CYC PHOTON

[ornias]

I would say that tsdz2 is durable when used with some basic ebike rules in mind . primo - it's your support but it won't do your job for you . if you pull 200 300w from it you get decent power to climb up hill and use 600 700w only for steep and short attacks . 34t chainring is a must and 50t cassette is rather a standart size these days . of course I speak in terms if mtb and enduro mountain trips . if used for asphalt you basically need thermal control with 60C throttling and 90C cut off and you pretty much set . of course you still have to give relative power to use bike as a bike not emoto

not to say that tsdz2 is the king in terms of price and part availability. if photon will exceed this price substantially I see no market for it . it can be more expensive but not much more . especially given that fact of using proprietary chainring what might turn out to be deal breaker for ppl like me

Some steel background: With steel, in contrast to aluminium, as long as you keep within spec you can load a force on it as many times if you like. If you exceed spec it starts to get damage. That's also one of the good reasons to use steel for things like axles.

So well, the circlip groves are going to more-easily break under emtb loads (primarily vertical impacts, combined with tordial loads). As the area's those groves are in, are basically "focussing" the forces on the shaft, causing it to exceed the stress limits.

In terms of thermals:
The thermals are gimped on purpose (for EU 250W rating), because with fixed heat transfer the motor is capable of running 500w+ almost continuesly. But temperature sensors are adviceable anyway. (according to a polish forum where they did tests with different ways of fixing heat transfer)

So I do see a market for the Photon:
People that want a TSDZ2 level motor, without the flaws that "just works".
But I doubt people are willing to pay so much that they could've gotten a TSDZ2, have it upgraded/fixed and having having spare change to have it serviced bi-monthly for 2 years.

 

[Bengy22]

Got an email from BicycleMotorWorks telling me about a coupon and in the bottom I noticed some Photon coverage. They posted two videos on the motor I wasn't aware of. The first video has Matt from bicyclemotorworks giving has impressions and showing off the app a little bit, the display and some riding footage at the end that showcases the noise really well. Nothing really that wasn't already covered though other than that he feels its inline with the bbs02. Second video is just straight riding footage, but a fair amount of wind noise so hard to hear the motor. Feel like the important things in my mind still haven't been answered, when is the release / webpage go live (seriously cyc still no webpage update after all these videos and the "soon" teasers?) And I want more data on how the motor handles the temps / power. From the other video shown that was taken down and also Matts mentioning a motor temp of 120 (thermal throttling) after 6-8 miles I'm interested in how the cyc compares to the bbshd or bbs02 temp / heat wise.

I made sure to put both videos in the waybackmachine incase cyc takes them down like the other video. Links to the videos:

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfACSui7iZc
2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2_2lXn4SPo

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Unboxing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9Rp5-fwW4o

Btw. I'm surprised that Photon reaches such high temps. My X1 Stealth barely reached 50C in hot summer day (30C). Now in late autumn it is cool as ICE

 

[1boris]

looks like a small motor with low gear reduction,the oposite of what you want for power.So no suprise if it overheats easily

 

[Matze_Senpai]

i hope cyc release this drive soon . i need to see the price of this drive ! i hope its not over 600€...
but judging from the looks of it and the weight, this looks like a tsdz2 competitor instead of a bbshd replacement which i hoped they bring out..

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

i hope cyc release this drive soon . i need to see the price of this drive ! i hope its not over 600€...
but judging from the looks of it and the weight, this looks like a tsdz2 competitor instead of a bbshd replacement which i hoped they bring out..

It will cost 1000+ euro. Forget about 600E.

 

[Matze_Senpai]

i hope cyc release this drive soon . i need to see the price of this drive ! i hope its not over 600€...
but judging from the looks of it and the weight, this looks like a tsdz2 competitor instead of a bbshd replacement which i hoped they bring out..

It will cost 1000+ euro. Forget about 600E.

thats way too expensive imo (at least for me) well guess i have to wait for bafang to update their mid drive conversion kits... if that will ever happen??

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Bafang will never give you torque sensor in DIY motor. That would only hurt sales for bafang OEM motors.

 

[szkuba]

Indeed such high price is really questionable. Nearly as pricey as regular CYC motors but kind of weaker. The only benefit is then one piece solution design.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

If you haven't noticed we have inflation in europe between 10%-20%!

Photon (full kit) will cost 1000$ (with shipping to EU) on official website. Then you must multiply that by 1.06 (import duty) and then ~1.2 (VAT)

 

[pxl666]

Life will tell them if this price level is sellable or not . I doubt 1000$ will have many buyers . motor would have been much more robust for such price. 1000w easily

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Stealth costs the same and people still buy it. If I didn't have already stealth gen.1 I would buy photon. No extra chain, simpler installation,larger chainrings (50T), quieter.

 

[pxl666]

ppl buy stealth to feed 5kw into it . as I said . life will tell

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Since when does bac855 allow such high power in cyc X1 stealth? 1500W nominal (2000W peak)

 

[ornias]

looks like a small motor with low gear reduction,the oposite of what you want for power.So no suprise if it overheats easily

I've just got feedback from CYC:
The Photon is 250w nominal (continues) power and EU EN15194:2017 compliant.
That explains the overheat, as EN15194 requires motors to overheat on loads higher than 250w(+ a small margin) for longer durations.

So two notes:
- The overheat is a carefull design choice
- The claimed "firmware" power settings are peak power for short(er) durations.

So no: It will not be considerable more powerfull than the TSDZ2 with all known community modifications in place.

 

[pxl666]

so I do not see bright future for this motor

 

[1boris]

The 250w EN15194 motors like Bosch,Yamaha and others dont have problems with overheating.Most of them peaks about 800w with no problems.The 250w TQ motor peaks around 1200w and no overheating problem.
The problem with overheat is poor design,Low internal gearing and small stator/rotor.The point of mid drive is to not overheat when climbing

 

[szkuba]

I have read the previous EN regulation. And overheat means that one hour run with more than 250W motor output leads to temperature increase. Even if this will be 1deg increase I guess. So definately this is kind of play for production motors to prove street limits but still provide powerfull burst when needed.
So those powerfull motors just named like Yamaha, Bosch and R.I.P. TQ120 can peak for short time duration and have thermal rollback implemented for sure. Unfortunately we dont have the test bed to prove it.

 

[ornias]

The 250w EN15194 motors like Bosch,Yamaha and others dont have problems with overheating.Most of them peaks about 800w with no problems.The 250w TQ motor peaks around 1200w and no overheating problem.
The problem with overheat is poor design,Low internal gearing and small stator/rotor.The point of mid drive is to not overheat when climbing

Make somethings clear:
ALL of these motors will overheat when running continuesly at more than 250w. This means that the cooling is not sufficient to keep running at high wattage. This is required by law/regulation/standards.

How all those manufacturers deal with this, and I expect this is going to include CYC, is lowering power when the temperature goes above a certain point.

Just because a motor overheats when running 10 minutes at 500W, does not mean it will actually run at 500W. A manufacturer can chose to, instead, run it for 5 minutes at 500W and fall back to 250W. (simplification.

In short:
The overheat is there.
However it will not overheat because it has a temperature sensor.

THis is the primary flaw with the TSDZ2: It lacks a temperature sensor. With a temperature sensor, you can run as many watts through it as you want (within reason ofc).

 

[ornias]

I have read the previous EN regulation. And overheat means that one hour run with more than 250W motor output leads to temperature increase. Even if this will be 1deg increase I guess. So definately this is kind of play for production motors to prove street limits but still provide powerfull burst when needed.
So those powerfull motors just named like Yamaha, Bosch and R.I.P. TQ120 can peak for short time duration and have thermal rollback implemented for sure. Unfortunately we dont have the test bed to prove it.

This is correct, and sadly hidden away into the references of EN15194 (old and new).

The nominal wattages, is the amount of watts continued load, at which the motor temperature does not increase anymore (up to the max safe operating temperature). The equilibrium between heat produced by running and cooling of the motor.

You can be certain those motors and bikes are actually certified by external parties to comply to EN15194 though, even the TSDZ2 is.

 

[1boris]

The 250w EN15194 motors like Bosch,Yamaha and others dont have problems with overheating.Most of them peaks about 800w with no problems.The 250w TQ motor peaks around 1200w and no overheating problem.
The problem with overheat is poor design,Low internal gearing and small stator/rotor.The point of mid drive is to not overheat when climbing

Make somethings clear:
ALL of these motors will overheat when running continuesly at more than 250w. This means that the cooling is not sufficient to keep running at high wattage. This is required by law/regulation/standards.

How all those manufacturers deal with this, and I expect this is going to include CYC, is lowering power when the temperature goes above a certain point.

Just because a motor overheats when running 10 minutes at 500W, does not mean it will actually run at 500W. A manufacturer can chose to, instead, run it for 5 minutes at 500W and fall back to 250W. (simplification.

In short:
The overheat is there.
However it will not overheat because it has a temperature sensor.

THis is the primary flaw with the TSDZ2: It lacks a temperature sensor. With a temperature sensor, you can run as many watts through it as you want (within reason ofc).

Sorry to read that you really dont know what you are talking about.I have had several of these motors climbing long steep mountain roads road here in Norway at 110kg.They do not overheat.250w is nothing.The TQ 250w motor is almost as powerful as the Bafang Ultra.
The Tq motor is used in the M1 SPITZING and can do 75 kmh

 

[1boris]

Take a look at this video and tell me this is a no better motor than the shitty Tsdz2 motor.Look around 19 min and 30 sek where he easily climb a 38% hill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Oib27_5SEg&ab_channel=CitrusCyclesLtd.

 

[1boris]

Take a look at this video and tell me this is a no better motor than the shitty Tsdz2 motor.Look around 19 min and 30 sek where he easily climb a 38% hill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Oib27_5SEg&ab_channel=CitrusCyclesLtd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3wbkdyBWT4&ab_channel=RobRidesEMTB

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

I can't wait to see real life test regarding overheating of this motor. For example how long you can ride at constant 500W in 20C ambient.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

so I do not see bright future for this motor

I must agree with you.