, but I am sure I will...!!

 

[Whiplash]

Got a bit done, I got the throttle mounted, the gears adjusted and the tire swapped out because the one that came with the kit was a joke! I have ridden it around the yard and everything mechanical seems good to go, the tire is centered perfectly! I am really happy thus far and will be ready for the batteries when they show up! I am going out to get some brackets to hold the controller under the seat instead of the current zip ties! More soon!

 

[Whiplash]

Here is the Bench test @ 53V hot off the charger with 4 12V SLA's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl1QfmtSoIY

 

[Whiplash]

Well, I had an incident with the derailleur today while test riding the bike non electrified, I tried to shift into the lowest gear on the gear set in the rear and when it engaged, the derailleur ground against the cover scratching the hell out of it! DAM!! I was doing soo good! Oh well, I touched it up with a sharpie pen and it looks OK from 5 feet away.... I have since adjusted the derailleur to not allow shifting into the lowest gear, but that is gonna suck in the trails, but I figure, I will never hardly use it now that I have the motor installed, I will be going much faster hopefully! I am in the process of painting my controller the same as the frame so its as stealthy as possible and I will put up some pics. If you see anything I am doing wrong let me know!

Oh yeah, I also took a good two FEET out of the hall and phase wires so I didn't have to wrap them around the frame, soldered, shrink tubed each wire, then elec. taped the whole bunch and shrink tubed that around the whole assy. so its nice and clean and water tight! Now they just come out of the motor and go straight into the controller in front of the tire, the shortest I can make them unless I mounted the controller on a rear rack, but I just can't stand the look of those things!

Just for sh!ts, is there any noticeable advantage to growing the phase wires to say 10 gauge once they are out of the motor, or does that only really help if you go inside the motor and make them bigger all the way? I really only want to do this if it will give me more power or increase range noticeably, and with my little 30A controller, I doubt it....

 

[Whiplash]

OK I opened up the controller and found that the Caps are rated at 63V, what is a safe voltage for me to run this controller to? I am hoping to go to a 55.5V LiPo pack because that would make it an easy addition to my existing LiPo pack, I would basically be able to just add one more 11.1 pack to each side of the parallel assembly. Do you think this is safe for me to do? I would hate to burn this controller out, because once I am done testing on this bike I will use it for my Wife's soon to be E-bike, so keep me safe!
Thanks!!

 

[BikeFanatic]

I run my controllers with 63 V caps on 15 series Lipo- but I only charge to 4.1 V per cell or 61.5 hot off the charger.
I also connect the battery and go , so the batts do not sit at 61.5 volts for very long. I also run these controllers with the PING that comes off the charger at 60 Volts, then drops to 53-54 vols. Just my experience, can not say that my controller is the same as yours, though the case looks the same. you are taking a chance.

 

[Whiplash]

Fair enough, it looks like it is a decent piece, I will try it....

Here is the bike ready for the batteries to get here! I can't wait to try it!! I painted the controller to match the bike, but the color came out a bit off, it still stealthifies it a bit more though! I will re-paint it later when I find the right color...It IS closer to the eye than the camera shows, really pretty close...

 

[Whiplash]

Here is a pic of the controller apart, it looks pretty decent...? OK at 60 ish volts?

 

[Drunkskunk]

I run mine at 55.5v Lipo. thats 63 volts fully charged. 63 volt caps seem to handle 63 volts pretty well for me.
The bike looks good.

 

[Whiplash]

OK that's what I was looking for! Sounds like a plan, so when I charge these, I should have about 63 volts hot right? I was trying to figure out how much over the packs rated value they usually hold.....SOOO how low should I let these packs go as a whole, safely, since I don't have all my little monitoring stuff yet..?

OH and thanks for the compliment! I am trying to make it look good too...

 

[Ykick]

OK that's what I was looking for! Sounds like a plan, so when I charge these, I should have about 63 volts hot right? I was trying to figure out how much over the packs rated value they usually hold.....SOOO how low should I let these packs go as a whole, safely, since I don't have all my little monitoring stuff yet..?

OH and thanks for the compliment! I am trying to make it look good too...

Good looking bike, well done!

I only charge to around 4.15V/cell so I start hot about 62.25V. 15S Lipo's with cell monitors I try to remain above 48V. That's around 3.2V/cell and the bitch is that cells become very unbalanced as they near empty. They will hit empty so FAST it's EXTREMELY probable you'll have weaker cells drop below minimum voltage specifications. Without cell monitors I'd be careful letting a 15S pack drop much below 50V and only then if I were convinced the packs were in excellent balance to start with.

 

[Whiplash]

Yeah, for now I am going to use a balancing charger for RC, my brother already has it and I will use it just to get by for now, so they will be balanced....Thanks!

 

[Whiplash]

Well, I decided to not push this controller too hard and go with an additional 2 packs of 7.4V on on each side of the parallel, to equal 51.8 nom and 57ish hot. I think this will be a nice pack for now and I may try the delta/wye setup soon... I just want to try it! I would be on it right now if it was not for the dam USPS and their never leaving anything at the door, I truely think he did not even get out of the truck, just stuck the tag in the box cuz he was too lazy to carry it to my door, now I have to drive to the PO and pick it up tomorrow AM...loosers.