CYC PHOTON

[Epithemeus]

A lot of talk about firmware and it's restrictions. Surely I can't be the only one who found the little disclaimer on CYC's privacy policy?
"CYC MOTOR LTD's X-Controller Series' hardware and software are under the GPL V3 open-source license. VESC® is a trademark and copyright of Mr. Benjamin Vedder. For more information, visit The GNU General Public License v3.0 - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation. CYC MOTOR LTD's source code can be found at CYC-MOTOR - Overview. Different firmware can be loaded onto these controllers."
As far as I know the photon controller is in the X series. A quick ctrl F in the source code in the github link shows lots of hits for Photon at least. Maybe somebody with time and know how could try and build the custom version of vesc tool they provide and play around? (My precious spare time is currently being spent with a certain new Zelda game, maybe when I get bored with that )
Anyway, makes me pretty hopeful that there will be an OSF firmware someday.

 

[steve s]

Here is my photon build on a marin muirwoods frame. 35# without battery
50 t chaining
11-40 shimano 8 speed cassette
Friction shifter
700x37 schwalbe marathons.
Shimano mt200 hydraulic brakes.
I love this motor so far! It's definetly more efficient than my bbs02 and the torque sensing gives a way nicer ride. The app definitely isn't perfect but works good enough. Unrestricted level 5 range is 25 miles level 3 about 35 miles on 52v 8ah battery on semi hilly roads trying to keep speed around 20mph

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Can you show other side with 50T chainring visible?

 

[steve s]

Can you show other side with 50T chainring visible?

Sure standby I'm heading out for a ride now and will take a pic.

 

[steve s]

Can you show other side with 50T chainring visible?

 

[raylo32]

What top speed can you cruise at on the flats with that 50t in level 5? Be aware that setting it to have 5 levels doesn't make the intermediate levels proportional. The firmware is messed up and some levels seem to be duplicates or otherwise not proportional. The only way I found to have properly spaced proportional levels it to keep it at the native 3. Hoping that will get fixed in the future.. btu not sure how we can get the firmware update if and when they make one??

Here is my photon build on a marin muirwoods frame. 35# without battery
50 t chaining
11-40 shimano 8 speed cassette
Friction shifter
700x37 schwalbe marathons.
Shimano mt200 hydraulic brakes.
I love this motor so far! It's definetly more efficient than my bbs02 and the torque sensing gives a way nicer ride. The app definitely isn't perfect but works good enough. Unrestricted level 5 range is 25 miles level 3 about 35 miles on 52v 8ah battery on semi hilly roads trying to keep speed around 20mph

 

[raylo32]

This is exactly what we need. The OSF guys really know what they are doing and their touch would make this motor perfect and put some power back into owners' hands..

Anyway, makes me pretty hopeful that there will be an OSF firmware someday.

 

[steve s]

What top speed can you cruise at on the flats with that 50t in level 5? Be aware that setting it to have 5 levels doesn't make the intermediate levels proportional. The firmware is messed up and some levels seem to be duplicates or otherwise not proportional. The only way I found to have properly spaced proportional levels it to keep it at the native 3. Hoping that will get fixed in the future.. btu not sure how we can get the firmware update if and when they make one??

I haven't done any speed tests with the throttle ( I haven't even installed it) but I can get 30+mph on the flats but the cadence is pretty high and have not been able to get close to 2000watts if I remember correctly I hit about 1500. I'm mostly using the 50t ring to stay in bigger cogs and keep chain wear to a minimum and cruise about 20 mph.
Yes at five levels it it definitely not proportional and only seems to limit max power.

 

[raylo32]

I'm not interested in speed with throttle. Just pedaling with 50t chain ring, 11 or 12t cassette cog, and 700c wheels to see if you can spin that out at a high cadence and mph. That will be my next build on a gravel bike if I can regain confidence enough to order another Photon. I get spun out on my MTB gearing with 42t chainring, 11t cog, and 26" wheels before the motor reaches full potential.

I haven't done any speed tests with the throttle ( I haven't even installed it) but I can get 30+mph on the flats but the cadence is pretty high and have not been able to get close to 2000watts if I remember correctly I hit about 1500. I'm mostly using the 50t ring to stay in bigger cogs and keep chain wear to a minimum and cruise about 20 mph.
Yes at five levels it it definitely not proportional and only seems to limit max power.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

I'm not interested in speed with throttle. Just pedaling with 50t chain ring, 11 or 12t cassette cog, and 700c wheels to see if you can spin that out at a high cadence and mph. That will be my next build on a gravel bike if I can regain confidence enough to order another Photon. I get spun out on my MTB gearing with 42t chainring, 11t cog, and 26" wheels before the motor reaches full potential.

You can calculate that easily!
example for Cadence 100 rpm
0.7*3.14*(50/11)*(100/60)*3.6=~60 km/h

 

[raylo32]

Sure, calculated is one thing. But what speed can the motor keep pushing?? I can't reach the limit with my gearing.

You can calculate that easily!
example for Cadence 100 rpm
0.7*3.14*(50/11)*(100/60)*3.6=~60 km/h

 

[richj8990]

Oh, I'd say that my TSDZ2 was reliable. Or at least reliable enough considering the cost. Never broke, never left me stranded, repair parts are plentiful and cheap, etc. Yeah, I'd prefer more robust hardware and especially an ISIS spindle like on Photon. But still... it works. Especially on OSF.

I mean a double-chained motor, with a motor sprocket + chainwheel + shorter chain, and the normal chain having the usual chainring + cassette but it's being driven by the 1st chain.

I believe TSDZ2 is one single-chained.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Sure, calculated is one thing. But what speed can the motor keep pushing?? I can't reach the limit with my gearing.

To maintain (on flat and no wind):
40 km/h - you need at least 400W of mechanical power
50 km/h - 800W
60 km/h - 1300W.

Cycling Wattage Calculator

If you're curious about what power you produce while cycling and how it depends on your position, speed, or even tire type, give this cycling wattage calculator a try! 🚴

www.omnicalculator.com

 

[steve s]

I'm not interested in speed with throttle. Just pedaling with 50t chain ring, 11 or 12t cassette cog, and 700c wheels to see if you can spin that out at a high cadence and mph. That will be my next build on a gravel bike if I can regain confidence enough to order another Photon. I get spun out on my MTB gearing with 42t chainring, 11t cog, and 26" wheels before the motor reaches full potential.

I haven't been able to spin it out on flat ground but over 30mph in 50-11 the cadence is definitely up there.

 

[raylo32]

Running the numbers with my gravel bike which is similar config to yours, with the 50t chainring and 11t cog, and 35mm tires 90 pedal RPM would get me about 36MPH. That is well within my pedaling abilities. I'd like to try that and have the display on motor power to see what it takes... and then to see how motor temp reacts. On my Photon converted 26" hardtail MTB that same speed requires ~120 RPM. I have done that in short bursts but that is not sustainable.

BTW, here is a good online calculator that is much easier to use than doing the math manually:

Bike Cadence and Speed Calculator

Calculate the bike cadence or speed, entering the wheels and gearing parameters.

www.omnicalculator.com

I haven't been able to spin it out on flat ground but over 30mph in 50-11 the cadence is definitely up there.

 

[raylo32]

Just another FYI for anyone considering a Photon, especially those coming from a TSDZ2... Photon does not have that clamp that locks the motor to the chainstays to keep it from rotating under power. So, the Photon motor body needs to be mounted so that it is rotated hard into the downtube... and under power the motor forces itself even harder in that direction. On my "beer can" Cannondale, running the motor without a standoff made some dents. Not a huge deal but something to be aware of. And, also on my Canonndale, the rear derailleur cable is mounted to the bottom of the downtube and under the BB shell. Photon pinches that and messes up shifting. Makes it sticky.

So, for a bike like this you need to make a standoff that keeps the motor off the frame and shift cable. I have been struggling with this a bit. I have made some custom standoffs on my 3D printer with a groove for the cable. I have made them out of semi flexible material which is great, and as tough as they are the motor ends up deforming them enough to make the shift cable stick. I have also made them out of high infill PETG, but the motor goes against them with such force that they break. Some of that is my design that hasn't yet gotten the clearances just right. You could probably fashion something out of wood that will work. But I am working to refine my 3D print design for my particular application. These would really be better made of nylon or ABS, I suppose, but you really need an enclosed printer to use those materials.

For a steel frame bike an alternative that should also work is to go ahead and mount Photon hard against the frame, but make a small Dremel groove in the Photon for the shift cable to pass through without getting pinched.

 

[steve s]

Running the numbers with my gravel bike which is similar config to yours, with the 50t chainring and 11t cog, and 35mm tires 90 pedal RPM would get me about 36MPH. That is well within my pedaling abilities. I'd like to try that and have the display on motor power to see what it takes... and then to see how motor temp reacts. On my Photon converted 26" hardtail MTB that same speed requires ~120 RPM. I have done that in short bursts but that is not sustainable.

BTW, here is a good online calculator that is much easier to use than doing the math manually:

[URL

Running the numbers with my gravel bike which is similar config to yours, with the 50t chainring and 11t cog, and 35mm tires 90 pedal RPM would get me about 36MPH. That is well within my pedaling abilities. I'd like to try that and have the display on motor power to see what it takes... and then to see how motor temp reacts. On my Photon converted 26" hardtail MTB that same speed requires ~120 RPM. I have done that in short bursts but that is not sustainable.

BTW, here is a good online calculator that is much easier to use than doing the math manually:

Bike Cadence and Speed Calculator

Calculate the bike cadence or speed, entering the wheels and gearing parameters.

www.omnicalculator.com

I am finding on flat ground even with high power the heat isn't bad it's only when you climb hills in a gear that's too high.

 

[steve s]

Running the numbers with my gravel bike which is similar config to yours, with the 50t chainring and 11t cog, and 35mm tires 90 pedal RPM would get me about 36MPH. That is well within my pedaling abilities. I'd like to try that and have the display on motor power to see what it takes... and then to see how motor temp reacts. On my Photon converted 26" hardtail MTB that same speed requires ~120 RPM. I have done that in short bursts but that is not sustainable.

BTW, here is a good online calculator that is much easier to use than doing the math manually:

Bike Cadence and Speed Calculator

Calculate the bike cadence or speed, entering the wheels and gearing parameters.

www.omnicalculator.com

I just did a couple speed runs on pretty flat ground. I was hitting 34mph @ 100rpm and pulling about 1500w temp climbed to 134f unfortunately there isn't a long flat near my morning ride to see if temp kept climbing.

 

[steve s]

Running the numbers with my gravel bike which is similar config to yours, with the 50t chainring and 11t cog, and 35mm tires 90 pedal RPM would get me about 36MPH. That is well within my pedaling abilities. I'd like to try that and have the display on motor power to see what it takes... and then to see how motor temp reacts. On my Photon converted 26" hardtail MTB that same speed requires ~120 RPM. I have done that in short bursts but that is not sustainable.

BTW, here is a good online calculator that is much easier to use than doing the math manually:

Bike Cadence and Speed Calculator

Calculate the bike cadence or speed, entering the wheels and gearing parameters.

www.omnicalculator.com

I just did a couple speed runs on pretty flat ground. I was hitting 34mph @ 100rpm and pulling about 1500w temp climbed to 134f unfortunately there isn't a long flat near my morning ride to see if temp kept climbing

 

[Mongo]

Just an FYI, I received a notification that CYC's ride control application has been updated (2.0 and renamed "Ride Control", so the icon sort order has changed).

I haven't gone through all of the app changes but there appears to be a firmware checker/download function/screen. There's also a dashboard landscape mode, but I notice that the font "clearance" needs tweaking, at least on my phone (Samsung). Maybe they've corrected the human power calculations. I'm using a 500C display on the new/second Photon build, so I don't have access to it (via the display anyway), and I don't use the phone app underway.

 

[hindesite]

Just an FYI, I received a notification that CYC's ride control application has been updated (2.0 and renamed "Ride Control", so the icon sort order has changed).

I haven't gone through all of the app changes but there appears to be a firmware checker/download function/screen. There's also a dashboard landscape mode, but I notice that the font "clearance" needs tweaking, at least on my phone (Samsung). Maybe they've corrected the human power calculations. I'm using a 500C display on the new/second Photon build, so I don't have access to it (via the display anyway), and I don't use the phone app underway.

Thanks, they didn't update the app, they released a new one FFS. So you won't even know there is an update if you are just looking at your play store app list, and after you install the new app you will have two identically named apps (CYC Ride Control) with identical black icons in the app management list (the old app icon is still pink on the app drawer/screen).

However it is a VAST improvement on the older app, with better readability and a better presentation of many of the settings. I'd say they've fixed 80% of my gripes about the original app (and there were dozens of issues with it). There is still some weird implementations or settings (like using number of cells for battery setting instead of nominal voltage) and AFAIK you still cannot enter wheel rolling circumference manually.

And yes, firmware update works fine, fast and appears to have worked, haven't test ridden yet. Controller induced acoustic motor noise still there.

Overall, good job CYC, thanks!

 

[raylo32]

I can't wait to try the firmware tool to see if it fixes my stuck wheel size problem. I wonder why that was omitted from the first version. Maybe it just wasn't ready, I suppose. Got the new app, but bike is at another location. I'll get to that Monday. If the firmware tool really works via BT that will be so much more convenient than pulling out the ST programmer.

Thanks, they didn't update the app, they released a new one FFS. So you won't even know there is an update if you are just looking at your play store app list, and after you install the new app you will have two identically named apps (CYC Ride Control) with identical black icons in the app management list (the old app icon is still pink on the app drawer/screen).

However it is a VAST improvement on the older app, with better readability and a better presentation of many of the settings. I'd say they've fixed 80% of my gripes about the original app (and there were dozens of issues with it). There is still some weird implementations or settings (like using number of cells for battery setting instead of nominal voltage) and AFAIK you still cannot enter wheel rolling circumference manually.

And yes, firmware update works fine, fast and appears to have worked, haven't test ridden yet. Controller induced acoustic motor noise still there.

Overall, good job CYC, thanks!

 

[hindesite]

I can't wait to try the firmware tool to see if it fixes my stuck wheel size problem. I wonder why that was omitted from the first version. Maybe it just wasn't ready, I suppose. Got the new app, but bike is at another location. I'll get to that Monday. If the firmware tool really works via BT that will be so much more convenient than pulling out the ST programmer.

Just bear in mind that this process (updating direct from the app and over bluetooth) removes any control for the user, over the firmware level installed. I've never used the ST programmer but I would assume that you have more control using that - however, most people just couldn't be bothered with doing that, or even know how, or that they can.

Edit: there is the ability to update firmware with a local file, but this is password protected, I assume CYC want to manage even that aspect.

 

[raylo32]

With the ST programmer you flash local files that you have downloaded from the source. For TSDZ2 can be OEM or OSF files. It is definitely outside what most "normal" people would do. We are not normal here on ES! . I don't necessarily need "control" over this for Photon, just the ability to flash their approved firmware. Latest will do just fine. And if my Photon already has the latest I hope it allows me to reflash since I have a broken firmware installation. I hope the new app allows me to do that.

Just bear in mind that this process (updating direct from the app and over bluetooth) removes any control for the user, over the firmware level installed. I've never used the ST programmer but I would assume that you have more control using that - however, most people just couldn't be bothered with doing that, or even know how, or that they can.

Edit: there is the ability to update firmware with a local file, but this is password protected, I assume CYC want to manage even that aspect.

 

[tomholz]

Also installed the new app and did a firmware update on the motor.
For me, this removed the acoustic noise that came from the motor/controller when standing still and having the motor enabled.
At this point I would like to give a word about using the Photon now for about ~300km:
Until now, I'm very satisfied with this system. I build it in a 2015 Canyon Nerve AL 8.9. Total weight with 760Wh battery (50+ amp current capability) is ~21kg.
For usage in a eMTB setup the motor is really nice: Reaction to torque control is very good: Direct, good proportional behavior, fast stop if human stops applying torque, gear changing during uphill can be done even better compared to Shimano or Bosch systems. Control in technical passages is excellent.
And looking at the power output: Having 2000W available as peak power is just fun , for such a small and light-weight motor....
And regarding the app: Certainly it is not perfect, but for me all function work until now, and compared to Bosch or Shimano, not bad at all I think.
Build quality seems very good to me. Didn't open the motor, but all visible is solid.
Bought mine via fasterbikes.eu, and they do a very good job regarding support and help.
So having them in between, I'm quite optimistic that any needed spare parts will be acquirable rather uncomplicated, at least letting some more months pass to get the Photon system some more in higher series volume.
But in summary I can say: CYC-Motor did a good job, the Photon is fun and precise usable eMTB machine...

One addon; Currently using the 34 chain ring, but will receive a 42 in the next days. The motor offers that much power, that the small gears are not really needed anymore (unless you want to ride with motor switched off completely). And on the other end, I'm missing some higher gears, as motor + human power offer enough power in sum to ride 50+ kmh even with an MTB having 29x2.6". So my adive here: Think twice if you really need 34 chain ring....