CYC PHOTON

[Atak_Snajpera]

Can you record output from the app? I'm curious how fast those temps raise to warning levels.

 

[nervagon]

Can you record output from the app? I'm curious how fast those temps raise to warning levels.

I was over 60C motor temp before I even started the climb. This ride was a shit-show. Never used the throttle, and PAS was limited to 700W. Unimpressed.

 

[Chalo]

I was over 60C motor temp before I even started the climb. This ride was a shit-show. Never used the throttle, and PAS was limited to 700W. Unimpressed.

It is what it is. In this case, small and built to a price point.

I'd much rather haul 10kg of motor I never have to worry about than 5kg of motor that makes me monitor it to prevent overheating.

 

[nervagon]

It is what it is. In this case, small and built to a price point.

I'd much rather haul 10kg of motor I never have to worry about than 5kg of motor that makes me monitor it to prevent overheating.

Agreed. But I think the solution could be limiting it to never go above 500W. It is a 500W motor.

But even that won’t prevent this motor from literally melting in hot weather. It’s not even hot yet.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

That's the price you pay for having small outrunner motor. Air is not great when IT comes to transfering heat on motor case. I wont be surprised if bigger photon's brother will be a inrunner.

 

[nervagon]

And I need to comment on the shitty thermal/power management system of the CYC Photon. It is really hard to maintain steady power output from your legs and cadence with the power output of the motor jumping around in a spasm. I would almost rather just limit the damn thing to 250W just to avoid that dance while riding.

And yeah, 4 more pounds will get you a capable motor that won't spaz on you when you need it. Worth it.

 

[neptronix]

I think the problem is they market it as a 750w rated motor and a lot of vendors have called it a 1000w motor.

Another thing is, CYC's mid drive kits usually have very high efficiency motors inside. Buyers probably expected the same quality/efficiency.

 

[hindesite]

r

Well, the photon still suffered runaway temps and down-throttled.

Here's my power settings:

View attachment 353306

and here's my screengrab during my climb:

View attachment 353307

It is hard capture the throttled power levels because it doesn't stay constant... it bounces around while trying to keep from melting, but the lowest that the motor down-throttled to was 495W.

This is a 500W nominal motor.

I think it would be worth your while to screen record the entire ride and pass that to CYC for interpretation (though in my experience there's plenty of people who will offer an opinion here for free). You never know, maybe they will identify that your motor is an anomaly. The problem with a static screenshot is that I think your temp is way too high for the power indicated but I can't see what happened previously. Running continuously at 600W I wouldn't even break 60C, especially at that cadence where it should be fairly efficient.

Does the motor casing ever feel hot? Maybe this is just a faulty temp sensor. My Controller temp would be comparable to yours, and I guess that is a fair reflection of the case temp.

For extra points you could feed the video into ChatGPT4o and get back .csv files, graphs and it will point out the interesting bits for you as well

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

I didn't know that chatgpt is so advanced that IT can built csv from video. In the past i was using ocr tools to convert numbers from video to text. I still have a script which uses ffmpeg, avisynth script and teseract. GitHub - tesseract-ocr/tesseract: Tesseract Open Source OCR Engine (main repository)

 

[tomholz]

@nervagon:
I would also suppose: There is something wrong with your particular Photon.
Similar as raylo32 wrote, I also only can hit thermal throttling when using throttle in race mode (2000W). When doing pedal assist on my MTB, I hardly come above 60°C. Yesterday for example, on a tour with my family, I even had a trailer with our dog behind my bike, and there were some steep climbs where my wife with her Shimano STEPS 500W had to use full power (500W) to keep 23-25kmh, and I with Photon and dog-trailer was below 60°C, still lot of headroom left.
I also would say: For eMTB, there is no better motor than Photon. Similar precision in torque-assist as Shimano or Bosch, but with the option to do short 2000W bursts for some extra-fun.....

 

[hindesite]

I didn't know that chatgpt is so advanced that IT can built csv from video. In the past i was using ocr tools to convert numbers from video to text. I still have a script which uses ffmpeg, avisynth script and teseract. GitHub - tesseract-ocr/tesseract: Tesseract Open Source OCR Engine (main repository)

Next month it could probably even open a discussion with CYC, negotiate a replacement and organise shipping. The growth in this area is way past exponential.

But still cant fit the replacement or ride the bike (though it could generate a video of that for you)..

 

[jalapenoBaconwrap]

And I need to comment on the shitty thermal/power management system of the CYC Photon. It is really hard to maintain steady power output from your legs and cadence with the power output of the motor jumping around in a spasm. I would almost rather just limit the damn thing to 250W just to avoid that dance while riding.

And yeah, 4 more pounds will get you a capable motor that won't spaz on you when you need it. Worth it.

Are you using the throttle? My understanding is the throttle is Not limited by the mode settings. Which means your throttling in unrestricted mode? But I could be way off base

 

[hindesite]

There is Toseven DM02 4kg

This is Photon:

Small size gives great ground clearance. It barely protrudes past the 34T chainring. For some people, that is far more important than being able to run at 1500W.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

This is Photon:

Small size gives great ground clearance. It barely protrudes past the 34T chainring. For some people, that is far more important than being able to run at 1500W.

I still can't figure out why this chinese motor is more expensive than for example german motors

Motors for e-bikes | Biketec Europe GmbH

Order e-bike motors online for specialist dealers now. Technical information✓ Pictures✓ Simple and comprehensive service✓ Best quality✓.

fit-ebike.com

1200 euro vs 400 euro. Paying 3x times more for couple of cm does not make sense at all. Thank you and good bye.

 

[raylo32]

These hater threads crack me up. I have had a TSDZ2 (with cooling mod) and now CYC Photon on my Cannondale F1000 with 1.75" city treaded tires. With either of these "terrible motors" I can go out and ride my rolling 30 mile loop with 2000' of climbing at a 25 MPH average if I try... which means pedaling at my maximum spun out RPM in top gear for most of it and climbing many hills, some short and very steep and some longer ~5% at 15MPH or more. In spite of how "terrible" they are both motors have zero issues with this, even in 90F+ ambient. While it would be fun to zip around at 35-40 MPH continuously on throttle a motor with more continuous power than 750W is essentially USELESS to me in this use case since I am a pedaler using the torque sensor on less than max assist level, and I am still limited in speed by the bike's gearing. IOW power more than ~750W for me is really only useable on throttle, which is just not how I ride.

Having said all that, sure, if your use case is riding fast up long continuous steep grades in hot conditions on max assist, look elsewhere. Go get the BBSHD with lame PAS. All these motors have their own characteristics and limitations. Pick your poison. But if your selection doesn't meet your expectations that doesn't mean it is terrible or not perfectly suitable for many others.

 

[nervagon]

In the latest Photon video on the CYC channel they stated that the most efficient power level for the Photon is 700W. Well, I just tried it limited to 700W on a normal ride and it shit the bed. So I don’t know what to make of that other than this motor is simply not what they claim, or I have a defective unit. But I paid Apple prices to have a system that just works, and my experience with the vendor I bought the photon from has not been good. So the best way to keep my sanity is to just choose a more capable motor.

 

[nervagon]

Are you using the throttle? My understanding is the throttle is Not limited by the mode settings. Which means your throttling in unrestricted mode? But I could be way off base

I am not using throttle, but regardless I have throttle limited to 700w as well. I am treating the motor with the same delicate care as a newborn baby.

 

[nervagon]

Starting to feel like Tesla owners lounge in here to be frank.

 

[raylo32]

Sounds more like the TSDZ2 haters lounge now morphing into CYC! ;0. BTW, I hate Tesla.

 

[Chalo]

All these motors have their own characteristics and limitations. Pick your poison. But if your selection doesn't meet your expectations that doesn't mean it is terrible or not perfectly suitable for many others.

Yeah! Some systems are perfectly suitable for people who enjoy their stuff broken and undependable. Don't judge.

 

[raylo32]

The TSDZ2 hater awakes! Meanwhile mine never broke in use. Go figure. I did break that teeny janky torque sensor wire once while doing some maintenance... that probably didn't actually need to be done.

Yeah! Some systems are perfectly suitable for people who enjoy their stuff broken and undependable. Don't judge.

 

[Mongo]

Yeah! Some systems are perfectly suitable for people who enjoy their stuff broken and undependable. Don't judge.

"Don't judge." Really Chalo? Do you own one of these drives? Have you ever worked on one? Have you even ridden a bike equipped with one?

My two Photon motors have held up fine and work very well, as have as my Alfine hubs driven by mid drive motors. Both ridden on hot summer days, for many miles.

I'd much rather haul 10kg of motor I never have to worry about than 5kg of motor that makes me monitor it to prevent overheating.

There's a percentage of ALL of these motor systems that is either initially defective or fails - even the 10kg of whatever brand/type your motor system is.

 

[raylo32]

Yup, if you recall I had a defective SW102 display with mine and it took a couple of months to get replaced. Really pissed me off. I also have a friend who got a pair of Photons for he and his wife and his had a bad controller. He was pissed, of course, but they sent him a new one and he said it was a bear to replace. But now they are really enjoying their kits. Yeah, that stuff shouldn't happen, but it does.

"Don't judge." Really Chalo? Do you own one of these drives? Have you ever worked on one? Have you even ridden a bike equipped with one?

My two Photon motors have held up fine and work very well, as have as my Alfine hubs driven by mid drive motors. Both ridden on hot summer days, for many miles.

There's a percentage of ALL of these motor systems that is either initially defective or fails - even the 10kg of whatever brand/type your motor system is.

 

[neptronix]

Here's something to consider.

Nervagon is running this on a cargo bike ( not known for stellar aerodynamics ), he's a large framed individual, and his riding position is fairly upright.

The bike's weight, geometry, tire choices, and riding position can vary the load at a given speed by hundreds of watts.
That in itself could create enough variance that the motor overheats versus not.

In this case, the bike is being operated right at it's supposed nominal rating. A nominal rating should be based around a 24 hour use at that wattage. If we're overheating at that wattage in the course of minutes, then the nominal rating is incorrect.

I user with a known good motor should reproduce what nervagon is doing - if they can, and the motor doesn't overheat, then we could say with pretty good certainty that nervagon's motor is faulty. Otherwise we're arguing theoreticals without proper information.

 

[Mongo]

I (a?) user with a known good motor should reproduce what nervagon is doing - if they can, and the motor doesn't overheat, then we could say with pretty good certainty that nervagon's motor is faulty. Otherwise we're arguing theoreticals without proper information.

I've not got a similar climb near me, and believe that it would take riding along side @nervagon to appropriately match all of the conditions. Sorry no, I can't afford to relocate at this time.

My terrain is mildly rolling (less than 500' elevation changes) stuff, with a few short duration bastard hills, on paved roads or trails.

It was a 1 mile climb up a 10% grade at 8mph, and the motor hit 89.9C degrees and throttled down to 350W on a 75F mild day.

Not directly comparable, but I've run both of my Photons as fast as they'll pull the bikes (unlimited 2kw setting, and just past 30mph), and have never experienced overtemp power pullbacks that severe. I ride relatively upright, and at the time weighed mid-350s. I have to work at getting the motors to roll off power at all.

And long 10% climbs is precisely why you would choose a mid drive over a hub motor. If a mid drive can't handle that... well, the motor sucks IMO.

I agree, but based on what little riding experience I can compare I suspect your motor has a problem and it needs to be stuffed up Electrify Bike's collective butts.