CYC PHOTON

[steve s]

Hey, that's great - glad it's working out and in use.

I think, white not absolutely needed, the brake cutoffs are good to have for safety, especially for returning riders. I have cutoffs on my loaner bike. There have been some pretty serious injuries from unexpected launches.

I don't have brake cutoffs or a throttle and have found for me they are absolutely not necessary. The photon pedal assist cuts off perfectly when you stop pedaling.

 

[dmcd]

Hey, that's great - glad it's working out and in use.

I think, while not absolutely needed, the brake cutoffs are good to have for safety, especially for returning riders. I have cutoffs on my loaner bike. There have been some pretty serious injuries from unexpected launches.

I don't have brake cutoffs or a throttle and have found for me they are absolutely not necessary. The photon pedal assist cuts off perfectly when you stop pedaling.

OK, thank you both. That confirms what I thought...It also confirms my decision to not install the throttle as well

 

[Mongo]

OK, thank you both. That confirms what I thought...It also confirms my decision to not install the throttle as well

In case you've not seen them, CYC does offer 4, 2, and 1-connector harnesses, potentially making the wiring bundle up at the bars a little neater. I used the 2-connector version on this bike.

 

[mdodgethomas]

IMO one way in which the stock Photon is inferior to some others is the bar-mounted control - I find the vertical CYC control it much more difficult to operate by feel alone than the flatter type.

This afternoon it occurred to me to put a small self-adhesive silicone "bumper" on the UP side of the UP/DOWN switch.

What a difference!

I can now accurately position my thumb without looking at the control!

 

[Mongo]

Motor thoughts follow, as we go into winter of 2023-2024:

• Some more CYC Photon parts availability has surfaced, at Johnny Nerd-out - motor cores and controllers, and a "short block". Photon parts pricing is, so far, in the same solar system as the Bafang BBS parts.
• I'm wondering if CYC's rumored Proton will appear in the next few months.
• Toseven motor availability seems strained here in the U.S. - other than California Ebike with DM01 pre-orders (with a "who knows" shipping date), who else is there?

 

[hindesite]

Motor thoughts follow, as we go into winter of 2023-2024:

• Some more CYC Photon parts availability has surfaced, at Johnny Nerd-out - motor cores and controllers, and a "short block". Photon parts pricing is, so far, in the same solar system as the Bafang BBS parts.

That's cause for some optimism that CYC may come to their senses and realise that if they don't want to remain a niche player (being the sole service point for warranties, service and repairs without an established dealer network in place just cannot scale for high volume production) they either need to get community and third parties behind their product - which worked for Bafang so well initially - or relax their attitude to service and parts for their customers. And anyone who has paid the premium for this product obviously thought it was worth taking a bet on this.

Also, the parts shown seem OK in terms of pricing, in general. A service manual would be helpful.

• I'm wondering if CYC's rumored Proton will appear in the next few months.

I hope not. There is so much work to be done supporting their existing products. New stuff is glitzy, but the boring hard work is making it scale and building out support. Photon is a superb product that hits so many design criteria, but let down by some design details, reliability, service, parts and documentation.

• Toseven motor availability seems strained here in the U.S. - other than California Ebike with DM01 pre-orders (with a "who knows" shipping date), who else is there?

Seems like that could be an alternative, but I don't think Toseven went far enough. They don't seem to have addressed the chainline problem that Bafang and Tongshen had, and so is a non-starter for me.

 

[smitty2k1]

That's cause for some optimism that CYC may come to their senses and realise that if they don't want to remain a niche player (being the sole service point for warranties, service and repairs without an established dealer network in place just cannot scale for high volume production) they either need to get community and third parties behind their product - which worked for Bafang so well initially - or relax their attitude to service and parts for their customers. And anyone who has paid the premium for this product obviously thought it was worth taking a bet on this.

Also, the parts shown seem OK in terms of pricing, in general. A service manual would be helpful.

I hope not. There is so much work to be done supporting their existing products. New stuff is glitzy, but the boring hard work is making it scale and building out support. Photon is a superb product that hits so many design criteria, but let down by some design details, reliability, service, parts and documentation.

Seems like that could be an alternative, but I don't think Toseven went far enough. They don't seem to have addressed the chainline problem that Bafang and Tongshen had, and so is a non-starter for me.

According to the Toseven documentation linked from the California Ebike page the chainline on a 68mm bottom bracket is 50 mm. That's the same as the Photon, no?

 

[Mongo]

According to the Toseven documentation linked from the California Ebike page the chainline on a 68mm bottom bracket is 50 mm. That's the same as the Photon, no?

It's very close (the CYC Photon is 50.2 with the recommended spacer layout, or a best-case 47.2mm on a 68mm BB), and comparatively good. IMO what the Toseven currently lacks (AFAIK) is 1.) a variety of tooth counts, 2. no wide-narrow cuts. Maybe Lekkie will jump in - maybe not. The two Toseven rings do have integrated cuff guards, which is nice - having suffered some cuff chomps with my Luna BBS chainrings.

Toseven will never have anything down in CYC's 34T tooth count/chainline ballpark.

No matter though, as long as Toseven is in maybeware mode (in some markets?). Toseven seems to have removed the throttle option from the DM02 - wonder what's up there, if that's the case.

 

[hindesite]

According to the Toseven documentation linked from the California Ebike page the chainline on a 68mm bottom bracket is 50 mm. That's the same as the Photon, no?

The issue is actually a combination of chainline, gear case size and chainring size. To accommodate the last two factors, often the chainline has to be compromised. AFAIK Photon is the only compact and easily available "chainless" system that will fit modern 1x MTBs, because CYC specifically addressed that issue with their design. The Photon can use 34t chainrings at the correct chainline, Bafang and Tongshen cannot.

 

[Tomblarom]

Hey! Might be old news, but CYC is VESC and here are the sources: CYC-MOTOR - Overview

 

[SammySamm]

Hey! Might be old news, but CYC is VESC and here are the sources: CYC-MOTOR - Overview

Thats right Kim...But CYC uses the VESC tools legally, not like the gentlemen of “Innotrace GmbH”in Villingen.

 

[mdumdei]

So, can that be compiled into the stock Photon firmware? I used to modify the TSDZ2 firmware, rebuild it, and flash it. I'd like to be able to customize the Photon.

So I scanned the code and from what I can see it appears to be the case. Where do you get the interface (hardware) to do the flash? I had a serial adapter for the TSDZ2. I see many instances of where people have updated the Photon firmware but no how-tos. Can someone point me in the right direction?

Also the TSDZ2 had firmware for the display and firmware for the motor itself. Is this the same? Being lazy - easier to ask than research.

 

[hindesite]

So, can that be compiled into the stock Photon firmware? I used to modify the TSDZ2 firmware, rebuild it, and flash it. I'd like to be able to customize the Photon.

So I scanned the code and from what I can see it appears to be the case. Where do you get the interface (hardware) to do the flash? I had a serial adapter for the TSDZ2. I see many instances of where people have updated the Photon firmware but no how-tos. Can someone point me in the right direction?

Also the TSDZ2 had firmware for the display and firmware for the motor itself. Is this the same? Being lazy - easier to ask than research.

There may be a hardware interface hidden inside the motor, but for us users, firmware updates are done over bluetooth. The app downloads the file during or just before the update and isn't (easily) visible to the user, however, there does also appear to be the ability to select a local file, but this feature is password protected - I assume CYC will need to give users a password to access this.

For normal use by normal users, the update process is easy and a lot less challenging than finding or buying a cable, connecting, finding files etc. I think in many ways CYC got a small part of this right. Locking down the local file thing isn't something I'm happy about.

 

[Epithemeus]

32531 worked for me for the firmware password. Some lovely person on the high voltage discord channel got the number who knows how.

Edit: I haven't actually tried to upload a file having not built the source. However the password at least got me into the file select screen.

 

[hindesite]

32531 worked for me for the firmware password. Some lovely person on the high voltage discord channel got the number who knows how.

Edit: I haven't actually tried to upload a file having not built the source. However the password at least got me into the file select screen.

Do you seriously mean that there was only one password for everyone on that firmware version? That is pretty shocking - why bother? Makes CYC look very amateur. At least it wasn't 80085

Update: that number seems to work for me, too. To the file select stage anyway.

 

[Epithemeus]

Do you seriously mean that there was only one password for everyone on that firmware version? That is pretty shocking - why bother? Makes CYC look very amateur. At least it wasn't 80085

Yeah I was expecting it to be a hash of the serial or something else traceable. Though the app does have access to the serial number already and you'd have to send a message to the server anyway, so it could just send it when the generic password is entered. Though that would be easily stopped by blocking the app from the net. Unless they set a flag somewhere in memory and then resend when they get internet again. But that could be stopped by clearing app memory before reconnecting... My brain could probably keep going on this for hours.

If I ever get around to custom firmware I'll probably set up a packet sniffer, at the very least to satisfy my curiosity.

 

[hindesite]

SW102 Battery Level Indicator

My battery level indicator on my SW102 display has stopped working. Until a few weeks ago, the number of bars shown did roughly correlate to the indicated battery voltage. However, now the battery voltage stills shows as changing, the gauge only shows 5 bars (ie, full) whether the indicated voltage is 59V or 48V - in fact a couple of days ago the gauge was showing 5 bars when the BMS shut down due to low voltage.

This is strange, since there hasn't been any firmware updates or any changes to the system that might have caused this behaviour to start happening, and its very annoying to be unable to assess the battery state on longer rides.

Has anybody else noticed this, or know of the fix?

Update:

The SW102 battery voltage setting had reverted to 36v, this is strange as I set this during initial installation months ago, and haven't even looked at that since. Wheel size and auto-off settings had not changed.

 

[raylo32]

After a few months break for knee replacement surgery I got my Photon bike out for a ride a couple days ago. It worked perfectly and, damn, that was fun. My new knee isn't strong enough yet for a plain pedal bike so the Photon it is. It will be a great rehab tool for anyone getting this done.... although if it breaks or the battery dies with any significant hills to get home, I'll be phoning a friend. And, unfortunately, we are getting into the heart of winter so riding opportunities will likely be few and far between.

 

[Janez_kocjan]

That would be nice, but a motor capable of that will need to be a big ~13 pound lump like the BBSHD. Current Photon is a good compromise of power, weight and efficiency for bike pedalers. I'd like to have one bike with a BBSHD with torque sense. But that's not ever gonna happen.

New Torque M435 M635 750w 1000w Bafang Mid Drive Motor Ultra Ebike Conversion Kit With Battery Option - Buy Bafang M635,Bafang Ultra 52 Volt,Bafang M620 Motor Product on Alibaba.com are you sure

 

[raylo32]

Yes, I am sure... about the lumpiness, anyway. The M635 IS a big lump... but I'd buy one and give it a try if I was sure it would work with my existing non-Bafang-canbus batteries. So, I am not sure that this is a viable choice for many of us with lots of legacy open source gear.

New Torque M435 M635 750w 1000w Bafang Mid Drive Motor Ultra Ebike Conversion Kit With Battery Option - Buy Bafang M635,Bafang Ultra 52 Volt,Bafang M620 Motor Product on Alibaba.com are you sure

 

[pwd]

... Knowing that the outrunner motor on CYC photon has a different structure compared to hub motor adding ferrofluid might not be entirely possible.

Doesn't the fact that this motor is an out runner make it a prime candidate for Statorade (ferrofluid)? Or is there some other factor that prevents the use of a ferrofluid in the Photon?

 

[Axelwik]

First post here.

Almost finished with a Photon installation on my ten year old GT hard tail mountain bike. Pretty straightforward, and I've gotten it to the point where It can be ridden without the battery connected. Awaiting an XT90 female connector for the battery, then with a little soldering and heat-shrink it will be done.

I mounted a 48-volt, 20-amp battery (from Amazon; good reviews) on the rear rack wrapped with some of the closed-cell foam that it came in and then wrapped the bundle with electrical tape. Kinda looks like a bomb, so I put it into a blue nylon sack and secured it to the rear rack with a couple stainless band clamps with dual-wall shrink tubing covering the bands. The battery is a little heavy and may be more than I need, so might eventually get something half the size.

Went from a big chainring of 38 to 42 on the Photon, so had to add some chain. The nice people at the local bike shop (Fat Tire in Albuquerque) gave me some extra chain for free. Also, since I'm a motorcyclist, went with a half twist grip throttle. Don't know if I'll use the throttle much - if not it will be disconnected. A friend says he uses the throttle on his e bike all the time at stop lights, but as a life-long cyclist don't know if I'll need it (be in the proper gear before stopping!).

Anyway, it went well pedaling up and down the street. There doesn't seem to be any additional friction from the electric drive when pedaling on human power alone. Rides just like a regular bike (albeit a heavier bike). The bike has a 10-speed cassette and the chain line is slightly off-center toward the smaller cogs, but not bad.

 

[Epithemeus]

Doesn't the fact that this motor is an out runner make it a prime candidate for Statorade (ferrofluid)? Or is there some other factor that prevents the use of a ferrofluid in the Photon?

In a hub motor, you have the stator, airgap, then the rotor and magnets, with the rotor being the outer shell of the motor (with the spokes attached to it)

In the case of the photon, you have the stator, airgap, rotor with magnets, then a second gap, then the outside motor case. So you really have two gaps to fill. Given the motor case isn't magnetic though, I can't see ferrofluid staying in the outer gap. You'd be better off oil filling it, but then you get fluid drag.

 

[pwd]

Ah, thank you. I didn't realize there was a second air gap. That seems like a poor design. That explains it.

 

[carlhirsch]

Once upon a time CYC was promising to add Gates belt sprockets to the Photon. Has there been any news on that front?

I bought one without realizing it wasn't suited for an upcoming belt build and it'll probably be quite awhile before I've got a chain frame on hand. I just can't love the versions with exposed chainrings like the X1. Hopefully the Proton supports 104BCD.